Would you be happy in heaven if ...

This verse comes to mind:

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." ~I Corinthians 2:9

For me, it will be to finally see the face of God and to hear Him sing. And to finally get a hug as i collapse into His arms.

GingerBeer said:

Would you be happy in heaven if every piece of literature that you know and love here on Earth were expunged from creation and every work of art were gone too and even the capacity to create similar works of art were also gone? Considering that the ten commandments - according to many - teach that creating carved images of any kind of living thing is forbidden and considering that it is alleged - by many - that any sinful thought will be impossible in heaven. Would it be possible to read literature like Macbeth, Romeo & Juliet, The merchant of Venice, The Lord of the Rings, À la recherche du temps perdu, War and Peace etcetera? Is your vision of heaven sufficiently complete to assure you that culture and all that it means for human beings will survive? And what of the prediction in Peter's second letter that the Earth will be purged by fire? Will any art work, book, or building survive "the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." And what is your thinking about the question raised by Peter when he writes "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" and the thought that "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness" 2 Peter 3:10-13

Click to expand...

I don't care about ANY of this. Isn't the entire point of heaven to FINALLY be with God? Where He Himself wipes away every tear? Where this race we are running, is finished? I don't care about "rewards" and "mansions". I just want to see His face.

JIMINZ said:

.
As for me, I think this will suffice.

Rev 21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Rev 21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
Rev 21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Click to expand...

Revelation was an allegorical/metaphorical message to the leaders of the churches persecuted under Emperor Nero. John couldn't outright say "Nero is a terrible person" or he's likely be beheaded, so it was all conveyed through imagery to show that eventually the persecuted Christians would be free from Nero and his Empire and they could have better lives. We can't take Revelation as a description of Heaven because it's all symbolism meant for them back then.

JIMINZ said:

.
I don't know if this an analogy or not, but think of going to Heaven with all of your facilities, memories of music, literature and the like, think of how enjoyable that would be.

Now think of all the people in your family who didn't make it to heaven, you would also be aware of them missing, I know everyone believes they all made it, even Grandma, but I think I easily could say, not everyone we want to have made, it actually did.

Is that going to give you a joyous time, or will you mourn the person who you now know didn't make it, and they are now where they are, and they will be there for all eternity.

At that point, wouldn't you rather opt out of having a memory of earthly things?

Click to expand...

That's cruel then. Basically saying that our memories are wiped so we only focus on worshipping God, forget all the things we love, and forget about our loved ones that might be suffering in hell.

That thought, along with the concept of hell itself, makes God seem like a brainwashing egomaniac in the guise of love.

brinny said:

I don't care about ANY of this. Isn't the entire point of heaven to FINALLY be with God? Where He Himself wipes away every tear? Where this race we are running, is finished? I don't care about "rewards" and "mansions". I just want to see His face.

Click to expand...

And what would that entail? What would that mean?

JIMINZ said:

.
Are you saying Worshiping God is a bad thing?

Isn't it all about becoming like Christ?

Rom. 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Yeah, I think we should change...... don't you?

Click to expand...

There's a difference between being like Christ (being kind to everyone, loving our enemies, etc., which I think all of us should strive for) and what some see heaven as being (your memories and everything you are are wiped to just want to fall on your feet and worship and sing praises and do nothing else for all eternity)

CrystalDragon said:

And what would that entail? What would that mean?



There's a difference between being like Christ (being kind to everyone, loving our enemies, etc., which I think all of us should strive for) and what some see heaven as being (your memories and everything you are are wiped to just want to fall on your feet and worship and sing praises and do nothing else for all eternity)

Click to expand...

What? Seeing His face?

JIMINZ said:

.
I know, it's a hard concept to grasp, isn't it?
But it isn't about us.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Cor. 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Jn. 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Keep your Individuality, I will take what God has Prepared any day.

Click to expand...

But we don't KNOW what God has prepared. That's the problem. There's no indication that's not vague, or indication that we'll lose our memories in some form. Or at least we'll be overwhelmed by God's glory, completely changed, and have our minds wiped so we'll think of nothing else and if loved ones are suffering, we won't remember their existence.

Individuality is who we are. Why would God care so much how we worship him on Earth if he's going to change us to only worship in heaven anyway? Does he only want us to have free will (to an extent) while on Earth and that's it? The fact that God demands worship seems to indicate more of an ego than one would expect from someone who created the entire universe and supposedly "loves" his creation.

brinny said:

What? Seeing His face?

Click to expand...

Yeah. I mean, sure, it means seeing the face of God, but I was thinking about how I've heard some say that if we see God's face then we'll be overwhelmed by his glory. And I wonder why God allowed people to see his face (and Moses saw his backside apparently) back in the Biblical days, and now he's seen as being more incorporeal when he clearly must have a body if we see his face.

CrystalDragon said:

And what would that entail? What would that mean?



There's a difference between being like Christ (being kind to everyone, loving our enemies, etc., which I think all of us should strive for) and what some see heaven as being (your memories and everything you are are wiped to just want to fall on your feet and worship and sing praises and do nothing else for all eternity)

Click to expand...

