One flesh = a kinship bond, nothing to do with sex or children

Apex · Aug 29, 2017

Lily of Valleys said:
According to the Hebrew text literally word-for-word mechanical translation of Genesis, "one flesh" means "a flesh unit":

2:24
אֶחָּדעַל כֵן יַעֲזָּב אִׁיש אֶת אָבִׁיו וְּאֶת אִׁמוֹ וְּדָּבַק בְּאִׁשְּתוֹ וְּהָּיוּ לְּבָּשָּׂר
Upon So he~ will~ Leave Man At
Father~ him and~ At Mother~ him and~
he~ did~ Adhere in~ Woman~ him and~
they~ did~ Exist to~ Flesh Unit

therefore a man will leave his father
and his mother and he will adhere
with his woman and they will exist
a flesh unit

Words find meaning in context. Please address my evaluations (found in my posts above) of the immediate literary context found in Genesis 2 and how it relates to the broader context of the Old Testament.

1 Corinthians 6:13-20 is about the body of believers being the temple of the Holy Spirit, and is not for immorality. Therefore, we should glorify God in our body, not to sin against our own body.

Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. (1 Corinthians 6:13-20 NASB)

I already addressed the context of this passage in post 5 above.

According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, "flesh" σάρξ in "one flesh" as in verse 16 means:

1. flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood)
2. the body, as a skillful combination of related parts
3. a living creature
4. human nature

I doubt you are suggesting that my wife and I are literally now a single unit of physical flesh. See below for a fuller comment on this.

Apex · Aug 30, 2017

Lily of Valleys said:
According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, "flesh" σάρξ in "one flesh" as in verse 16 means:

1. flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood)
2. the body, as a skillful combination of related parts
3. a living creature
4. human nature

Lexicons work by utilizing context too. I happen to own a copy of Thayer's Greek Lexicon and opened it to this page.

Why did you chop his work apart? The text you left out for brevity is actually the most important stuff. You completely left out the contextual sources he used for each of those definitions and also improperly copied over some of the text. Without this information there is no way to know which meaning is the one Thayer thought was most appropriate for the context of 1 Cor. 6:16. Thayer, in this instance, believed that the word "flesh" in 1 Cor. 6:16 carried the second meaning in that list.

Here is the full quote:

2. i. q. the body, not designating it, however, as a skilful combination of related parts (‘an organism,’ which is denoted by the word σῶμα), but signifying the material or substance of the living body [cf. Aeschyl. Sept. 622 γέροντα τὸν νοῦν σάρκα δʼ ἡβῶσαν φέρει];

Thayer also listed 3 senses in meaning for this option. He placed 1 Cor. 6:16 in the universal sense (a).

