Clean and Un-clean Food

gadar perets · Sep 3, 2017

Aseyesee said:
The first commandment in the garden becomes further defined by each ensuing commandment.

Here no distinction is made between clean and uclean in reference to quantiy (gathering food to eat for himself and for those that were to be kept alive).

Gen 6:20-21 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.

At the time Noah loaded the ark with food, the only food for both man and animals were plants.

Gen 1:29 And Elohim said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creeps upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Animal flesh was not given as food until they left the ark.

If we're think in natural terms, couldn't we assume a year's time in the ark would have been suffcient time for the animals to have procreated ...

Yes, we could assume that, but what about those animals that have gestation period longer than one year which is about how long Noah was on the ark? Elephants, for example, carry their young for almost two years before they are born. Had Noah eaten one elephant upon exiting the ark, we would have no elephants today.

Also, I doubt YHWH called full grown animals to board the ark because of space limitation. One full grown elephant or dinosaur, for example, would take up an awful lot of room. Enough food was taken for the animals on the ark, not for all the animals that might be born on the ark. Also, t takes a male elephant, for example, at least ten years to start producing sperm.

It is obvious that seven pairs of clean animals were taken for sacrificing and for eating, but only two of each unclean animal because they were neither sacrificed, nor eaten.

Aseyesee · Sep 3, 2017

CherubRam said:
Romans 14:14
I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.

In some ways this is the end of the law, not that it has ended, but where we find it's end at in respect to our own soul.

Heber Book List · Sep 3, 2017

gadar perets said:
I disagree. See my last post. Anything said to be unclean in Torah is universally unclean. It was never created to be eaten.

I agree, but this is not limited to Jews. The same holds true for all people. The distinction between clean and unclean animals existed before the Jews existed. It is a universal law.

There is not, and has not been, a universal law from G_d against eating that which is prohibited in Judaism, of which I am aware. Jews, of course, may feel otherwise and, perhaps, rightly so. In Christian Testament times, restrictions were placed on proselytes, or would be proselytes, but in general kosher / kashrut laws were given to, and for, Judaism.

gadar perets · Sep 3, 2017

Heber Book List said:
There is not, and has not been, a universal law from G_d against eating that which is prohibited in Judaism, of which I am aware. Jews, of course, may feel otherwise and, perhaps, rightly so. In Christian Testament times, restrictions were placed on proselytes, or would be proselytes, but in general kosher / kashrut laws were given to, and for, Judaism.

So, are you saying all people prior to the first Jew could eat unclean animals? Why, then, did such a distinction exist in Noah's day?

Heber Book List · Sep 3, 2017

gadar perets said:
So, are you saying all people prior to the first Jew could eat unclean animals? Why, then, did such a distinction exist in Noah's day?

Who was the first Jew?

gadar perets · Sep 3, 2017

Heber Book List said:
Who was the first Jew?

Yehudah, but even if you think it was Jacob or even Abraham, the same question applies.

Heber Book List · Sep 3, 2017

gadar perets said:
Yehudah, but even if you think it was Jacob or even Abraham, the same question applies.

Abram was a Gentile.

The earliest record of meat being eaten is, as far as I can see, Genesis 4:1-5 The animal was slaughtered and the fat parts were offered to G_d. It is reasonable to assume that the rest of the animal(s) was (were) consumed - why else would they even think of killing 'some of the firstborn of his flock'? To what purpose was the meat put, if not eaten, every time a sacrifice was made for an offering to G_d? How did they know to make an offering?

G_d issued the edict to Noach because G_d was wiping out everything, and starting again but, obviously, Noach knew what was now clean, and what was not, at the point of building the ark as presumably G_d had revealed this to him as part of the new regime.

Although meat had been eaten prior to the ark (as above), possibly without G_d's specific authority or approval, G_d regularised the position from thereon for all Noach's descendants by introducing selective food choices from which we get the food Laws.

gadar perets · Sep 3, 2017

Heber Book List said:
Abram was a Gentile.

As were Isaac and Jacob.

The earliest record of meat being eaten is, as far as I can see, Genesis 4:1-5 The animal was slaughtered and the fat parts were offered to G_d. It is reasonable to assume that the rest of the animal(s) was (were) consumed - why else would they even think of killing 'some of the firstborn of his flock'? To what purpose was the meat put, if not eaten, every time a sacrifice was made for an offering to G_d? How did they know to make an offering?

