The rapture mucked my life up

Beorh · Sep 5, 2017

According to the touching testimony of erealmz, what more evidence do we need that Darbyism/Dispensationalism, which, after 1,800 years of Christianity suddenly discovered "the Rapture," is a lie of the Devil?

CrystalDragon · Sep 5, 2017

Beorh said:
According to the touching testimony of erealmz, what more evidence do we need that Darbyism/Dispensationalism, which, after 1,800 years of Christianity suddenly discovered "the Rapture," is a lie of the Devil?

I wouldn't say "a lie of the devil" more "a lie of the controlling members of the church".

Beorh · Sep 5, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
I wouldn't say "a lie of the devil" more "a lie of the controlling members of the church".

What's the difference?

CrystalDragon · Sep 5, 2017

Beorh said:
What's the difference?

"The controlling members of the church" are greedy power-hungry human beings.

Beorh · Sep 5, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
"The controlling members of the church" are greedy power-hungry human beings.

What--or should I say who--entices them to be greedy and power-hungry? I stand by my original conviction

Dave G. · Sep 5, 2017

There is a catching up, a taking away, the dead first, that is clearly written into the bible in several places. We either believe scripture or we don't. I'm not even going to bother quoting it because those who don't believe the scripture obviously don't read it either. They are probably hung up in denominational man made doctrine.

com7fy8 · Sep 5, 2017

erealmz said:
When I was a young Christian, I was taught that the world would one day end not long after Jesus came down from heaven to collect his followers. Being young and having an undeveloped mind, I really took this to heart and it wasn't in a good way.

A point of Rapture teaching is to not make such a big deal out of this world, but to take it with a grain of salt

Lucian Hodoboc · Sep 5, 2017

erealmz said:
Science is all we've got.

If all we've got is not satisfying, we must look for something else.

erealmz said:
I'm not going to sit around waiting for it to evolve when I can learn from it now.

It depends how you define "to learn from it". If you mean blindly accepting its limitations and agree with everything it says, then you will be its slave, not its master.

erealmz said:
You have to trust science and not give up on it otherwise it will never evolve and we will remain ignorant.

I disagree. Many of the major discoveries in scientific fields have been made when people did not trust what the science of their time said about certain aspects of reality and decided to investigate on their own.

erealmz said:
So far, based on probability, there is a very high chance that we will die,

Perhaps...

2045 Initiative

erealmz said:
a high chance that the world will end,

Define "world". Do you mean humankind or planet Earth?

erealmz said:
and at the very least, a well thought-out, educated guess that the universe will end.

There's also an educated guess (Stephen Hawking) that there are an infinity of parallel universes all existing at once and constantly new ones appearing.

erealmz said:
I base me knowledge on those odds and try to live my life accordingly.

The odds of us even existing are incredibly small.

erealmz said:
It's a shame that you only quoted that when there is so much more to my post.

Well, I was taught that if I don't have anything nice to say, I shouldn't say anything at all.

erealmz said:
But it begs the question, what do you base your knowledge on?

Nothing. There is no absolute knowledge to be had. Everything is relative. Jesus Himself said this: Matthew 19:26 . With God all things are possible. I wouldn't be surprised if everything we learned about Him from The Bible was altered, voluntarily or involuntarily, by humans. I wouldn't be surprised if the afterlife is completely different from what we imagine it to be.

Halbhh · Sep 5, 2017

erealmz said:
When I was a young Christian, I was taught that the world would one day end not long after Jesus came down from heaven to collect his followers. Being young and having an undeveloped mind, I really took this to heart and it wasn't in a good way.

I feared the idea of Jesus suddenly interrupting human life to impose his agenda in an overly-dramatic, highly-theatrical manner. I even had nightmares about it and it scared the crap out of me.

Here I was, just a little kid with a very anxious and curious mind. I had high hopes for my life. I couldn't wait to get out there and explore it. I could relate it to being at the entrance of a theme park, excited to experience the adventure that awaited you. Or starting a new video game were you couldn't wait to get past the linear, story-driven first half hour or so and explore the beautiful world at your own leisure.

There was so much I wanted to learn and do. So many places I wanted to see. I wanted to experience growing up and doing all the things I saw grown ups do. Yet the idea lingered over me that I would one day be robbed of my future and that it could happen at any instant.

I feared the rapture and would always get nervous whenever anyone would talk about it. I remember many times when I would just go to my room and sit there quietly while my mind tried to process the information and cope with the idea.

