If Reincarnation is true then Jesus was sacrificed for no good

Noxot · Sep 4, 2017

here is swedenborgs take on reincarnation.

one way I see reincarnation is as an internal process of becoming that is always happening. we are always dying and being born again. we as human beings change and develop. my spirit travels around in it's proper place hearing both hell and heaven and in my body I interact with different people and so we trade seeds and new stuff gets planted. when two things meet a third thing is formed. there is a constant "increase and multiply" going on and everything is after its own kind. evolutionary natural selection is a symbolic reflection of a process of refinement or play of the soul. so reincarnation is part of the internal process of my soul matrix.

I see no need for it to be literally true but I also would not be bothered if it does happen. however I do not believe that we are forced into doing stuff that we don't want because I think that is contrary to the nature of spirit. being forced into doing things is a theme of being a creature in this physical world and is not necessarily how the larger spiritual world operates.

the common teaching of reincarnation has many pros and cons that can bless or curse souls, it really just depends on the soul. so it's a kind of good in the world. some souls need this, some that. whatever they need will be provided.

ananda · Sep 4, 2017

Another Lazarus said:
You cannot expect God to reveal Himself directly to you because nobody can see God alive, he will perish by His Mighty.
Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Why not? Abraham (Gen 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, Ex 6:3, Acts 7:2), Isaac (Gen 26:2, 26:24, Ex 6:3), Jacob (Gen 32:30, 35:9, 48:3, Ex 6:3), Moses (Ex 3:16, 4:5, 33:1, Num 12:7-1, Deu 34:10, Ex 33:23), other elders (Ex 24:9-11), all of Israel (Num 14:14, Deu 5:4, Baruch 3:38, Eze 20:35), Manoah (Jud 12:22-24), Micaih (1Ki 22:19), Job (Job 42:5), David (Psa 63:2), Isaiah (6:1-2), Ezekiel (1:27-28), Amos (7:7, 9:1), Habakkuk (3:3-5) all supposedly saw their deity. I'd even settle to see Jesus (John 14:9).

Therefore God has spoken through the prophets and Bible.

Why do you believe they should be trusted?

ananda · Sep 4, 2017

Noxot said:
maybe the common understanding of christianity is like what you say it is but in reality there is plenty of other ways to see it and plenty of things you could attempt in it to see if it worked or not, but I think you would be fine on the path you are already on. you said you had been at it for 30 years so something was obviously not going well.

but it is weird that you would have done it for 30 years and not known the depths of it. I bet lots of christians are like that. it must be a biological thing. some people do what they do because it happened to be what was set before them or what snared them.

I would say I understand the depths of Christianity; one big reason I left was that I just came to realize that I could not prove that anything in the Bible actually happened.

ananda · Sep 4, 2017

miknik5 said:
Yes you have
Many times

Who were they?

ananda · Sep 4, 2017

miknik5 said:
You are like Thomas.
Blessed are those who have not seen and believe.

Yet it is also claimed "Let no man beguile you ... intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind" (Col 2:18).

ananda · Sep 4, 2017

miknik5 said:
You know THE GOSPEL..

Sadly, you don't believe it because you base validation of its claims on your lower carnal senses.

Which gospel? I've heard various differing gospels from different groups, each with different interpretations.

"Which gospel should be believed and followed, then, if they all claim to be true?" would be my consequent question.

In the end, to distinguish between the claims of an endless number of gospels, the best answer I could come up with is "the one which I personally know works the best". And that happened to be the Gospel of the Lord Buddha.

Robban · Sep 4, 2017

Noxot said:
here is swedenborgs take on reincarnation.

one way I see reincarnation is as an internal process of becoming that is always happening. we are always dying and being born again. we as human beings change and develop. my spirit travels around in it's proper place hearing both hell and heaven and in my body I interact with different people and so we trade seeds and new stuff gets planted. when two things meet a third thing is formed. there is a constant "increase and multiply" going on and everything is after its own kind. evolutionary natural selection is a symbolic reflection of a process of refinement or play of the soul. so reincarnation is part of the internal process of my soul matrix.

I see no need for it to be literally true but I also would not be bothered if it does happen. however I do not believe that we are forced into doing stuff that we don't want because I think that is contrary to the nature of spirit. being forced into doing things is a theme of being a creature in this physical world and is not necessarily how the larger spiritual world operates.

the common teaching of reincarnation has many pros and cons that can bless or curse souls, it really just depends on the soul. so it's a kind of good in the world. some souls need this, some that. whatever they need will be provided.

Here is a more Jewish view,

Rajni · Sep 4, 2017

I've shared this elsewhere, so I probably should share it here, too, since it's relevant to the thread:

"In many documented near-death experiences involving Jesus, the concept of reincarnation appears. In the NDE testimony of Jeanie Dicus, she was asked by Jesus if she would like to reincarnate or return. Sandra Rogers was asked the same question by Jesus during her NDE. One of the reasons many Christians reject the validity of near-death testimony is because they sometimes appear to conflict with their interpretation of Christian doctrines. But Christians are usually very surprised to learn that reincarnation was a doctrine once held by many early Christians. Not only that, as you will soon see there is overwhelming evidence in the Bible of Jesus himself teaching it. More Biblical evidence can be found in Herbert Puryear's outstanding book entitled Why Jesus Taught Reincarnation and Dr. Quincy Howe, Jr.'s excellent book entitled Reincarnation for the Christian." (read more here: Reincarnation in the Bible)

Robban · Sep 4, 2017

RayJeena said:
I've shared this elsewhere, so I probably should share it here, too, since it's relevant to the thread:

"In many documented near-death experiences involving Jesus, the concept of reincarnation appears. In the NDE testimony of Jeanie Dicus, she was asked by Jesus if she would like to reincarnate or return. Sandra Rogers was asked the same question by Jesus during her NDE. One of the reasons many Christians reject the validity of near-death testimony is because they sometimes appear to conflict with their interpretation of Christian doctrines. But Christians are usually very surprised to learn that reincarnation was a doctrine once held by many early Christians. Not only that, as you will soon see there is overwhelming evidence in the Bible of Jesus himself teaching it. More Biblical evidence can be found in Herbert Puryear's outstanding book entitled Why Jesus Taught Reincarnation and Dr. Quincy Howe, Jr.'s excellent book entitled Reincarnation for the Christian." (read more here: Reincarnation in the Bible)

Then there are those who want to throw a spanner into the works;

The fifth ecumenical council of 553 .

