MJ and Oral Torah

pat34lee

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I think you should reread that parsha.

Phinehas was the grandson of Aaron, the great grandnephew of Moses, a Priest.

1 And Israel abode in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim, and the people began to commit harlotry with the daughters of Moab. 2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods; and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.3 And Israel joined himself unto the Baal of Peor; and the anger of the L-RD was kindled against Israel.

4
And the L-RD said unto Moses: 'Take all the chiefs of the people, and hang them up unto the L-RD in face of the sun, that the fierce anger of the L-RD may turn away from Israel.'

5
And Moses said unto the judges of Israel: 'Slay ye every one his men that have joined themselves unto the Baal of Peor.

'6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, while they were weeping at the door of the tent of meeting.

7
And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from the midst of the congregation, and took a spear in his hand. 8 And he went after the man of Israel into the chamber, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. 9 And those that died by the plague were twenty and four thousand.

Numbers 25
My quote:
"Phinehas was one of the judges (v 5, 7)
commanded by Moses to kill (v 5)
those who had joined Moab and turned against Yahweh. (v 1-3)
Moses in turn, had been commanded by Yahweh. (v 4)

Who told the Maccabees or Esther?"
 
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pat34lee

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I beg to differ, see above, it's not about doing something 'heroic' it's about doing something righteous, even if by a few.

Not sure what you are referring to here, so can't comment.

Righteous is only defined by doing what Yahweh commands.
Not what works or seems good to us.

Yahweh sent Moses to bring Israel out of Egypt.
He made Cyrus return Judah from Babylon.
When he brings judgment, only he brings the release.
This is why Joseph served Egypt, from slave to leader.
And why Daniel served in Babylon his whole life.
They didn't look to escape or fight, but to endure and
work to seek peace in the land where they lived.
Jeremiah 29:5-7
 
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Lulav

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Who told the Maccabees or Esther?"

Who told them to be zealous for their G-d and people?

The Torah.

Yeshua called it the greatest commandment

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him,
"Which is the first commandment of all?"

And Yeshua answered him:

"The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."
 
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pat34lee

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pat34lee

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Sorry, that's not how I read it. As I said, Phinehas was not a Judge, he was Kohanim.

It says, 'when he saw it', not 'when Moses told him to...'

he did it out of knowing the law and for his own zealousness of upholding it to his G-d.

Judges could be anyone. Even if not, Moses put out word to
kill all who joined to baal of Peor. After this call, a man brought
one of the women right into the middle of the camp, in front of
Moses and all, and Phinehas killed them both.

The Levites had been called to be executioners before,
at the incident of the golden calf.
Exodus 32:26-28
 
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Open Heart

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Well one example is that they used the work on the Mishkan to determine just what 'work' was, what not to do on Shabbat.
I think we had a misunderstanding. I do understand you now.
 
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Open Heart

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When Akiva named bar Kochba the messiah, it was purposely done in order to keep the followers of Yeshua separate.
Baloney. It was done because they believed bar Kochba to be the Messiah in earnest.
 
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Open Heart

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No, it wasn't the only reason. They also neglected the land again.
The diaspora was punishment by God, not neglect by Jews.

"Let his blood be upon us, and our children."
1. This curse only applied to those who said it.
2. It was forgiven by Yeshua on the cross.
 
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pat34lee

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Baloney. It was done because they believed bar Kochba to be the Messiah in earnest.

On what grounds? He had fulfilled no prophecies,
and had just begun the ultimately failed rebellion
against the Roman empire. Simon Ben Cosiba was
nobody until Akiva pronounced him messiah and
changed his name to Bar Kochba.
 
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pat34lee

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The diaspora was punishment by God, not neglect by Jews.

1. This curse only applied to those who said it.
2. It was forgiven by Yeshua on the cross.

Punishment, in part, for neglecting the Sabbaths of
the land; letting it rest every seventh year. Speaking
of which, that is building up again in Israel. Selling off
the land for one year is not the same as letting it rest.
Do people think Yahweh is fooled so easily?

Words have power and consequences, forgiven or not.
Proverbs 18:21
Matthew 12:35-37
 
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Open Heart

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Punishment, in part, for neglecting the Sabbaths of
the land; letting it rest every seventh year. Speaking
of which, that is building up again in Israel. Selling off
the land for one year is not the same as letting it rest.
Do people think Yahweh is fooled so easily?
What grounds do you base this idea that Second Temple Jews were not following the laws for letting the land rest every seventh year?

Today the Jews in Israel are secular. They do not keep the Sabbaths.
 
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Open Heart

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It is written... Genesis - Deuteronomy
Not all of it is written. And if you had read the article, you would have been given examples in scripture of i.e. prophets warning Israel of dire punishments for breaking laws that are not written in Torah but are part of Oral Torah, such as carrying objects from inside of the home to the outside on Shabbat.
 
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Open Heart

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On what grounds? He had fulfilled no prophecies
Actually he was fulfilling many of the kingly messianic prophecies by acting as a deliverer of Israel. Ultimately he failed, meaning he wasn't the messiah after all. But while the war was on, he was a great candidate.
 
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pat34lee

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What grounds do you base this idea that Second Temple Jews were not following the laws for letting the land rest every seventh year?

Today the Jews in Israel are secular. They do not keep the Sabbaths.

Conjecture for the most part based on earlier judgments.
I'll let you know if I find anything concrete.

A few do. Some of them came up with the trick I mentioned earlier.
Which can cause its own problems.
'Shmita Goy' forgets to show up for land sale
 
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Mercymessianicjudiasm

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Work constitutes work. I don't believe it is exactly
the same for everyone. What if I'm a proofreader?
Does that mean I can't read on the Sabbath?
Work is gathering up that holy bread each day and carrying it back to your tent. After your work is done, gathering up manna that fell from heaven each day for six days, double portion on the sixth day. The Sabbath day bread was the only bread that did not spoil but was preserved until the following day. We observe the Sabbath so that we may walk by faith in the wilderness in hope that we may receive a double portion, like Elisha the prophet, in the days of Elijah.
 
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Open Heart

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Work constitutes work. I don't believe it is exactly
the same for everyone. What if I'm a proofreader?
Does that mean I can't read on the Sabbath?
The Torah works communally. Israel was a SOCIETY, a People, and they had common judges who meeted out punishments for breaking the Law. If each individual had a different definition of "work," it would have been chaos. There is no way a justice system could have worked. Please rethink your idea that "work" is not the same for everyone.

Part of the definition is that you do not have anything to do with money aka business. According to Orthodox Judaism just as one example, we wouldn't even carry money or have it lying around the home. If you have a job as a proofreader, you are exchanging proofreading for money, thus it would be forbidden for the proofreader (as well as for anyone tempted to work at a paid job).
 
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