The Trouble with Tribbers

But... Christ Jesus comes as a thief... In ordinary, plain, days!

Anto9us said:

A problem I have with Rapture theory involves the GAP which pre-trib/mid-trib and post-trib put between the 69th and 70th week.

There is no biblical precedent that I can see for God declaring a certain number of years would go by until X, and then CALLING TIME-OUT before X and having "the prophetic clock STOP" as Dispensationalists are wont to say.

God predicted the jews would be in bondage in Egypt for a given amount of time -- that time ran concurrently -- no GAP.

Jeremiah predicted the seventy years captivity in Babylon. The time ran consecutively -- no GAP.

Daniel predicts seventy shauvim, which we see are weeks of years and beginning with a certain decree we come right to Messiah -- we should expect the time to run consecutively -- just as did the predictions of Bondage in Egypt and captivity in Babylon.

No justification for

"Oh, but wait, TIMEOUT! King's X!! The prophetic clock STOPPED!"

A special (false) hermeneutic is applied to Daniel's 70 weeks about this alleged GAP, when the time should be consecutive just like Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon. Don't you see how unfairly this time-period (70 weeks) is treated when we know from Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon that these forecasted lengths of time run without a break?

It's a miraculous thing that a prophet can prophesy X amount of years in Bondage to Egypt and it come to pass!

It's an awesome thing that Jeremiah can predict 70 years of Babylonian captivity and it come to pass!

It's a mind-blowing thing that Daniel can prophesy of when Messiah will be cut off -- centuries beforehand -- even the people that think Daniel was written ex eventu in Maccabean period can't get away from the fact that Messiah being cut off is right on the nose; whichever date for authorship of Daniel is taken as true -- either is still WELL BEFORE JESUS!!

So we have a third prediction of years -- just like Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon -- but people throw this GAP in there; no biblical hermeneutical warrant for that.

Seventy shauvim were prophesied, and they ran their course.

We still have a separate prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2 about a Day of Christ, His coming and our gathering together unto Him -- a revealing of a son of perdition who will be destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's parousia -- that's future, hasn't happened yet.

But Daniel's 70 weeks are history.

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Anto9us, between Jesus's first coming and Jesus's second coming - is there a gap? And is that gap, undefined as there being a specific number of years between the first coming and second coming?

Since in terms of years that number is undefined - there is a undefined number of years between Daniel 9, the 69th week and the 70th week.

Revelation is about Jesus's second coming, and the 7 years leading up to it.

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Anto9us said:

A problem I have with Rapture theory involves the GAP which pre-trib/mid-trib and post-trib put between the 69th and 70th week.

There is no biblical precedent that I can see for God declaring a certain number of years would go by until X, and then CALLING TIME-OUT before X and having "the prophetic clock STOP" as Dispensationalists are wont to say.

God predicted the jews would be in bondage in Egypt for a given amount of time -- that time ran concurrently -- no GAP.

Jeremiah predicted the seventy years captivity in Babylon. The time ran consecutively -- no GAP.

Daniel predicts seventy shauvim, which we see are weeks of years and beginning with a certain decree we come right to Messiah -- we should expect the time to run consecutively -- just as did the predictions of Bondage in Egypt and captivity in Babylon.

No justification for

"Oh, but wait, TIMEOUT! King's X!! The prophetic clock STOPPED!"

A special (false) hermeneutic is applied to Daniel's 70 weeks about this alleged GAP, when the time should be consecutive just like Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon. Don't you see how unfairly this time-period (70 weeks) is treated when we know from Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon that these forecasted lengths of time run without a break?

It's a miraculous thing that a prophet can prophesy X amount of years in Bondage to Egypt and it come to pass!

It's an awesome thing that Jeremiah can predict 70 years of Babylonian captivity and it come to pass!

It's a mind-blowing thing that Daniel can prophesy of when Messiah will be cut off -- centuries beforehand -- even the people that think Daniel was written ex eventu in Maccabean period can't get away from the fact that Messiah being cut off is right on the nose; whichever date for authorship of Daniel is taken as true -- either is still WELL BEFORE JESUS!!

So we have a third prediction of years -- just like Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon -- but people throw this GAP in there; no biblical hermeneutical warrant for that.

Seventy shauvim were prophesied, and they ran their course.

We still have a separate prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2 about a Day of Christ, His coming and our gathering together unto Him -- a revealing of a son of perdition who will be destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's parousia -- that's future, hasn't happened yet.

But Daniel's 70 weeks are history.

Click to expand...

You are 100% correct on everything, except one small detail.
All post-trib proponents do not believe in a gap.

The follow confirm what you said above.

The New Covenant had already been promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah, when Gabriel appeared to reveal the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah.

Christ fulfilled Daniel 9:24 during the first century, based on Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18.

There was a period of time of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles, based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18.


Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023


Daniel 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

Nice Work.

Thanks for speaking the truth, but gird your loins for the personal attacks from those who do not like to see their doctrine challenged.