a. univ.: Jn. 6:63 (see πνεῦμα, 2 p. 520 mid.); Acts 2:26, 30 Rec.; 2 Co. 12:7; Gal. 4:14; Eph. 5:29; Heb. 9:10, 13; [1 Pet. 3:21]; Jude 8; μία σάρξ, one body, of husband and wife, Mk. 10:8; so εἰς σάρκα μίαν (fr. Gen. 2:24), Mt. 19:5; Mk. 10:8; 1 Co. 6:16; Eph. 5:31; opp. to ψυχή, Acts 2:31 (ἔδωκεν … Ἰησ. Χρ.… τὴν σάρκα ὑπὲρ τῆς σαρκὸς ἡμῶν καὶ τὴν ψυχὴν ὑπὲρ τῶν ψυχῶν ἡμῶν, Clem. Rom. 1 Cor. 49:6 [cf. Iren. 5, 1, 1; but G L T Tr WH drop ἡ ψυχὴ αὐτοῦ in Acts l. c.]); opp. to πνεῦμα (the human), 1 Co. 5:5; 2 Co. 7:1; Col. 2:5; 1 Pet. 3:18; 4:6; σὰρξ κ. αἷμα, i. q. ψυχικὸν σῶμα, 1 Co. 15:50, cf. 44; ἡ περιτομὴ ἐν σαρκί, Ro. 2:28; Eph. 2:11; τὸ πρόσωπόν μου ἐν σαρκί, [A. V. my face in the flesh], my bodily countenance, Col. 2:1; ἀσθένεια σαρκός, of disease, Gal. 4:13; ἐν τῇ θνητῇ σαρκὶ ἡμῶν, 2 Co. 4:11 (cf. ἐν τῷ σώματι ἡμῶν, vs. 10); ἐν τῇ σαρκὶ αὐτοῦ, by giving up his body to death, Eph. 2:14 (15); also διὰ τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ, Heb. 10:20, cf. Jn. 6:51, (προσφέρειν τὴν σάρκα μου, to offer in sacrifice my flesh—Christ is speaking, Barn. ep. 7, 5; τὴν σάρκα παραδοῦναι εἰς καταφθοράν, ibid. 5, 1). life on earth, which is passed in the body (flesh), is designated by the foll. phrases: ἐν σαρκὶ εἶναι, Ro. 7:5 (where Paul uses this expression with designed ambiguity in order to involve also the ethical sense, ‘to be in the power of the flesh,’ to be prompted and governed by the flesh; see 4 below); ζῆν ἐν σαρκί, Gal. 2:20; Phil. 1:22; ἐπιμένειν ἐν σαρκί, Phil. 1:24; ὁ ἐν σαρκὶ χρόνος, 1 Pet. 4:2; αἱ ἡμέραι τῆς σαρκὸς αὐτοῦ, of Christ’s life on earth, Heb. 5:7. ἐν σαρκί or ἐν τῇ σαρκί, in things pertaining to the flesh (body), such as circumcision, descent, etc.: Gal. 6:12 sq.; πεποιθέναι, Phil. 3:3 sq.; ἔχειν πεποίθησιν, Phil. 3:4.

Interestingly, the second sense (b) includes "relationship". Thayer rightly identifies that the verse immediately prior to Genesis 2:24 (LXX), v.23, is Adam using "flesh" in this context. I contend Adam uses this sense in v. 24 too.

b. used of natural or physical origin, generation, relationship: οἱ συγγενεῖς κατὰ σάρκα, Ro. 9:3 [cf. W. § 20, 2 a.]; τέκνα τῆς σαρκός, children by birth, natural posterity, ibid. 8; ἀδελφὸν ἐν σαρκὶ καὶ ἐν κυρίῳ, a natural brother (as it were) and a Christian brother, Philem. 16; οἱ τῆς σαρκὸς ἡμῶν πατέρες, our natural fathers (opp. to God ὁ πατὴρ τῶν πνευμάτων, see πατήρ, 1 a. and 3b.), Heb. 12:9; τὰ ἔθνη ἐν σαρκί, Gentiles by birth, Eph. 2:11; Ἰσραὴλ κατὰ σάρκα, 1 Co. 10:18 (the opposite term Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ, of Christians, is found in Gal. 6:16); τὸ κατὰ σάρκα, as respects the flesh i. e. human origin, Ro. 9:5 [(Clem. Rom. 1 Cor. 32:2; Iren. haer. 4, 4, 1 and frag. 17 cd. Stieren p. 836)]; γενόμενος ἐκ σπέρματος Δαυεὶδ κατὰ σ. Ro. 1:3; ὁ κατὰ σάρκα γεννηθείς, born by natural generation (opp. to ὁ κατὰ πνεῦμα γενν. i. e. by the supernatural power of God, operating in the promise), Gal. 4:29, 23; τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τῆς σαρκὸς σάρξ ἐστιν,that which has been born of the natural man is a natural man (opp. to one who has been born again by the power of the Holy Spirit), Jn. 3:6; ἡ σάρξ μου, those with whom I share my natural origin, my fellow-countrymen, Ro. 11:14 (ἰδοὺ ὀστᾶ σου καὶ σάρκες σου, 2 S. 5:1; add, 19:13; Gen. 37:27; Judg. 9:2); εἶναι ἐκ τῆς σαρκὸς κ. ἐκ τῶν ὀστέων τινός, which in its proper use signifies to be ‘formed out of one’s flesh and bones’ (Gen. 2:23; to be related to one by birth, Gen. 29:14), is transferred metaph. to the church, which spiritually derives its origin from Christ and is united to him, just as Eve drew her origin from her husband Adam, Eph. 5:30 [R G Tr mrg. br.].

