Would you be happy in heaven if ...

W2L · Sep 4, 2017

BobRyan said:
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

The answer seems to be in the wording. You shall not make for "yourself" any image. The ark was made for God, not for those who built it.

Hammster · Sep 4, 2017

GingerBeer said:
What of human culture; does it matter?

Only as far as it matters to God. Remember, the seraphim worship Him continually. So anything beyond that is bonus, for lack of a better word.

Hammster · Sep 4, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
I definitely wouldn't be happy. At all. Things like that are a large part of my enjoyment.

Heaven as it's often portrayed seems like you're brainwashed to only want to worship God and nothing else. Therefore it's like your personality is changed, and you aren't you.

You don't want to worship God?

Hammster · Sep 4, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
And can you tell for sure "what is to come" that isn't just "we'll only be focused on worshipping God forever and nothing else" vagueness?

That would be awesome. Worshipping an infinite God would never be boring.

W2L · Sep 4, 2017

Hammster said:
That would be awesome. Worshipping an infinite God would never be boring.

Whatever it is like, it will be better than here.

CrystalDragon · Sep 4, 2017

Hammster said:
You don't want to worship God?

Hammster said:
That would be awesome. Worshipping an infinite God would never be boring.

Not if I lose my personality and everything I am. Then I'm not me, and the "God wants us to have free will"argument collapses (and it's sketchy to begin with, assuming God has a plan and predetermined everything). It's just an eternal worship service that's like going to church forever (I assume, people are always vague on it), and that makes God seem really vain and egotistical.

It would be more like a variation of hell than heaven. So it would be like having either eternal fiery torture of agony or brainwashed into an eternal worship service as you lose all your identity and have your will forcibly changed.

W2L · Sep 4, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
Not if I lose my personality and everything I am. Then I'm not me, and the "God wants us to have free will"argument collapses (and it's sketchy to begin with, assuming God has a plan and predetermined everything). It's just an eternal worship service that's like going to church forever (I assume, people are always vague on it), and that makes God seem really vain and egotistical.

It would be more like a variation of hell than heaven. So it would be like having either eternal fiery torture of agony or brainwashed into an eternal worship service as you lose all your identity and have your will forcibly changed.

Have you ever experienced Gods love? Thats what heaven will be like all the time. For me life is such a battle that i already feel like part of me is gone. I want to live, so i hope in the Lord and pray for him to help me. God has helped me recently so i am very happy about that. Praise the Lord.

AlexDTX · Sep 4, 2017

GingerBeer said:
Would you be happy in heaven if every piece of literature that you know and love here on Earth were expunged from creation and every work of art were gone too and even the capacity to create similar works of art were also gone? Considering that the ten commandments - according to many - teach that creating carved images of any kind of living thing is forbidden and considering that it is alleged - by many - that any sinful thought will be impossible in heaven. Would it be possible to read literature like Macbeth, Romeo & Juliet, The merchant of Venice, The Lord of the Rings, À la recherche du temps perdu, War and Peace etcetera? Is your vision of heaven sufficiently complete to assure you that culture and all that it means for human beings will survive? And what of the prediction in Peter's second letter that the Earth will be purged by fire? Will any art work, book, or building survive "the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." And what is your thinking about the question raised by Peter when he writes "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" and the thought that "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness" 2 Peter 3:10-13

Eye has not seen nor ear heard the things that God has prepared for those who love him. This world is stunning in its beauty, yet God is going make something better!? The glory of the latter temple will be greater than the former temple. I don't care what God preserves and destroys. The coming glory is what I am looking forward to.

Besides, those things that have stood the test of time probably have the hand of God on it already.

AlexDTX · Sep 4, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
Not if I lose my personality and everything I am. Then I'm not me, and the "God wants us to have free will"argument collapses (and it's sketchy to begin with, assuming God has a plan and predetermined everything). It's just an eternal worship service that's like going to church forever (I assume, people are always vague on it), and that makes God seem really vain and egotistical.

It would be more like a variation of hell than heaven. So it would be like having either eternal fiery torture of agony or brainwashed into an eternal worship service as you lose all your identity and have your will forcibly changed.

What a shame you have such a limited vision of God, then.

CrystalDragon · Sep 4, 2017

W2L said:
Have you ever experienced Gods love? Thats what heaven will be like all the time. For me life is such a battle that i already feel like part of me is gone. I want to live, so i hope in the Lord and pray for him to help me. God has helped me recently so i am very happy about that. Praise the Lord.

I don't feel like I've ever really experienced "God's love" in a way that I could tell wasn't my own mind thinking it, or the friendliness of the church, or a psychological projection, or just my own thoughts to myself. It's like trying to talk to someone on the phone but they just have an answering machine they never get back to you on and it seems like you're just talking to yourself.