"That anyone asserting the belief in the prexistence of souls (reincarnation)
would anathema,

anathema=cursed, damned, excommunicated.

Much earlier Origenes lost much popularity because he drifted more and more over to reincarnation in his teachings.

Rajni · Sep 4, 2017

Robban said:
Then there are those who want to throw a spanner into the works;

The fifth ecumenical council of 553 .

"That anyone asserting the belief in the prexistence of souls (reincarnation)
would anathema,

anathema=cursed, damned, excommunicated.

Much earlier Origenes lost much popularity because he drifted more and more over to reincarnation in his teachings.

I can totally feel where they're coming from, there.

There are times when the thought of having to start from age 0 and work my way through kindergarten, elementary school, junior high, high school, college (though I think I know what college I'd shoot for next time), homework, dental appointments, stubbing my toes on sharp furniture, etc. *all over again* would *definitely* feel like anathema. One lifetime of all that is quite enough for me! ◠‿◠

-

cloudyday2 · Sep 4, 2017

ananda said:
I would say I understand the depths of Christianity; one big reason I left was that I just came to realize that I could not prove that anything in the Bible actually happened.

I wonder which specific historical claims in the Bible or orthodox traditions are the Achilles Heel of Christianity? Some claims matter more than other claims, and some claims are almost certainly true, and some claims are almost certainly false, and some are in the middle.

Christianity could be approached similar to Buddhism as long as there is no vital historical claim that is almost certainly false. For example, the fact that a Christian might turn his/her life around and enjoy the traditions and community would make Christianity useful for that person.

ananda · Sep 4, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
I wonder which specific historical claims in the Bible or orthodox traditions are the Achilles Heel of Christianity? Some claims matter more than other claims, and some claims are almost certainly true, and some claims are almost certainly false, and some are in the middle.

I imagine that something like John 3:16 forms the bedrock of Christianity, with the key word being "believe". Then, IMO, it naturally follows that one must "believe" in the right things ... usually in things beyond what can be known in the here-and-now.

Christianity could be approached similar to Buddhism as long as there is no vital historical claim that is almost certainly false. For example, the fact that a Christian might turn his/her life around and enjoy the traditions and community would make Christianity useful for that person.

I agree, I see great value in approaching Christianity for its community - it can be something useful and tangible in the here-and-now. But, further than that - "believing" in the right, allegedly historical, things - opens an unsolvable can of worms.

Another Lazarus · Sep 4, 2017

RayJeena said:
Paul might have a different take on that.
In addition, we have the following:

Isaiah 65:1
"I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me;

God have special covenant with the ancestors of the Hebrew, Abraham, Ishac and Jacob thats why God permit Himself to be sought by those Hebrew who didnt seek God.

Another Lazarus · Sep 4, 2017

ananda said:
the best answer I could come up with is "the one which I personally know works the best". And that happened to be the Gospel of the Lord Buddha.

Will you follow the deceased instead of the Living ?

Another Lazarus · Sep 4, 2017

ananda said:
Why not? Abraham (Gen 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, Ex 6:3, Acts 7:2), Isaac (Gen 26:2, 26:24, Ex 6:3), Jacob (Gen 32:30, 35:9, 48:3, Ex 6:3), Moses (Ex 3:16, 4:5, 33:1, Num 12:7-1, Deu 34:10, Ex 33:23), other elders (Ex 24:9-11), all of Israel (Num 14:14, Deu 5:4, Baruch 3:38, Eze 20:35), Manoah (Jud 12:22-24), Micaih (1Ki 22:19), Job (Job 42:5), David (Psa 63:2), Isaiah (6:1-2), Ezekiel (1:27-28), Amos (7:7, 9:1), Habakkuk (3:3-5) all supposedly saw their deity. I'd even settle to see Jesus (John 14:9).

They are the holy prophet, not sinners.

Rajni · Sep 4, 2017

Another Lazarus said:
God have special covenant with the ancestors of the Hebrew, Abraham, Ishac and Jacob thats why God permit Himself to be sought by those Hebrew who didnt seek God.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

Another Lazarus · Sep 4, 2017

RayJeena said:
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

You're right man, but people doesnt look at nature as God's creation but as mere evolution.

ananda · Sep 4, 2017

Another Lazarus said:
Will you follow the deceased instead of the Living ?

No, I follow the Teachings, not the deceased.

ananda · Sep 4, 2017

Another Lazarus said:
They are the holy prophet, not sinners.

Why should we have faith that they are holy prophets?

dlamberth · Sep 4, 2017

miknik5 said:
You know THE GOSPEL..

Sadly, you don't believe it because you base validation of its claims on your lower carnal senses.

Interesting statement. It wasn't even directed to me and I still find it offensive.

Personally, I find that my higher directed senses believes that the wrong gospel is being preached. How do my higher senses see that? Because my higher senses sees that if the right gospel was presented I have no doubt that today we would see a lot less war, famine, homelessness, all people with medical access and clean water, clean oceans and air and a much better world all around. But we don't see that.

If Reincarnation is true then Jesus was sacrificed for no good

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