I'm not the only one who sees it this way either. In the above sense, Thayer is looking at the Greek Old Testament. However, the Hebrew word being translated is basar. Here is an excerpt from a Hebrew lexicon:

Screen Shot 2017-08-29 at 11.52.32 PM.png

William Lee Holladay and Ludwig Köhler, A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (Leiden: Brill, 2000), 51.

Notice the 7th meaning. It lists both Genesis 2:23 and 2:24 as context proof for "relationship".

Lily of Valleys · Aug 31, 2017

Apex said:
I doubt you are suggesting that my wife and I are literally now a single unit of physical flesh.

"One flesh" is more than simply a relationship, but a special relationship through the physical union of the body. In a similar way, we enter into a special relationship with God through the spiritual union with God. Physical adultery is violating that physical union with your spouse (i.e. sexual immorality), while spiritual adultery is violating that spiritual union with God (i.e. idolatry).

Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. (1 Corinthians 6:16-17 NASB)

Apex said:
First, we must understand in which way Paul is using "body (soma)" here. He seems to use it in various ways throughout this letter and others. Is he speaking about the collective members of the church or just the individual believer? As Westerners, we think that the "you" in this verse is directed at us as an individual. However, the Greek word here is plural.

"Body" in 1 Corinthians 6:13-20 appears to be referring to the physical body of a believer considering the context, even though it was addressed to all believers of the church.

Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. (1 Corinthians 6:15-20 NASB)

Apex said:
Second, we must know what type of prostitute this is. Is Paul talking about a secular prostitute or a temple prostitute? Or, even more interestingly, is this a particular prominent temple prostitute or prostitute-figure - like Aphrodite, who was known as the patroness of prostitutes. The Greek actually says "the prostitute" in this verse. If a prostitute with some type of idolatrous connection is in view here, this passage could mean not to co-mingle allegiances between one deity over another - Christ vs Idol. In this case, by participating in an activity that occurs during the festivities of idol worship - having sex with temple prostitutes. Some former-pagan Christians thought their freedom extended to even such activities as long as they knew the idol was not real. This is the same argument Paul makes about eating sacrificed meat in an idol's temple later in this letter (1 Corinthians 10:14-22). Paul might have used the one flesh analogy to represent the relationship one has with the deity they worship.

If apostle Paul was referring only to a specific type of prostitute, he would have mentioned it in the passage like what he did when he talked about eating food in the temple that was sacrificed to the idols, which can be clearly seen in the context of the passage.

I don't know where you got "the" prostitute in 1 Corinthians 6:16 from, you probably need to ask a native Greek speaker, but most translations such as KJV, NKJV, NABRE, NASB, ESV all translated as "a" prostitute:

1 Corinthians 6:16 - Bible Gateway

So considering the context of the passage, 1 Corinthians 6:16 appears to be a generic statement that applies to any type of prostitute.

Apex · Aug 31, 2017

Lily of Valleys said:
"One flesh" is more than simply a relationship, but a special relationship through the physical union of the body. In a similar way, we enter into a special relationship with God through the spiritual union with God. Physical adultery is violating that physical union with your spouse (i.e. sexual immorality), while spiritual adultery is violating that spiritual union with God (i.e. idolatry).

Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. (1 Corinthians 6:16-17 NASB)

Do you believe that when two people have sexual intercourse they become married? If not, your argument would be inconsistent.

Physical adultery and spiritual adultery are committed the same way—by violating the trust of the relationship. Sex is not the glue in a marriage covenant. Allegiance (loyalty) to the other person is.

"Body" in 1 Corinthians 6:13-20 appears to be referring to the physical body of a believer considering the context, even though it was addressed to all believers of the church.

Paul, in weaving his body analogy, tends to blend his usage of the physical body and the communal body. Since he uses this body analogy in several places throughout his letters—we would be wise to use these in our understanding of the literary context of 1 Corinthians 6. Likewise, we need to pay attention to Paul's temple analogy since he may be coalescing these two analogies in v. 19.

Romans 12:4-5
For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:12, 14-20, 27
For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.

v.14-20
For the body does not consist of one member but of many....But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

v.27
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

Ephesians 5:30
...we are members of his body.

Colossians 1:18, 3:15
And he is the head of the body, the church.

And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body.

From these passages, the human body is being used as an analogy for the church. Believers (members) are united as a church (body) because they are united with Christ. How are they united with Christ? Through allegiance.