CrystalDragon · Sep 4, 2017

AlexDTX said:
What a shame you have such a limited vision of God, then.

Then what exactly is heaven supposed to be like then? Specifically, not just vague "I'm sure it will be better than here" stuff. Because what I put sure seems what it's like to me from how others describe their thoughts on it (even though they're vague).

W2L · Sep 4, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
I don't feel like I've ever really experienced "God's love" in a way that I could tell wasn't my own mind thinking it, or the friendliness of the church, or a psychological projection, or just my own thoughts to myself. It's like trying to talk to someone on the phone but they just have an answering machine they never get back to you on and it seems like you're just talking to yourself.

The apostle Paul says we eagerly wait for the Lord with perseverance.

Romans 8:24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

AlexDTX · Sep 4, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
Then what exactly is heaven supposed to be like then? Specifically, not just vague "I'm sure it will be better than here" stuff. Because what I put sure seems what it's like to me from how others describe their thoughts on it (even though they're vague).

I am not concerned with heaven. I believe it is a temporary dwelling until Jesus returns then we will live on the Earth and have access to heaven after that. God is LIFE Abundantly. He does not make dead things. He makes life. We have no idea how much more God is going do in his recreation of heaven and earth. But it is not like church worship. In my opinion, church assemblies are man made efforts to worship God. Singing songs is not worship, in my opinion. Nor is eating crackers and drinking wine. Those things can be used for worship, but Jesus said the Father seeks those who will worship him in spirit and in truth. As I understand what he means is that we are to obey the will of God and do it. That is worship. Try singing songs when you know you are disobedient.

This fallen world is filled with amazing life and the new world that is perfect will have even more life.

Hammster · Sep 4, 2017

W2L said:
Whatever it is like, it will be better than here.

Agreed.

Hammster · Sep 4, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
Not if I lose my personality and everything I am. Then I'm not me, and the "God wants us to have free will"argument collapses (and it's sketchy to begin with, assuming God has a plan and predetermined everything). It's just an eternal worship service that's like going to church forever (I assume, people are always vague on it), and that makes God seem really vain and egotistical.

It would be more like a variation of hell than heaven. So it would be like having either eternal fiery torture of agony or brainwashed into an eternal worship service as you lose all your identity and have your will forcibly changed.

So if He doesn't do it your way, you want nothing of it.

Be careful what you wish for.

dqhall · Sep 4, 2017

GingerBeer said:
Would you be happy in heaven if every piece of literature that you know and love here on Earth were expunged from creation and every work of art were gone too and even the capacity to create similar works of art were also gone? Considering that the ten commandments - according to many - teach that creating carved images of any kind of living thing is forbidden and considering that it is alleged - by many - that any sinful thought will be impossible in heaven. Would it be possible to read literature like Macbeth, Romeo & Juliet, The merchant of Venice, The Lord of the Rings, À la recherche du temps perdu, War and Peace etcetera? Is your vision of heaven sufficiently complete to assure you that culture and all that it means for human beings will survive? And what of the prediction in Peter's second letter that the Earth will be purged by fire? Will any art work, book, or building survive "the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." And what is your thinking about the question raised by Peter when he writes "Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" and the thought that "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness" 2 Peter 3:10-13

I recall visiting an art gallery in Washington, D.C. with an exhibit of French Impressionists on the Seine. The paintings were a record of scenes from over a hundred years ago and are part of the historical records, not idols used in false worship. It is not necessary to destroy them. I like photos better for a picture is worth a thousand words, but a picture cannot teach as much as a text book with photos or a lecture with slides.

Good literature does not stray far from reality. Books and films are sometimes based on the true story. That makes things fun.

CrystalDragon · Sep 4, 2017

Hammster said:
So if He doesn't do it your way, you want nothing of it.

Be careful what you wish for.

It's just perhaps I wouldn't mind if people were actually explicit about what it is instead of vague non-answers with no clarification.

Hammster · Sep 4, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
It's just perhaps I wouldn't mind if people were actually explicit about what it is instead of vague non-answers with no clarification.

How more explicit could I be? It will be an eternity of worship.

CrystalDragon · Sep 4, 2017

Hammster said:
How more explicit could I be? It will be an eternity of worship.

I mean what would that worship really entail? Since worship can be applied to things other than church and singing praises for eternity it would help to have some specifics.

Hammster · Sep 4, 2017

CrystalDragon said:
I mean what would that worship really entail? Since worship can be applied to things other than church and singing praises for eternity it would help to have some specifics.

Why does it matter? Are you thinking you won't be happy in the presence of God unless He does things your way?

Would you be happy in heaven if ...

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