Christian only forums? Really?

quatona · Sep 1, 2017

Catherineanne said:
Can you prove that you exist?

<<<<gets popcorn>>>>

Is that another version of "either my god or...epistemological nihilism"?

bhsmte · Sep 2, 2017

erealmz said:
At first I was kind of upset about this. Then I figured Christians want a place to talk amongst themselves without interference from non believers. It makes sense. However, upon browsing the Christian only forums, I noticed there seems to be non-Christians in there as well. Or at the very least, those who struggle with the faith.

There are some very good discussions going on in those forums. But since I'm an athiest, I'm not allowed to participate. I have a lot to say and I know I could help people find answers to many of the questions they have. But you probably think that my intentions are to troll and spread propaganda.

As an ex-believer, I've studied the Bible and the Christian faith a great deal. And when I'm discussing such issues with people, I still use the Bible to quote scriptures.

I have nothing against Christians. Unless they are on the streets preaching about hell. Those are the only ones I will approach and argue with. Besides that, I do not push my views on anyone. I just love deep conversation. It's one of the reasons I joined this website. But if I'm going to be secluded from certain areas just because I don't hold the same beliefs as you, then my time here will probably be very short.

I'm not asking to be given special privileges. I'm sure your site wide rules are very effective in maintaining order in this place. Besides, if the only thing keeping me out of those forums were my spiritual orientation, I'm sure I could just make a new account and claim to be a Christian just to gain access. But I'm not going to do that. I stand where I stand and if this is the treatment I get for doing such, then it only serves to intensify my reasons to remain on that stance.

I will continue to browse the forums looking for good conversations. And if I find that the most interesting discussions are happening in places that I can not access, then as stated, I will not be a part of this website for much longer.

I don't see anything wrong about having a Christian only portion of the site. Some folks, are just more comfortable talking with others who are at least claiming to be Christians.

The thing about it though, you can observe highly intense disagreements back and forth on the Christian only section, just as you can in the sections non believers can interact with Christians.

Rick Otto · Sep 2, 2017

Oscarr said:
I don't know if you have read my testimony on other threads of how I met God, but I will repeat it here.
I accepted Christ at the age of 19 and spent the next two years trying to be the best Christian I could in the most noisy, lit up church in town. I ended up being very frustrated because I did the whole religious thing (in a Pentecostal church, would you believe!) but I had never had the experience of meeting God on a personal level. I came to the point where all this religion was pointless if I didn't know the God behind it all. If I couldn't know Him personally, what's the point of doing all this religious stuff?

So, when I went to my parents' home on my annual holidays, I got into the middle of a golf course not far from home, at 11pm on a cold April night, stood there, looked up into the starry sky, and said, "God, you are out there somewhere within earshot of my voice. I have tried all the religious stuff and I need to meet you. If I can't know you personally, I'm going to give all this religious stuff up because there's no point in it for me." Then I said the following:
"So, because no one else has been able to introduce me to You, I have come out here to introduce myself. You are God, and I am Paul, and I am very glad to meet you."
What happened then was amazing. One moment I felt quite alone and the next I felt that I was lit up inside, and this voice spoke in my thoughts. I had never had thoughts quite like this before. It seemed like a quiet, confident and supportive voice in my mind. It said, "Well, Paul, we've been waiting for this for a long time." I said, "Waiting for what?" "Waiting for you to get away from the religious, and to come directly to Me." Then I asked Him how to be a real Christian. He said, "Just be yourself, Paul." I said, "I can't do that! People will see all my sins and shortcomings, and that will be shameful for me." He replied, "If I don't like you, I will change you."
That encounter caused the Bible to be a completely different book to me. It came alive. I then discovered good books by Christian writers that gave me new insights into walking with God and knowing His ways. He showed me that He is not the church and the church is not Him. On one occasion while in church one Sunday, when everything seemed dead and boring I asked Him what was going on. He said, "They won't let me move. Paul. Their strict programme has me over in the corner with My hands tied."
All this happened around 48 years ago, and I have always sensed His presence with me. I can't explain or prove it, but I just relax and enjoy it. In my darkest moment when my first wife left me, I said, "Lord, now I will know if I am a real Christian or not." It seemed that Jesus came and put His hand on my shoulder and told me, "I am your refuge and strength; a very present help in time of trouble." Then over the next seven years He rebuilt my life to make it a whole lot better than it was, with a whole new career and family.
So, don't let "the church" get in the way of knowing God personally. He gave me the verse, "He that comes to God must believe that He exists and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." and, "If we seek Him with all our hearts, we will find Him." I asked Him how I would always recognise His voice when He spoke to me. He said, "If I hear your voice a lot in fellowship and prayer to Me, you will hear my voice a lot." I have found that to be very true. I can't prove all this by any empirical means, but 48 years of experiencing his presence and voice has totally convinced me.

Thank you. That's the God I know.