The key in knowing if Paul is using "body" communally or individually is his use of supporting words, especially the use of "members" with "one body" and "Christ".

1 Corinthians 6:15-16:
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of the prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her?

Christ is being contrasted to the prostitute. Have you ever wondered how "members of Christ" can be made into "members of the prostitute" and become "one body" if we were not talking communal allegiance? Remember, "members" means "individual believers". Reread v.15-16 with that as the definition of member. The issue is splitting allegiance between two deities.

This is where the temple imagery becomes important. It appears Paul, just like in the later chapters in the letter, is referencing the common idolatrous practices of the Corinthians. They would go to idol temples—eat food and wine offered to idols and have sex with temple prostitutes. We must not throw this historical context out the window.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you [plural] are God’s temple [singular] and that God’s Spirit dwells in you [plural]? If anyone destroys God’s temple [singular], God will destroy him. For God’s temple [singular] is holy, and you [plural] are that temple [singular].

The "you" here is plural and the "temple" is singular. Paul is telling the Corinthians that the church as a whole makes up God's new temple. We are not individual temples that splits the Spirit of God apart into millions of pieces (we are one body in one Spirit with Him, 1 Corinthians 12:13). This is note worthy because we see Paul use this analogy again in 1 Corinthians 6:19:

Flee from harlotry. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own.

The only way this makes since with Paul's earlier use of his temple analogy is if body here is communal. Remember, we are not separate temples, but one together (just like we are one body in one Spirit). This also explains how "every other sin" a person commits is outside the body. If an individual body was in focus, there are many ways to sin against it (alcoholism, suicide, etc.). However, there is only one sin against a communal body that is linked by allegiance and that is one were treason has taken place. By visiting idol temples and partaking in the idolatrous festivities (i.e. food offered to idols and temple prostitutes) that believer (member) is splitting his allegiance to other deity and becoming part of their communal group (one body). The prostitute here is being used a the symbol for the idol, since the idol doesn't actually exist.

Lily of Valleys · Sep 1, 2017

Apex said:
Do you believe that when two people have sexual intercourse they become married? If not, your argument would be inconsistent.

Keep in mind that there was no formal marriage ceremony for Adam and Eve, but Eve was referred to as the wife of Adam by God (Genesis 3:17), which means God considered them husband and wife.

According to Apostle Paul, the purpose of marriage is to avoid sexual immoralities, so yes, the biblical view of marriage cannot be separated from sex:

But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. (1 Corinthians 7:8 NASB)

But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband. The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.(1 Corinthians 7:2-5 NASB)

It has been the teaching throughout the scripture that each person is meant to have only one sexual partner throughout their life unless their sexual partner died, and that sexual partner should be their spouse.

“Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:4-9 NASB)

If a man comes upon a young woman, a virgin who is not betrothed, seizes her and lies with her, and they are discovered, the man who lay with her shall give the young woman’s father fifty silver shekels and she will be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her as long as he lives. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NABRE)

Apex said:
Physical adultery and spiritual adultery are committed the same way—by violating the trust of the relationship. Sex is not the glue in a marriage covenant. Allegiance (loyalty) to the other person is.

That trust of the relationship and loyalty in a marriage rely on you not physically unite with another body other than your spouse. (1 Corinthians 7:4) Spiritual adultery is not a trust violation, God does not and has no need to place His trust on us. Physical adultery has to do with sexual lust according to Jesus:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matthew 5:27-28 NSAB)

Apex said:
Paul, in weaving his body analogy, tends to blend his usage of the physical body and the communal body. Since he uses this body analogy in several places throughout his letters—we would be wise to use these in our understanding of the literary context of 1 Corinthians 6. Likewise, we need to pay attention to Paul's temple analogy since he may be coalescing these two analogies in v. 19.

Romans 12:4-5
For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:12, 14-20, 27
For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.

v.14-20
For the body does not consist of one member but of many....But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.

v.27
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

Ephesians 5:30
...we are members of his body.

Colossians 1:18, 3:15
And he is the head of the body, the church.

And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body.

From these passages, the human body is being used as an analogy for the church. Believers (members) are united as a church (body) because they are united with Christ. How are they united with Christ? Through allegiance.