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Anto9us said:

Doesn't apply -- never was a certain number of years prophesied between Jesus' first coming and second coming.

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Is there a gap in Daniel 11 and Daniel 8 of what are now historic fulfillment - and what is end times fulfillment?

Daniel 9, the last week is not an isolated prophecy. It connects with Daniel 8 and Daniel 11/12.
Revelation, the majority of the chapters are structured on the final week of Daniel 9.

Daniel 9, gives the number of weeks to the messiah's arrival and being cutoff. 69 weeks. It informs that the temple and city would be destroyed. And it identifies the prince who shall come being from that people. And it indicates that person will confirm the covenant with many for 7 years - which the confirming of the covenant for 7 years is found in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 - in text as being a requirement placed up the leader(s) of Israel.

You can't just take Daniel 9 and treat it as the only book in the bible.

It may simplify things to look at it all this way. You decide

The Return of Jesus

/nvm

/nvm

Anto9us said:

A problem I have with Rapture theory involves the GAP which pre-trib/mid-trib and post-trib put between the 69th and 70th week.

There is no biblical precedent that I can see for God declaring a certain number of years would go by until X, and then CALLING TIME-OUT before X and having "the prophetic clock STOP" as Dispensationalists are wont to say.

God predicted the jews would be in bondage in Egypt for a given amount of time -- that time ran concurrently -- no GAP.

Jeremiah predicted the seventy years captivity in Babylon. The time ran consecutively -- no GAP.

Daniel predicts seventy shauvim, which we see are weeks of years and beginning with a certain decree we come right to Messiah -- we should expect the time to run consecutively -- just as did the predictions of Bondage in Egypt and captivity in Babylon.

No justification for

"Oh, but wait, TIMEOUT! King's X!! The prophetic clock STOPPED!"

A special (false) hermeneutic is applied to Daniel's 70 weeks about this alleged GAP, when the time should be consecutive just like Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon. Don't you see how unfairly this time-period (70 weeks) is treated when we know from Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon that these forecasted lengths of time run without a break?

It's a miraculous thing that a prophet can prophesy X amount of years in Bondage to Egypt and it come to pass!

It's an awesome thing that Jeremiah can predict 70 years of Babylonian captivity and it come to pass!

It's a mind-blowing thing that Daniel can prophesy of when Messiah will be cut off -- centuries beforehand -- even the people that think Daniel was written ex eventu in Maccabean period can't get away from the fact that Messiah being cut off is right on the nose; whichever date for authorship of Daniel is taken as true -- either is still WELL BEFORE JESUS!!

So we have a third prediction of years -- just like Bondage in Egypt and Captivity in Babylon -- but people throw this GAP in there; no biblical hermeneutical warrant for that.

Seventy shauvim were prophesied, and they ran their course.

We still have a separate prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2 about a Day of Christ, His coming and our gathering together unto Him -- a revealing of a son of perdition who will be destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's parousia -- that's future, hasn't happened yet.

But Daniel's 70 weeks are history.

Click to expand...

Luke 4:17-21 = GAP!!

Jesus made a gap, and you're still in it.

SeventyOne said:

Luke 4:17-21 = GAP!!

Jesus made a gap, and you're still in it.

Click to expand...

Can you explain please.

LastSeven said:

Can you explain please.

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Jesus was reading from Isaiah 61:1:2 in Luke 4:18-19. He then declared that portion to be fulfilled.

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”

The problem is that He stopped mid-sentence. He left out the phrase, 'and the day of vengeance of our God'. We know from the written accounts and other prophecies the day of God's vengeance was not fulfilled on that day as well, and is still awaiting fulfillment. No one who ever read that passage in Isaiah prior to that day would be justified in inserting a gap, but the gap was there nonetheless and we see it in hindsight.

So, when it comes to the OP, his 'trouble with tribbers' is not that the gap was overtly stated before, but it is the same gap Jesus made known to us that is still ongoing and we can also see it in hindsight.

No offense, but that's pretty weak.

First of all, we know from a myriad other examples in scripture that what we read is not always word for word accurate. Just compare the various gospels that describe the same scenes but use different wording. So to point to the omission of "the day of vengeance of our Lord" as proof of a gap is very weak indeed.

Secondly, what makes you so sure the day of vengeance is still future?

LastSeven said:

No offense, but that's pretty weak.

First of all, we know from a myriad other examples in scripture that what we read is not always word for word accurate. Just compare the various gospels that describe the same scenes but use different wording. So to point to the omission of "the day of vengeance of our Lord" as proof of a gap is very weak indeed.

Secondly, what makes you so sure the day of vengeance is still future?

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Perhaps you might want to put some thought and study into it. If you think about what I said, your response doesn't even make logical sense.

The gap is there, regardless of if others recognize it or not.