YHWH would have taught them to make an offering. Abel offered the entire animal with the fat. Genesis 4:4 does not state or imply a separation of the fat for YHWH and the flesh for Abel. It was most likely totally consumed like a burnt offering. Animal flesh was not given as food for man or beast until after the flood (Genesis 1:29-30; Genesis 9:3b).

G_d issued the edict to Noach because G_d was wiping out everything, and starting again, but obviously, Noach knew what was clean, and what was not, at the point of building the ark as presumably G_d had revealed this to him as part of the new regime.

If Noach already knew of the distinction, then so did Abel so he could offer only clean animals. When you say "starting again", that did not include giving them animal flesh to eat again since they never ate it prior to the flood.

Although meat had been eaten prior to the ark (as above), possibly without G_d's specific authority or approval, G_d regularised the position from thereon for all Noach's descendants by introducing selective food choices from which we get the food Laws.

You are assuming meat was eaten prior to the ark, but Genesis 1:29-30 coupled with Genesis 9:3b disproves that. It seems as though you are saying Noach kept the dietary laws. If so, then you are contradicting your previous statement in post #23 that the kosher laws were only for Judaism.
If not, what are the "selective food choices" he made?

When YHWH gave Israel the dietary laws, it was to codify and expound upon what already existed. YHWH was clarifying the distinction between clean and unclean animals. He was not making new laws only for Judaism.

We also see that YHWH's fiery end time judgment will consume ALL FLESH that eat swine's flesh and other abominations (Isaiah 66:15-17). How can YHWH judge those people for eating unclean meat if He allows Christians to eat unclean meat? Perhaps He will be more merciful to Christians come judgment day, but the fact remains that the dietary laws are universal and all will be judged by them as well as by the Ten Commandments and other laws.

Heber Book List · Sep 3, 2017

gadar perets said:
As were Isaac and Jacob.

YHWH would have taught them to make an offering. Abel offered the entire animal with the fat. Genesis 4:4 does not state or imply a separation of the fat for YHWH and the flesh for Abel. It was most likely totally consumed like a burnt offering. Animal flesh was not given as food for man or beast until after the flood (Genesis 1:29-30; Genesis 9:3b).

If Noach already knew of the distinction, then so did Abel so he could offer only clean animals. When you say "starting again", that did not include giving them animal flesh to eat again since they never ate it prior to the flood.

You are assuming meat was eaten prior to the ark, but Genesis 1:29-30 coupled with Genesis 9:3b disproves that. It seems as though you are saying Noach kept the dietary laws. If so, then you are contradicting your previous statement in post #23 that the kosher laws were only for Judaism.
If not, what are the "selective food choices" he made?

When YHWH gave Israel the dietary laws, it was to codify and expound upon what already existed. YHWH was clarifying the distinction between clean and unclean animals. He was not making new laws only for Judaism.

We also see that YHWH's fiery end time judgment will consume ALL FLESH that eat swine's flesh and other abominations (Isaiah 66:15-17). How can YHWH judge those people for eating unclean meat if He allows Christians to eat unclean meat? Perhaps He will be more merciful to Christians come judgment day, but the fact remains that the dietary laws are universal and all will be judged by them as well as by the Ten Commandments and other laws.

As to Cain and Able, it seems to depend on which version of Tanach you read. Some say his offering was OF his firstlings, some say from his firstlings and some are specific about the fat. You pays your money and make your choice it seems.

Having established that as a considered fact in some versions of the Tanach, most of the rest of your points really need no further comment, as I am sure you realise - some have already be dealt with, such as Gen. 9:3

Re the start again, it is clear that G_d was going to destroy everything with the flood except that which was in the ark, so that the world would be kick-started again, with Noach et al, without all the abominations that were happening in it, as is clear from the account.

gadar perets · Sep 3, 2017

Heber Book List said:
As to Cain and Able, it seems to depend on which version of Tanach you read. Some say his offering was OF his firstlings, some say from his firstlings and some are specific about the fat. You pays your money and make your choice it seems.

All versions have ומחלבהן "AND of the fat". It doesn't matter if it is "of his firstlings" or "from his firstlings". He offered a lamb AND the fat.