The key in knowing if Paul is using "body" communally or individually is his use of supporting words, especially the use of "members" with "one body" and "Christ".

1 Corinthians 6:15-16:
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of the prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her?

Christ is being contrasted to the prostitute. Have you ever wondered how "members of Christ" can be made into "members of the prostitute" and become "one body" if we were not talking communal allegiance? Remember, "members" means "individual believers". Reread v.15-16 with that as the definition of member. The issue is splitting allegiance between two deities.

This is where the temple imagery becomes important. It appears Paul, just like in the later chapters in the letter, is referencing the common idolatrous practices of the Corinthians. They would go to idol temples—eat food and wine offered to idols and have sex with temple prostitutes. We must not throw this historical context out the window.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you [plural] are God’s temple [singular] and that God’s Spirit dwells in you [plural]? If anyone destroys God’s temple [singular], God will destroy him. For God’s temple [singular] is holy, and you [plural] are that temple [singular].

The "you" here is plural and the "temple" is singular. Paul is telling the Corinthians that the church as a whole makes up God's new temple. We are not individual temples that splits the Spirit of God apart into millions of pieces (we are one body in one Spirit with Him, 1 Corinthians 12:13). This is note worthy because we see Paul use this analogy again in 1 Corinthians 6:19:

Flee from harlotry. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own.

The only way this makes since with Paul's earlier use of his temple analogy is if body here is communal. Remember, we are not separate temples, but one together (just like we are one body in one Spirit). This also explains how "every other sin" a person commits is outside the body. If an individual body was in focus, there are many ways to sin against it (alcoholism, suicide, etc.). However, there is only one sin against a communal body that is linked by allegiance and that is one were treason has taken place. By visiting idol temples and partaking in the idolatrous festivities (i.e. food offered to idols and temple prostitutes) that believer (member) is splitting his allegiance to other deity and becoming part of their communal group (one body). The prostitute here is being used a the symbol for the idol, since the idol doesn't actually exist.

We need to be careful in how we interpret the scripture within its context, we should not add anything to the scripture beyond what is written. Just because Apostle Paul mentioned eating sacrificed food in an idol's temple somewhere else does not mean everything he says have to be limited to idol's temple or idols or sacrificed food.

Same with the word "body". Even though the term "body" has been used somewhere else to mean church, it doesn't mean "body" has to mean church throughout the scripture. The context is of utmost important. It is clear that the "body" in 1 Corinthians 6:15-20 is referring to the physical body of individual believers.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? (1 Corinthians 6:19 NASB)

All the true believers have the Holy Spirit dwells in them, that is what it means:

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Romans 8:9 NASB)

When we believe in Christ, we are united with God through His Holy Spirit, who now dwells in us. What Apostle Paul meant is, we should not be united with a prostitute through our physical body when we have already united with God with the Holy Spirit living in our physical body, which has become a temple of God. Note that "bodies" is plural here:

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. (1 Corinthians 6:15-17 NASB)

Aseyesee · Sep 1, 2017

I believe that it must be taken in the light of the purpose of God that he purposed in himself; the law is spiritual, which to us is an internal truth.

Aseyesee · Sep 1, 2017

Apex said:
We are not individual temples that splits the Spirit of God apart into millions of pieces (we are one body in one Spirit with Him, 1 Corinthians 12:13).

Yet the revelation of our name is as individual as Jesus's name was ...

PeaceJoyLove · Sep 1, 2017

Apex said:
I will argue that “one flesh” in Genesis 2:24 best translates as the permanent and covenantal kinship bond between a biological man and a biological woman when they enter a marriage. I will, also, argue that this phrase does not directly reference the sexual union or the conception of children within that marriage.

The key to understanding what “one flesh” means can be found in the immediate context v. 18-23 provide. God says it is not good for the man to be alone and that He will make for him a helper. After no suitable helper is found amongst the other living creatures, God put Adam into a deep sleep and took a part from his side. This part of Adam was then used to build a biological woman. Upon seeing this woman, Adam exclaimed that she was “bone of my bones” and “flesh of my flesh”.

So, what can we conclude?

1. This one flesh status is founded in the union of a man and his complementary helper (a biological woman).

2. The idiomatic expressions “bone of my bone” and “flesh of my flesh” are both used as covenantal and kinship formulas: Genesis 29:14, Judges 9:2-3, 2 Samuel 5:1, 2 Samuel 19:13-14.

