What is your interest for a new CF Christian Community forum for mainline Presbyterianism?

Protestant Liberalism has very little in common with conservative Presbyterianism, so it would make sense; however, I am for it for negative reasons, not positive.

I've very interested, but I'd suggest mainline Presbyterian / Reformed / United, including PCUSA, ECO, RCA, UCC, United Church of Canada and similar churches in other countries. They are all broadly Reformed. (The United Church of .... in most countries seem to have gotten the most members from Presbyterian and Reformed traditions.) I'd propose that it replace the existing UCC forum. I haven't seen a posting from an actual UCC member there for quite some time.

You probably need to do something to clarify the relationship with the current Presbyterian and Reformed forums, like call them "conservative" or "traditional." The SOP makes that clear, of course, but people scanning the forum list won't see that. This is particularly true for Presbyterian, where the largest body is actually the liberal one. Having a forum "Presbyterian" and another "Mainline Presbyterian" is going to be confusing.

The real question is whether there are enough mainline folks here to support a forum. But widening UCC to include all mainline Reformed can't hurt.

Homosexuality and transgender poses an interesting problem. Of the churches that would fit into this group theologically, not all allow gay ordination, much less marriage. Some are going through the issue now. Discussion needs to be allowed, but I'd like to see a special rule that says that all participants should conduct themselves in a way that welcome people with both views. It should be possible for someone from the ECO (which is theologically identical to the PCUSA except for acceptance of gays) to participate without feeling unwelcome. I'm not sure how likely we are to get participation from non-US churches, but several of them do not currently permit full participation of gays, but are going through this issue now and are likely to change.

I initially said that we should prohibit condemnation of both views. But that's not good enough. We should expect actual Christian behavior towards each other.

The liberal group permits discussion, but there's a presumption that all participants accept gays. That presumption would not work for a broad-based mainline group.

You mean like a new website for them? My honest opinion is it seems kind of pointless. If they want it because of to much argument here, it won't really change anything. There are many denominations on this forum so we all tend to disagree with each other. And even among the people who would use the new one, they would likely have disagreements too. Every church I have gone to (various denominations) always has people who disagree about things.

Now if you are talking about adding a new section to the forum, that would be fine I imagine. There are many sections just for specific groups of people.

hedrick said:

I've very interested, but I'd suggest mainline Presbyterian / Reformed / United, including PCUSA, ECO, RCA, UCC, United Church of Canada and similar churches in other countries. They are all broadly Reformed. (The United Church of .... in most countries seem to have gotten the most members from Presbyterian and Reformed traditions.) I'd propose that it replace the existing UCC forum. I haven't seen a posting from an actual UCC member there for quite some time.

You probably need to do something to clarify the relationship with the current Presbyterian and Reformed forums, like call them "conservative" or "traditional." The SOP makes that clear, of course, but people scanning the forum list won't see that. This is particularly true for Presbyterian, where the largest body is actually the liberal one. Having a forum "Presbyterian" and another "Mainline Presbyterian" is going to be confusing.

The real question is whether there are enough mainline folks here to support a forum. But widening UCC to include all mainline Reformed can't hurt.

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Very good suggestions! If this new forum gets approved we will update the existing forum purpose statement with something along the lines of a NAPARC denominational emphasis.

AMR said:

Very good suggestions! If this new forum gets approved we will update the existing forum purpose statement with something along the lines of a NAPARC denominational emphasis.

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Right. But in principle CF is international. NAPARC is worth listing, but I'd try to find an international equivalent.

hedrick said:

Right. But in principle CF is international. NAPARC is worth listing, but I'd try to find an international equivalent.

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Let's let the conservatives take care of the conservative forums. If in fact there ends up two distinct groups, I would not expect the Conservatives telling the Liberals how to run their sub-forum.

My denomination is the Conservative Congregational Christian Confrence. My community church was a spin off of a Presbyterian church about 70 years ago. Which one is the conservative forum?☺

For years, Presbyterians and Reformed faiths shared one area: Semper Reformanda.

Not to long ago, Presbyterians were granted their own area.

Confessional, Covenantal, Creedal-Presbyterian

They getting another area?

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

For years, Presbyterians and Reformed faiths shared one area: Semper Reformanda.

Not to long ago, Presbyterians were granted their own area.

Confessional, Covenantal, Creedal-Presbyterian

They getting another area?

God Bless

Till all are one.

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The SOF for the current Presbyterian group excludes most Presbyterians.

hedrick said:

The SOF for the current Presbyterian group excludes most Presbyterians.

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I beg to differ.

hedrick said:

The SOF for the current Presbyterian group excludes most Presbyterians.

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Can I ask -- just to stay informed on what modern Presbyterians believe -- what points in the SOF would exclude a typical member of the PCUSA? I can see that bullet #1 is very close to an assertion of inerrancy. Any other issues?

PloverWing said:

Can I ask -- just to stay informed on what modern Presbyterians believe -- what points in the SOF would exclude a typical member of the PCUSA? I can see that bullet #1 is very close to an assertion of inerrancy. Any other issues?

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I'm not sure there's a problem with the authority of Scripture as stated, though conservatives would probably say that we deny it in practice.

• Westminster is no longer the standard. It's one of a group, and has in some areas been superseded by more recent confessional documents.
• TULIP is not a standard. Some would agree and some would not. In the churches I'm familiar with, probably most members would not agree.
• During my time as a Presbyterian I've not heard of a covenant of works. Partly because most of us don't think Adam actually existed.
• Many of our members accept homosexuality and gay marriage as acceptable for Christians. (This needs to be stated carefully because many members do not. Denominational policy allows both positions. However a PCUSA group would certainly allow it to be discussed.)
• Our definition of confessional is different. We believe the Church is confessional because theology is a community enterprise, not "me and the Bible." The community expresses itself from time to time through confessions. We do not believe that being confessional commits us to unchanging belief in 17th Cent confessions.

My understanding is that the current Presbyterian group was actually created as a place for conservatives, because the main Presbyterian group was dominated by PCUSA people. I wasn't around, so I can't testify to this, but that was what I heard. No one seemed to know how the original group vanished. Certainly a group created for all Presbyterians would have a different SOF. It would probably look more like the Lutheran group, which explicitly describes both approaches to Lutheranism.

Note however that I would recommend a group for mainline Presbyterians and Reformed, as well as the "united" churches of several countries (as the primary contributor to the union tended to be Presbyterian and / or Reformed). I don't think separate groups for mainline Presbyterian and Reformed are needed.

beloved7 said:

My denomination is the Conservative Congregational Christian Confrence. My community church was a spin off of a Presbyterian church about 70 years ago. Which one is the conservative forum?☺

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If we form a separate forum for mainline groups, the conservative forum will be the one you are posting in now.

Thanks!

nm

I'd be interested in being a part of such a forum if it were along the lines of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, adhered to the Westminster Confessions and the Holy Bible doctrinally. If such a forum followed 'cultural norms' of this day and age, as some Presbyterian denominations do, I'd have no interest in participating.