Dave RP · Sep 5, 2017

erealmz said:
At first I was kind of upset about this. Then I figured Christians want a place to talk amongst themselves without interference from non believers. It makes sense. However, upon browsing the Christian only forums, I noticed there seems to be non-Christians in there as well. Or at the very least, those who struggle with the faith.

There are some very good discussions going on in those forums. But since I'm an athiest, I'm not allowed to participate. I have a lot to say and I know I could help people find answers to many of the questions they have. But you probably think that my intentions are to troll and spread propaganda.

As an ex-believer, I've studied the Bible and the Christian faith a great deal. And when I'm discussing such issues with people, I still use the Bible to quote scriptures.

I have nothing against Christians. Unless they are on the streets preaching about hell. Those are the only ones I will approach and argue with. Besides that, I do not push my views on anyone. I just love deep conversation. It's one of the reasons I joined this website. But if I'm going to be secluded from certain areas just because I don't hold the same beliefs as you, then my time here will probably be very short.

I'm not asking to be given special privileges. I'm sure your site wide rules are very effective in maintaining order in this place. Besides, if the only thing keeping me out of those forums were my spiritual orientation, I'm sure I could just make a new account and claim to be a Christian just to gain access. But I'm not going to do that. I stand where I stand and if this is the treatment I get for doing such, then it only serves to intensify my reasons to remain on that stance.

I will continue to browse the forums looking for good conversations. And if I find that the most interesting discussions are happening in places that I can not access, then as stated, I will not be a part of this website for much longer.

It's a Christian web site which has a separate section for the kind of discussions you're looking for. The Christian Apologetics area give the chance for that kind of debate. I'll say that in my opinion, if Christians want to talk amongst themselves in the rest of the site, that's fair enough.

erealmz · Sep 5, 2017

Catherineanne said:
Can you prove that you exist?

<<<<gets popcorn>>>>

Of course I can't prove that I exist. But I am self aware. Now if you want to get out the popcorn then I guess your preparing for some deep talk. So here it goes. What I can not prove is that you exist. Nor anyone else in this world. Nor the world at all. There is no way for us to be certain that any of this exist. You might say that you exist but I will never be able to prove that to myself. I only accept the reality I was taught to believe. The only reason I believe it is because the evidence is there. Cause and effect. Though nothing is 100% certain, the probability that a cause will produce a predictable action is more likely than not. Therefore as I experience this world, my mind forms likely conclusions of how it should work and so far it has been right most of the time.

Since you base this question off my quote that I can never prove that god exists, I can assure you that it does nothing to altar that fact. But if I'm living in what I believe to be reality, one of which I see evidence for every day, and I can not even prove that, then what makes you think I can ever find proof of a god?... For which no evidence has been presented. *Grabs a handful of your popcorn* thank you.

erealmz · Sep 5, 2017

Catherineanne said:
If you denied that my best friend existed and tried to convince me that she did not exist either, yes, that would make you my friend's enemy. And mine. You are entitled to speak of what is real for you. You are most certainly NOT entitled to deny my reality.

Far too many atheists are far too evangelical.

The red flag is there; waving away.

Okay for one, I do not deny the existence of god or your best friend. Being an atheist means that I am not convinced that he exists. Say you and I were friends and we talk everyday. You talk about a friend you have quite often. You go into great detail about how this friend helps you out all the time, is always there for you, etc. This goes on for months until one day I ask you to introduce me to this friend. You refuse. I ask if I can see her Facebook profile, you say she doesn't have one. I ask to see a picture of her, you say you don't have any. I ask if I can at least talk to her on the phone and you say she doesn't have that either. Now I'm not so sure that you friend even exists. I might even question you about it. But I don't know that for a fact. It just might be that she does exist and just doesn't want to be bothered. So now I have to take you on only your word that you have this friend, that she is real and that you are not schizophrenic. So far I have no proof that your friend is real so I might not be so convinced. But that does not automatically mean that I think you are crazy. There are just too many variables for me to make a conclusion on the matter. But I am not going to sit there and say you are nuts or that your friend doesn't exist.

I do not deny your reality. I do not deny your God. But if you want to believe that I am your enemy then that is your own believe and is in no way a fact.

erealmz · Sep 5, 2017

Catherineanne said:
You are arguing against your own concept of God.

Ironic, that.

I argue against ALL concepts of God. The one you quoted just happens to be the one I was indoctrinated into when I was very young. It is the example of the belief system that influenced me the most and that I have the most knowledge about. But I don't find any other faiths/religions/personalrelationshipswithGod any truer than than the rest of them (including my own "concept") and so am equally unconvinced if all of them.

Catherineanne · Sep 5, 2017

erealmz said:
I do not deny your reality. I do not deny your God. But if you want to believe that I am your enemy then that is your own believe and is in no way a fact.

You might care to find out what 'if' means.

Catherineanne · Sep 5, 2017

erealmz said:
I argue against ALL concepts of God. The one you quoted just happens to be the one I was indoctrinated into when I was very young. It is the example of the belief system that influenced me the most and that I have the most knowledge about. But I don't find any other faiths/religions/personalrelationshipswithGod any truer than than the rest of them (including my own "concept") and so am equally unconvinced if all of them.