Anto9us said:

Luk 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Luk 21:21
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luk 21:22
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

When Jesus was reading the Isaiah scroll in the synagogue, maybe he left out 'days of vengeance' because Israel still had a chance to accept their Messiah - but by the time they see 'Jerusalem compassed with armies' (parallel to Abomination of Desolation in Matthew) - it's too late...

Jerusalem, Jerusalem that He would have gathered like a hen gathers her chicks WOULD NOT, and her house is left desolate

I see no GAP - Daniel's 70 weeks runs consecutively from a decree to rebuild Jerusalem after Babylonian Exile up through stoning of Stephen - Israel has HAD THEIR SHOT

Soon after that, Peter sees vision on rooftop, converts Cornelius, and Israel is not exclusive anymore - Gentile wild olive branches start getting grafted in, fruitless natural branches are trimmed off...

The natural branches can be grafted in again, but I don't look for a scenario like LEFT BEHIND books paint.

Christians DID FLEE -- to Pella -- at AoD/Jerusalem compassed with armies. That's HISTORY -- as is Daniel's 70 shauvim.

As to present day Israel -- I dunno -- I don't go all the way and say THE CHURCH IS THE NEW ISRAEL; neither do I say Church is snatched out and God starts accepting animal sacrifices again, what an insult to Christ's sacrifice that would be.

There is no SEVEN YEAR PERIOD in Revelation -- lengths are 42 months, or "time, times and half a time"; one has to double it to get a "7 year Trib" -- I just don't see it.

Click to expand...

You're in for a bit of a surprise.

Anto9us said:

A problem I have with Rapture theory involves the GAP which pre-trib/mid-trib and post-trib put between the 69th and 70th week.

There is no biblical precedent that I can see for God declaring a certain number of years would go by until X, and then CALLING TIME-OUT before X and having "the prophetic clock STOP" as Dispensationalists are wont to say.

God predicted the jews would be in bondage in Egypt for a given amount of time -- that time ran concurrently -- no GAP.

Jeremiah predicted the seventy years captivity in Babylon. The time ran consecutively -- no GAP.

Click to expand...

You are just WRONG in your conclusion. You are missing "Gods Riddle". Jesus expressly told the Disciples that God talks to us in riddles/parables so that we can understand His desires but the world can not understand His desires/will.

So what Riddle am I speaking of that basically proves you wrong on this count? Ezekiel's "Valley of Dry Bones" is the key to unlocking three "Gaps" which are really one gap. The Statue of Dan. 2, the Beasts of Dan. 7 and the 70 Weeks Prophecy of Jeremiah as confirmed by Daniel via the Angel Gabriel.

In Ezekiel ch. 36 we see that God prophesies unto the Mountains/Rivers/Valleys etc. because Israel has been led away captive and the heathens have taken the land, so God prophesies that he will bring Israel back into the land. Then of course in Ezekiel ch. 37 we get the Valley of dry bones prophecy, and God shows Israel as Dead men's bones, so ISRAEL is a DEAD COUNTRY according to none other than God Himself. Then God asks Ezekiel, Can these bones live again, and he answered God with YOU KNOW GOD (LOL Good answer).........and then God showed Ezekiel the bones coming back to life !! Skin came upon them, God breathed life into them and the Bones shook and came together.

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

So the reason you have a "GAP" in all of these prophesies is you have a Gap in the story of Israel. Israel was no more, thus the Statue as seen from Israel's perspective goes like this ( Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome..........Israel is no more after 70-125 A.D. to 1948...........The 10 toes and the Little Horn finish the Statue.

The Beasts of Daniel/Revelation Heads represent Kingdoms that have Conquered/Enslaved or Ruled Israel. Daniel prophesies about the Beast from Daniels time on via Nebuchadnezzar. They were Babylon, Mede-Persia, Greece, Rome.......Israel was no more so there could be No Beast.......then Israel was reborn in 1948 ( Can these Bones live again !! ), and the Anti-Christ/Little Horn by Conquering Jerusalem will become the last Beast.

The Book of Revelation tells the full story, it incorporates the Beasts of Dan. 7 but also gives us all the Kingdoms that have Conquered/Ruled Israel throughout their Whole history. We get Egypt who enslaved Israel, Assyria who took the 10 Northern Tribes into slavery, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome.............GAP of almost 2000 Years with No Israel thus NO BEASTS............Israel is Reborn as a Nation, the Little Horn/ Anti-Christ/ European President who comes forth to Conquer Jerusalem will become the Seventh Head of the Seven Headed Beast of Rev. 13. Thus the "Mortal Wound" was Rome, the Beast died in 70-125 AD, when Israel became as Dead Men's Bones, and when Israel's Bones came alive again, then and only then could the Beast be REVIVED and that will happen when the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem.

As per the 70th Week Prophecy, it is three Prophesies not One. We have a Prophesy of 7 x 7, 62 x 7 ans 1 x 7. Thus God even brought this prophesy forth with the understanding that there was a GAP in between these three prophesies. Else why not just have one 70 x 7? God foreknew that Israel would be as Dead Men's Bones, of course.