But eventually I started to learn about the world and how things really worked. The more I learned, the more that fear turned to anger. My hopes for my own life evolved into hopes for mankind. I was thrilled with the idea that we were exploring space and would one day reach the stars. Who the hell was god to take that away from us? That was my thought process.

The older I got, the more I opposed the idea of a rapture. I hated it. Though I still believed in God and a good chunk of the Bible, I was having trouble accepting the end-times that awaited us all. But in my mind, it WAS going to happen and there was nothing we could do to stop it. So I gave up.

I figured if God was going to judge this world and destroy everything, and if I was already saved because I accepted Jesus, then why should I care about my future? So I stopped caring.

I was about 13 when I realized this and it reflected in everything I did. From my attitude, to my schooling, to my social life. I didn't give a rat's hairless tail about any of it. I hated everyone and everything. I saw it as completely worthless and deserving of God's punishment.

Years later, after dropping out of school, picking up a criminal record, annihilating my social life and becoming a total hermit, I had a brush with attempted suicide. Details omitted for personal reasons.

After that, my life took a harsh downward spiral to the stone-cold bottom. This lasted a few years before I finally started to develope a secular mind. And once I did that, I found a freedom that I never knew existed. I was free to dream. Free to live. Free to rebuild my life. And that is what I've been doing ever since.

I'm not angry at myself for what I had to go through. I'm not angry at God. I'm not even angry at religion. But I will never again subject my mind to those doctrines. I have high hopes for the human race. I believe that we will one day explore the stars. If I was rich, I would fund that advancement as much as possible. I have high hopes for my life. I'm quietly working on climbing out of the hole I fell into and I feel better now than I've ever felt in my entire life.

I've heard from some people that the devil is confusing me. If that is true then i have one question for him: where the hell have you been all my life?

I feel free. I feel secure. I know I will die one day. I know the world will eventually come to an end. I know the universe will one day be destroyed. And I know that the only thing we can do about any of that is to live life as best as we can. Because these things will happen naturally and there is nothing we can do to convince nature to show us mercy. Just roll with it. Be the best you can be. Do what's right to everyone you meet and strive to be a good person.

If we do happen to get past the great filters that all intelligent life has to overcome, we can stand proud as a species who've conquered our existence. And if there is a God, I'm pretty sure he would be proud of us too.

Wow, I'm really sorry those crappy theories and guesses about the end times were preached to you!

I hate it that such profoundly wrong stuff was in your church.

I'm so sorry about that!

We only know for sure that believers that follow Christ will have eternal life in bliss.

We don't know much from the Bible about many precise details about the end times, and the language is intentionally metaphorical, and like a puzzle, and most will fail to unlock it. For example -- we don't know if the "new Earth" will be a total replacing of this Earth, which would fit the text perfectly, or just a total makeover of this Earth as it is, which would also fit the text perfectly. Either way, it's making the Earth perfect, like how it is already here at its best and best moments -- the most perfect moments here are a suggestive picture I think, my guess -- and making that perfection general everywhere. There is so much that isn't clearly known, and a person can find all sorts of theories about it, but they should not be preached from a pulpit nor taught as if a gospel. They should be taught saying "this is my total guess, about things I don't know, but here's my guess --...."

Halbhh · Sep 5, 2017

erealmz said:
When I was a young Christian, I was taught that the world would one day end not long after Jesus came down from heaven to collect his followers. Being young and having an undeveloped mind, I really took this to heart and it wasn't in a good way.

I feared the idea of Jesus suddenly interrupting human life to impose his agenda in an overly-dramatic, highly-theatrical manner. I even had nightmares about it and it scared the crap out of me.

Here I was, just a little kid with a very anxious and curious mind. I had high hopes for my life. I couldn't wait to get out there and explore it. I could relate it to being at the entrance of a theme park, excited to experience the adventure that awaited you. Or starting a new video game were you couldn't wait to get past the linear, story-driven first half hour or so and explore the beautiful world at your own leisure.

There was so much I wanted to learn and do. So many places I wanted to see. I wanted to experience growing up and doing all the things I saw grown ups do. Yet the idea lingered over me that I would one day be robbed of my future and that it could happen at any instant.

I feared the rapture and would always get nervous whenever anyone would talk about it. I remember many times when I would just go to my room and sit there quietly while my mind tried to process the information and cope with the idea.