Love abides forever.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

W2L said:

Love abides forever.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Click to expand...

Then hell should not exist. And love should involve keeping our minds, right? Otherwise it's forced brainwashed love which kind of negates the whole "God wants us to have free will" view.

CrystalDragon said:

Yeah. I mean, sure, it means seeing the face of God, but I was thinking about how I've heard some say that if we see God's face then we'll be overwhelmed by his glory. And I wonder why God allowed people to see his face (and Moses saw his backside apparently) back in the Biblical days, and now he's seen as being more incorporeal when he clearly must have a body if we see his face.

Click to expand...

You mean NOW, in our "fallen" state?

I'm speaking of what heaven means to me. it means that is where HE is at. It means FINALLY, yes, seeing His face, and where He wipes away my tears and finally i gets a hug from Him.

CrystalDragon said:

Then hell should not exist. And love should involve keeping our minds, right? Otherwise it's forced brainwashed love which kind of negates the whole "God wants us to have free will" view.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you could try walking by faith not sight? Either way, you cannot change Gods plan, so why not hope in Him and in heaven?

brinny said:

You mean NOW, in our "fallen" state?

I'm speaking of what heaven means to me. it means that is where HE is at. It means FINALLY, yes, seeing His face, and where He wipes away my tears and finally i gets a hug from Him.

Click to expand...

Well in our "fallen state" it's said that we shouldn't be able to see God's face at all. I've just heard people use the phrase "overwhelmed by glory" when they talk about seeing God's face and that seems just a little sketchy to me in that wording. Seeing God's face itself would be great though, I hope.

I can't help but wonder why God showed himself in corporeal form in the Old Testament, while he never does nowadays and seems more incorporeal/spirit.

CrystalDragon said:

Well in our "fallen state" it's said that we shouldn't be able to see God's face at all. I've just heard people use the phrase "overwhelmed by glory" when they talk about seeing God's face and that seems just a little sketchy to me in that wording. Seeing God's face itself would be great though, I hope.

I can't help but wonder why God showed himself in corporeal form in the Old Testament, while he never does nowadays and seems more incorporeal/spirit.

Click to expand...

Adam saw God's face. They were face to face, and walking and talking together in a garden. It changed because of sin, and there's no need to go into that, it's all around us, and the wounded and marred and collapsed souls are all around us, some of us being amongst them. I want to see God's face, and for Him to wipe away all my tears. THIS is why i want to be in heaven. It's because that's where HE is. Never ever to be separated again.

GingerBeer said:

Would you be happy in heaven if every piece of literature that you know and love here on Earth were expunged from creation and every work of art were gone too and even the capacity to create similar works of art were also gone? Considering that the ten commandments - according to many - teach that creating carved images of any kind of living thing is forbidden and considering that it is alleged - by many - that any sinful thought will be impossible in heaven. Would it be possible to read literature like Macbeth, Romeo & Juliet, The merchant of Venice, The Lord of the Rings, À la recherche du temps perdu, War and Peace etcetera? Is your vision of heaven sufficiently complete to assure you that culture and all that it means for human beings will survive? And what of the prediction in Peter's second letter that the Earth will be purged by fire? Will any art work, book, or building survive "the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." And what is your thinking about the question raised by Peter when he writes "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" and the thought that "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness" 2 Peter 3:10-13

Click to expand...

When I was a kid, I remember thinking it must be rotten to be an adult, because I won't be able to play on the swings any more. This sounds similar.

CrystalDragon said:

Um, how in the world were those gifts brought to us by fallen angels? I don't think there's any historical, logical, or Biblical support for that.

Click to expand...

The Book of Enoch describes everything in detail. For the Christians of Ethiopia, that book is part of the canon. And for some of us, many parts of it is indeed inspired--Jesus being one of us, as well as Jude.

Here are the Enoch references in the New Testament:

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5) The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})

the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22). the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})

shall inherit everlasting life (Mat. 19:29) those who will inherit eternal life (Enoch 40:9 {40:9})

"Woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (Luke 6:24) Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. (Enoch 94:8 {93:7}).

Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat. 19:28) I will place each of them on a throne of glory (Enoch 108:12 {105:26})

Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24) Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})

between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. (Luke 16:26) by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated (Enoch 22: 9,11{22:10,12})

In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2) In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})

that ye may be called the children of light (John 12:36) the good from the generation of light (Enoch 108:11 {105: 25})

the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14) all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy. (Enoch 48:1 {48:1})

and one direct quote:

Jude 1:14-15, quoting Enoch 1:9 {2:1} [1]

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches, which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

Phoebe Ann said:

I've been to the National Gallery of Art several times because I love great art, but God's art surpasses everything in the gallery.

Click to expand...

Even all those beautiful paintings of sunsets, all gone?

W2L said:

Yes but isnt that symbolic language?

Click to expand...

All language is symbolic.
What you picture when you read
may be quite different from what I picture.

My wife tutored a man in math, blind from birth in college.
He could picture trigonometric slopes and graphs easily.
Likely his view on things is different.