3. One flesh, if interpreted using these above formulas, indicates that marriage creates a kinship bond between the man and the woman like one has with blood relatives. They become related to each other similarly as brother and sister are. Note that such bonds are always considered permanent. This aligns with the idea behind the indissolubility of marriages.

4. It, also, indicates that such marriages carry with them analogous familial commitments. These commitments have been historically conferred through contractual agreement. Such marriage vows help ensure the proper function and durability of the family unit. This may look differently depending on the culture (e.g. agrarian vs industrial), but the goal is that each member subordinates his or her individual good to the good of the whole family.

5. The incest laws in Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20 (and possibly even Deuteronomy 24:1-4) illustrate the application of this kinship-spouse principal to the situation following divorce or death of one of the partners. Since a woman becomes in marriage a sister to her husband’s brothers, a daughter to her father-in-law, and so on, she cannot normally marry any of them should her first husband die or divorce her.

6. Since this bond is permanent it indicates that the one flesh status of these unions exists continuously throughout the life of the marriage, not just momentarily. Therefore, a momentary sexual union cannot be part of the definition of one flesh. Plus, sexual relations do not always persist throughout a marriage – due to age, injury, or anatomical dysfunction.

7. Also, this rules out procreation for being part of the definition of one flesh due to the fact that not all marriages are capable of producing children.

On a side note, this actually demonstrates how polygamy can be a legitimate expression of family. Just as someone is capable of having multiple kinship bonds with numerous extended family members (brothers, sisters, aunts, grandparents), a man is theoretically capable of having multiple “one flesh” bonds with any number of wives at the same time. For example, Jacob was one flesh with both Leah and Rachel. Plus, if the author of Genesis 2:24 was Moses, he too was a polygamist (Numbers 12:1). Surely he knew the meaning of his own words.

The translators of the New English Translation (NET) agree:

That is why a man leaves his father and mother and unites with his wife, and they become a new family.

Adam was alone in the Day when God put him into a deep slumber, wounded his side to take a woman/helper,and a serpent on the ground in the garden. A woman who prepared a feast of which he ate.

Christ was hung high and lifted up on a cross, wounded in His side for our healing. We are to become ONE, IN Christ which is a picture of "and the two shall become one" and The Bride...

Apex · Sep 1, 2017

Lily of Valleys said:
Keep in mind that there was no formal marriage ceremony for Adam and Eve, but Eve was referred to as the wife of Adam by God (Genesis 3:17), which means God considered them husband and wife.

Eve was Adam's wife even before they had sex for the first time. Genesis 2:25

According to Apostle Paul, the purpose of marriage is to avoid sexual immoralities, so yes, the biblical view of marriage cannot be separated from sex:

But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. (1 Corinthians 7:8 NASB)

But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband. The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.(1 Corinthians 7:2-5 NASB)

That is not what Paul is saying. He is not offering reasons why people should marry but instead argues why sexual relations in marriage are binding on spouses and why sexual abstinence in marriage is both impractical and inappropriate.

"Let each one have his own wife or her own husband" does not advise everyone to marry. The verb "to have" might be used in 7:12, 13, and 29 to refer to the state of being married, but that meaning does not apply here. If it did, Paul would contradict himself in 7:8-9 when he asserts that celibacy is a workable ideal for those who feel no compulsion to marry (cf. 7:38). The danger he wants to preempt is "immoralities" and he is fully aware that simply urging people to get married will not solve the problem of sexual sins.

The verb "to have" was also used as a euphemism for having sexual intercourse. The immediate context, with the reminders about what is owed in marriage, the assertion that husbands and wives have authority over one another's bodies, and the command not to deprive one another, makes clear that the phrase "let each one have his own wife or her own husband" refers to sexual relations within marriage, not getting married. Paul later discusses marriage for those who are single (7:8-10, 25-40). Here, he enjoins couples to fulfill their marital obligations to one another to avoid any danger that partners with celibacy suddenly thrust upon them might seek to satisfy their sexual urges in illicit ways.