But eventually I started to learn about the world and how things really worked. The more I learned, the more that fear turned to anger. My hopes for my own life evolved into hopes for mankind. I was thrilled with the idea that we were exploring space and would one day reach the stars. Who the hell was god to take that away from us? That was my thought process.

The older I got, the more I opposed the idea of a rapture. I hated it. Though I still believed in God and a good chunk of the Bible, I was having trouble accepting the end-times that awaited us all. But in my mind, it WAS going to happen and there was nothing we could do to stop it. So I gave up.

I figured if God was going to judge this world and destroy everything, and if I was already saved because I accepted Jesus, then why should I care about my future? So I stopped caring.

I was about 13 when I realized this and it reflected in everything I did. From my attitude, to my schooling, to my social life. I didn't give a rat's hairless tail about any of it. I hated everyone and everything. I saw it as completely worthless and deserving of God's punishment.

Years later, after dropping out of school, picking up a criminal record, annihilating my social life and becoming a total hermit, I had a brush with attempted suicide. Details omitted for personal reasons.

After that, my life took a harsh downward spiral to the stone-cold bottom. This lasted a few years before I finally started to develope a secular mind. And once I did that, I found a freedom that I never knew existed. I was free to dream. Free to live. Free to rebuild my life. And that is what I've been doing ever since.

I'm not angry at myself for what I had to go through. I'm not angry at God. I'm not even angry at religion. But I will never again subject my mind to those doctrines. I have high hopes for the human race. I believe that we will one day explore the stars. If I was rich, I would fund that advancement as much as possible. I have high hopes for my life. I'm quietly working on climbing out of the hole I fell into and I feel better now than I've ever felt in my entire life.

I've heard from some people that the devil is confusing me. If that is true then i have one question for him: where the hell have you been all my life?

I feel free. I feel secure. I know I will die one day. I know the world will eventually come to an end. I know the universe will one day be destroyed. And I know that the only thing we can do about any of that is to live life as best as we can. Because these things will happen naturally and there is nothing we can do to convince nature to show us mercy. Just roll with it. Be the best you can be. Do what's right to everyone you meet and strive to be a good person.

If we do happen to get past the great filters that all intelligent life has to overcome, we can stand proud as a species who've conquered our existence. And if there is a God, I'm pretty sure he would be proud of us too.

There is hope for mankind though!

It's in actions like these --

"Love your neighbor"

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you"

To the extent more people do these, civilization will flourish.

If fewer and fewer people do these, civilization will actually collapse into a horror, a 'hell on Earth' outcome.

Some will recognize these as words of Jesus, and there are more just as wonderful.

He is the Way to peace and a good life. Not only in the afterlife, but even here and now also.

rockytopva · Sep 5, 2017

I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

This is the Laodicean church age... And the word of the Lord to this church age...

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. - Revelation 3

I would not want to grow cold in this church age!

Catherineanne · Sep 5, 2017

T-seven said:
You're correct Catherineanne, I was a bit harsh and erealmz has my apologies.
Nevertheless, I'm tired of people beating up on God, blaming Him for the wreckage in their lives.
Our lives are many a time the product of our own wrong choices and in erealmz case our own thoughts and mental projections.

It is always tempting to defend God, but really not at all necessary. Neither you nor I need worry about God; he is big enough to take care of himself.

It is the other way round; he protects us.

Tinker Grey · Sep 5, 2017

I grew up with rapture teaching. I remember coming home from school and finding the house empty. I was terrified that the rapture had happened and I'd been left behind. When my mom came home I ran to her arms crying. When I explained, she reminded me that I had accepted Jesus into my heart and I would not be left behind.

The problem with teachings like this is that one can never know. Christianity teaches that you can know, but I think it is a small comfort to those afraid. I knew I'd accepted Christ. I knew I meant it. But did I really? Did I really really mean it? Did I realy really really mean it?

If you can remember yourself as a boy/girl at age 8 or 9, you know that there is no certainty. You simply cannot know that it is enough. Eventually, you convince yourself that you do believe and let it go so that you can go on living. You try not to think about it. Just recite the mantra, you'll be ok.

Catherineanne · Sep 5, 2017

rockytopva said:
I believe in the seven churches as ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

This is the Laodicean church age... And the word of the Lord to this church age...

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. - Revelation 3

I would not want to grow cold in this church age!