No, you are mostly unconvinced by your own concept. You can't possibly be unconvinced by mine, because you know absolutely nothing about him. Not a thing.

erealmz · Sep 5, 2017

Dave RP said:
It's a Christian web site which has a separate section for the kind of discussions you're looking for. The Christian Apologetics area give the chance for that kind of debate. I'll say that in my opinion, if Christians want to talk amongst themselves in the rest of the site, that's fair enough.

It is fair. And I'm not saying otherwise. In fact it's kind of funny how their "discussions" quickly turn into arguments. I don't oppose any of that.

erealmz · Sep 5, 2017

Catherineanne said:
No, you are mostly unconvinced by your own concept. You can't possibly be unconvinced by mine, because you know absolutely nothing about him. Not a thing.

How do you know that?

Catherineanne · Sep 5, 2017

erealmz said:
Of course I can't prove that I exist. But I am self aware. Now if you want to get out the popcorn then I guess your preparing for some deep talk. So here it goes. What I can not prove is that you exist. Nor anyone else in this world. Nor the world at all. There is no way for us to be certain that any of this exist. You might say that you exist but I will never be able to prove that to myself. I only accept the reality I was taught to believe. The only reason I believe it is because the evidence is there. Cause and effect. Though nothing is 100% certain, the probability that a cause will produce a predictable action is more likely than not. Therefore as I experience this world, my mind forms likely conclusions of how it should work and so far it has been right most of the time.

So you can't prove any of that, but you take it on faith?

How interesting.

Since you base this question off my quote that I can never prove that god exists, I can assure you that it does nothing to altar that fact. But if I'm living in what I believe to be reality, one of which I see evidence for every day, and I can not even prove that, then what makes you think I can ever find proof of a god?... For which no evidence has been presented. *Grabs a handful of your popcorn* thank you.

You are most welcome to the popcorn, any time.

Meanwhile, what kind of evidence of God's existence are you looking for?

Catherineanne · Sep 5, 2017

erealmz said:
How do you know that?

Because your concept of God is too small. Why would you argue against a small God when you could argue against a far bigger one?

erealmz · Sep 5, 2017

Catherineanne said:
You might care to find out what 'if' means.

"If" is the conditional clause used to determine whether the criteria you put forth causes you to perceive me as your enemy. I countered the cause with a defensive statement intended to examine that criteria and my stance concerning it thereby clearing any presumed intentions on my part as actually acting within the predetermined bounds of such a label. How far do you want to go with this?

erealmz · Sep 5, 2017

Catherineanne said:
So you can't prove any of that, but you take it on faith?

How interesting.

It's not about taking it on faith. I am lead to believe what I experience based on how my senses interpret the information. With or without proof, the evidence is there and so I believe it.

Catherineanne said:
You are most welcome to the popcorn, any time.

Meanwhile, what kind of evidence of God's existence are you looking for?

Any....

erealmz · Sep 5, 2017

Catherineanne said:
Because your concept of God is too small. Why would you argue against a small God when you could argue against a far bigger one?

I'm listening...

erealmz · Sep 5, 2017

~Anastasia~ said:
Sometimes I want to apologize to atheists for the myriad ways in which Christians try to evangelize. I think their hearts are probably in the right place, but the attempts sometimes make me cringe.

Not to say I have perfect answers. Honestly, I find it's better to KNOW people, find what their real issues are. Often as not, it's certain inconsistencies or misplaced expectations failed that have led to their conclusions. The Christian landscape is a mess, but even that I think is mostly due to good intentions that nevertheless set them at odds with their brothers and sisters.

But when I find what seems to be a sincere human person who simply doesn't happen to believe in God, I am most concerned about the efforts turned in their direction.

I do apologize, erealmz, on behalf of any of us who might unintentionally offend. Please understand it usually at least comes from concern, if we may be a bit clumsy at times. Myself included. I hope you will bear with us. And I hope it is ultimately truth which you seek.

Thank you.

erealmz · Sep 5, 2017

ICONO'CLAST said:
Without the Spirit of God, you cannot have a Spiritual understanding of the bible...such understanding comes from God alone;
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Not everyone is going to welcome truth...the same truth will judge them on the last day;
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Quoting the Bible will get you nowhere... Not without at least attempting to interpret your understanding of the verses you are using. I know that you can not have a spiritual understanding of the Bible without the deeper wisdom that comes from that part of the human brain you believe is the spirit. What are you getting at?

CrystalDragon · Sep 5, 2017

Strathos said:
Because your icon says 'Atheist'.

You do realize that most atheists were devout believers and reading the Bible in-depth was often a large part of what caused them to lose their faith, right?

~Anastasia~ · Sep 5, 2017

erealmz said:
Thank you.

You are most welcome.

Christian only forums? Really?

"God"? What do you mean??

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