Next, lets look at the Greek word Paul uses for "immoralities". This unusual plural (πορνείας) has been variously understood, usually as reflecting the enormity of this evil in Corinth itself and also as implying all forms of sexual misconduct. The word can certainly denote these possibilities, but in the immediately preceding paragraph it refers specifically to cases of prostitution. Since the similar phrase in 7:5, "because of your lack of self-control," speaks to those who are already married, it is arguable that because some husbands are being deprived of sexual relations (v. 5a), they are going to idol feasts specifically for the temple prostitutes to satisfy their sexual urges. That easily accounts for the plural, which under any circumstances should refer to sexual immoralities that are occurring, not that are anticipated.

Basically, do not place any additional pressures or influences on your spouse that may encourage them to seek sexual satisfactions in illicit ways. With temple prostitutes readily available in Corinth, these illicit ways were typically in the context of idol worship. To Paul, this was utterly unacceptable.

It has been the teaching throughout the scripture that each person is meant to have only one sexual partner throughout their life unless their sexual partner died, and that sexual partner should be their spouse.

“Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:4-9 NASB)

If a man comes upon a young woman, a virgin who is not betrothed, seizes her and lies with her, and they are discovered, the man who lay with her shall give the young woman’s father fifty silver shekels and she will be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her as long as he lives. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NABRE)

Why would God allow polygamy and concubinage and even regulate it within the law if it was absolutely immoral? Do you think circumstance and cultural norms can force God to make exceptions to his absolute standards?

I believe Leah and Rachel were equally Jacob's wives legally and legitimately. I do not believe he was doing something immoral. Both were "one flesh" with him. Or do you disagree?

As for Deuteronomy 22, I opened a whole thread about its companion passage in Exodus 22.

Check it out: Exodus 22:16 - Economic or purely sexual infraction?

We need to be careful in how we interpret the scripture within its context, we should not add anything to the scripture beyond what is written. Just because Apostle Paul mentioned eating sacrificed food in an idol's temple somewhere else does not mean everything he says have to be limited to idol's temple or idols or sacrificed food.

I disagree. My interpretation fits well even beyond the literary context and aligns with the historical situation in Corinth at that time. Why are you so reluctant to embrace this reality? Is it because it requires you to adopt a new sexual ethic? Change isn't bad if its done for truth.

Same with the word "body". Even though the term "body" has been used somewhere else to mean church, it doesn't mean "body" has to mean church throughout the scripture. The context is of utmost important. It is clear that the "body" in 1 Corinthians 6:15-20 is referring to the physical body of individual believers.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? (1 Corinthians 6:19 NASB)

All the true believers have the Holy Spirit dwells in them, that is what it means:

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Romans 8:9 NASB)

When we believe in Christ, we are united with God through His Holy Spirit, who now dwells in us. What Apostle Paul meant is, we should not be united with a prostitute through our physical body when we have already united with God with the Holy Spirit living in our physical body, which has become a temple of God. Note that "bodies" is plural here:

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. (1 Corinthians 6:15-17 NASB)

I disagree again. Can you show me another passage where Paul connects the Greek words μέλος (members), σῶμα (body), or Χριστός (Christ) that isn't in the context of community?

AnticipateHisComing · Sep 1, 2017

Apex said:
Do you believe that when two people have sexual intercourse they become married?

Could you answer your own question? What would be your view on recreational sex, premarital sex or even sex in a "committed relationship" outside of marriage? Do you have any scripture to support it? The problem is that you have changed the meaning of scripture meant to address a common problem, sex outside of marriage. You are left with no solid ground to establish moral behavior regarding sex.

Apex said:
Why would God allow polygamy and concubinage and even regulate it within the law if it was absolutely immoral?

There are certainly a few examples of polygamy in scripture, but it has been largely eliminated because it tends to disrupt the secondary role of marriage, the helper part of a relationship. The reason why it was tolerated early in history is for the primary command in marriage, to reproduce. Multiple wifes can reproduce a family much more quickly than only a single wife. That is why scripture teaches only men to have multiple wifes. There is no gain for a woman to have multiple husbands.

Understand the difference between a prostitue and a wife of a polygamist. The wife has one husband. The prostitute has many "husbands". One is allowed, one is strictly forbidden. Take your "contex" to dismiss God's word all you want, it means nothing if you can't discern the difference between polygamy and prostitution.