That is not standard Christian belief. Far from it.

rockytopva · Sep 5, 2017

Catherineanne said:
That is not standard Christian belief. Far from it.

Look around you! Unless you dwell on some island with very few... The issues of the Laodicean church are all around us!

Tinker Grey · Sep 5, 2017

The issues of every era are around us.

quatona · Sep 5, 2017

T-seven said:
You're correct Catherineanne, I was a bit harsh and erealmz has my apologies.
Nevertheless, I'm tired of people beating up on God, blaming Him for the wreckage in their lives.
Our lives are many a time the product of our own wrong choices and in erealmz case our own thoughts and mental projections.

...but when our lives are good, God deserves the credits?

Catherineanne · Sep 6, 2017

Forgive 70 times 7 said:
No it's clearly in bible in multiple passages , sad that you are blind to it , like in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

I Thessalonians is about the Resurrection of the Dead, which is attested in the Nicene Creed, as already noted, and which is a totally different thing from the rapture nonsense.

Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD

1. Rapture doctrine is one of the most recent "new doctrines" in the history of the Church. The only doctrine more recent is the invention of the sinner's prayer for salvation by Billy Sunday in 1930, which was made popular by Billy Graham in 1935.

2. The fact that John Nelson Darby invented the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine around 1830 AD is unquestionably true. All attempts to find evidence of this wild doctrine before 1830 have failed, with a single exception: Morgan Edwards wrote a short essay as a college paper for Bristol Baptist College in Bristol England in 1744 where he confused the second coming with the first resurrection of Revelation 20 and described a "pre-tribulation" rapture. However Edwards ideas, which he admitted were brand new and never before taught, had no influence in the modern population of the false doctrine. That prize to goes to Darby.

3. Prior to 1830, no church taught it in their creed, catechism or statement of faith.

In case I did not make myself clear enough about the rapture nonsense, which is NOT in Thessalonians or anywhere else, but is SPURIOUS MODERN INTERPRETATION contrary to the Gospel of Christ, here it is again in summary:

UnBiblical rapture. Rapture twaddle. Rapture balderdash. Rapture popppycock. Rapture nonsense. Rapture piffle. Rapture tosh. Rapture Cockney rhyming slang.

Take your pick from those and you are welcome.

ViaCrucis · Sep 6, 2017

Forgive 70 times 7 said:
No it's clearly in bible in multiple passages , sad that you are blind to it , like in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

1 Thessalonians 4 is talking about the resurrection of the dead at Christ's parousia. Notice that at no point does the text ever say that anyone is beamed up into heaven. On the contrary, the primary direction of the text is down, Christ's return and His descent from heaven to the earth, the only "up" is the "catching up" (the sole term latched onto by Dispensationalists) of the resurrected dead and "we who are alive and remain" to "meet the Lord in the air"--this "catching up" is not into heaven, it is to meet Christ in the air as He is returning, in glory, from heaven. The imagery St. Paul has used here points us to the scene of a returning king coming to his city, and the people of the city leave the gates to come and greet the king and escort him back as a royal entourage.

Nobody's going to heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4, it is Christ returning, the dead being raised, and the faithful going out to meet Him as He returns.

The idea that anyone is going to be beamed up into heaven--the "rapture"--is absolute nonsense, and it is something which the Christian Church has never taught or believed, and it is the belief which exists only on the fringe, invented from whole cloth by an ex-pastor and rogue, John Nelson Darby in the 1800's.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Sep 6, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
I wouldn't say "a lie of the devil" more "a lie of the controlling members of the church".

I don't disagree, though if one wanted to provide a counter-argument: If the devil is in the business of turning people away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then I'd say "the rapture" and its mother theological system certainly has the earmarks of the diabolical. Taken seriously enough Dispensationalism would tell us that grace is merely a temporary parenthesis in God's dealings with the world, and that God's primary attitude and response to the world is one of wrath and judgment, and that the chief way for a person to get on God's good side is through law and personal effort. As Dispensationalism teaches that Christ's death and resurrection is God's Plan B because Plan A failed, and Plan B ushered in a temporary parenthesis in God's dealings in which He is temporarily merciful--but only until the "rapture" at which point it's too late, unless of course you are one of the few exceptionally holy ones who end up surviving and making it through seven years of hell on earth during which God is going to do everything He can to make every tyrant that ever lived in history pale by comparison.

-CryptoLutheran

The rapture mucked my life up

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