Having established that as a considered fact in some versions of the Tanach, most of the rest of your points really need no further comment, as I am sure you realise - some have already be dealt with, such as Gen. 9:3

Actually, no one refuted my post #12 addressing Genesis 9:3.

Heber Book List · Sep 3, 2017

gadar perets said:
All versions have ומחלבהן "AND of the fat". It doesn't matter if it is "of his firstlings" or "from his firstlings". He offered a lamb AND the fat.

Actually, no one refuted my post #12 addressing Genesis 9:3.

See the OP and first few posts re Gen. 9. I think comment also appears elsewhere in the thread.

So if we assume a whole lamb was offered, why emphasise the fat - was that written back into the text, if it could not have been known at that point?

gadar perets · Sep 3, 2017

Heber Book List said:
See the OP and first few posts re Gen. 9. I think comment also appears elsewhere in the thread.

In your first post of this thread you wrote, "Noach was given the right to eat meat, which was a first - it had not been given previously." I agree, but later in post #27 you wrote about Abel eating the sacrifice he offered. Please explain the apparent contradiction.

So if we assume a whole lamb was offered, why emphasise the fat - was that written back into the text, if it could not have been known at that point?

I believe YHWH instructed them about fat. If everything was done as with a normal burnt sacrifice, then the fat was burnt separately along with the entire sacrifice. I assume the fat is mentioned to teach us Abel did not offer fat alone, but the entire lamb.

Heber Book List · Sep 3, 2017

gadar perets said:
In your first post of this thread you wrote, "Noach was given the right to eat meat, which was a first - it had not been given previously." I agree, but later in post #27 you wrote about Abel eating the sacrifice he offered. Please explain the apparent contradiction.

I believe YHWH instructed them about fat. If everything was done as with a normal burnt sacrifice, then the fat was burnt separately along with the entire sacrifice. I assume the fat is mentioned to teach us Abel did not offer fat alone, but the entire lamb.

That is easy to answer - G_d had not specifically given any rights on what, or what not, to eat prior to Noach - they were given to him to regularise the position ahead of the re-start that occurred after the flood water receded

If he instructed them about fat, why not instruct them about unclean food as part and parcel of that teaching? Why wait until he has to punish the whole world, to sort out the relatively minor problem about clean vs unclean food?

visionary · Sep 3, 2017

They were sacrificing clean animals in Adam's day, they came into Noah's boat clean by 7 and unclean by 2, Abraham lived by the unclean and clean rules, and by Mount Sinai, the details were written down. What has changed?

gadar perets · Sep 3, 2017

Heber Book List said:
That is easy to answer - G_d had not specifically given any rights on what, or what not, to eat prior to Noach - they were given to him to regularise the position ahead of the re-start that occurred after the flood water receded

So you are saying Abel had no right to eat or not eat the sacrifice he offered? It was his choice? Did he have a choice of offering YHWH a pig?

If he instructed them about fat, why not instruct them about unclean food as part and parcel of that teaching? Why wait until he has to punish the whole world, to sort out the relatively minor problem about clean vs unclean food?

Adam's family did not need to know about clean and unclean "food" because meat was not given to eat until after the flood. However, I believe they were instructed about clean and unclean "sacrifices". That is why Abel offered a lamb and why Noach already knew about the distinction between clean and unclean.

You have not addressed Isaiah 66:15-17. Please do so.

Aseyesee · Sep 3, 2017

Heber Book List said:
That is easy to answer - G_d had not specifically given any rights on what, or what not, to eat prior to Noach

Starts in a garden, ends in a garden.

CherubRam · Sep 3, 2017

Anyone. How long would a person be unclean if they ate pork before a Festival?

gadar perets · Sep 3, 2017

CherubRam said:
Anyone. How long would a person be unclean if they ate pork before a Festival?

As I understand it, until evening (sunset). They would be clean when the sun sets beginning the Festival.

CherubRam · Sep 3, 2017

gadar perets said:
As I understand it, until evening (sunset). They would be clean when the sun sets beginning the Festival.

That does not sound correct. Any scriptures for that?

gadar perets · Sep 3, 2017

CherubRam said:
That does not sound correct. Any scriptures for that?

Leviticus 11:24-25

Clean and Un-clean Food

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