Lily's quote of Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is absolute and stands till the end of time. Understand, Jesus quoted the first command given to man in his condemnation of divorce. This law is not dismissed with some historical anecdotal conjecture. It is based on our nature, that it takes a man and woman to reproduce, and the act that causes this is sex.

Apex said:
My interpretation fits well even beyond the literary context and aligns with the historical situation in Corinth at that time. Why are you so reluctant to embrace this reality? Is it because it requires you to adopt a new sexual ethic?

What would be this new sexual ethic that you wish to be embraced? Is it one that is banned in CF? Is it one that goes agaisnt what the church has taught for thousands of years?

Lily of Valleys · Sep 2, 2017

Apex said:
Eve was Adam's wife even before they had sex for the first time. Genesis 2:25

God made Eve intended to be Adam's wife with the design of sexual union between a man and a woman with the intention for them to reproduce and multiply:

God created mankind in his image; in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. God blessed them and God said to them: Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. (Genesis 1:27-28)

Apex said:
That is not what Paul is saying. He is not offering reasons why people should marry but instead argues why sexual relations in marriage are binding on spouses and why sexual abstinence in marriage is both impractical and inappropriate.

"Let each one have his own wife or her own husband" does not advise everyone to marry. The verb "to have" might be used in 7:12, 13, and 29 to refer to the state of being married, but that meaning does not apply here. If it did, Paul would contradict himself in 7:8-9 when he asserts that celibacy is a workable ideal for those who feel no compulsion to marry (cf. 7:38). The danger he wants to preempt is "immoralities" and he is fully aware that simply urging people to get married will not solve the problem of sexual sins.

The verb "to have" was also used as a euphemism for having sexual intercourse. The immediate context, with the reminders about what is owed in marriage, the assertion that husbands and wives have authority over one another's bodies, and the command not to deprive one another, makes clear that the phrase "let each one have his own wife or her own husband" refers to sexual relations within marriage, not getting married. Paul later discusses marriage for those who are single (7:8-10, 25-40). Here, he enjoins couples to fulfill their marital obligations to one another to avoid any danger that partners with celibacy suddenly thrust upon them might seek to satisfy their sexual urges in illicit ways.

Next, lets look at the Greek word Paul uses for "immoralities". This unusual plural (πορνείας) has been variously understood, usually as reflecting the enormity of this evil in Corinth itself and also as implying all forms of sexual misconduct. The word can certainly denote these possibilities, but in the immediately preceding paragraph it refers specifically to cases of prostitution. Since the similar phrase in 7:5, "because of your lack of self-control," speaks to those who are already married, it is arguable that because some husbands are being deprived of sexual relations (v. 5a), they are going to idol feasts specifically for the temple prostitutes to satisfy their sexual urges. That easily accounts for the plural, which under any circumstances should refer to sexual immoralities that are occurring, not that are anticipated.

Basically, do not place any additional pressures or influences on your spouse that may encourage them to seek sexual satisfactions in illicit ways. With temple prostitutes readily available in Corinth, these illicit ways were typically in the context of idol worship. To Paul, this was utterly unacceptable.

No one said Paul advises everyone to marry. Apostle Paul said it is better to marry if you burn with passion and do not have self-control, which means sex is only to be allowed within marriage:

But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. (1 Corinthians 7:8 NASB)

But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband. (1 Corinthians 7:2 NASB)

Apex said:
Why would God allow polygamy and concubinage and even regulate it within the law if it was absolutely immoral? Do you think circumstance and cultural norms can force God to make exceptions to his absolute standards?

I believe Leah and Rachel were equally Jacob's wives legally and legitimately. I do not believe he was doing something immoral. Both were "one flesh" with him. Or do you disagree?

Just because human chooses to sin due to their sinful nature doesn't mean it is something God allows. Divorce is one such example. Note what Jesus said below: from the beginning it has not been this way, and in Jesus' eyes, it is still considered to be adultery.

Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?” And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?” He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:3-9)

Apex said:
I disagree. My interpretation fits well even beyond the literary context and aligns with the historical situation in Corinth at that time. Why are you so reluctant to embrace this reality? Is it because it requires you to adopt a new sexual ethic? Change isn't bad if its done for truth.

Your interpretation ignores what Apostle Paul plainly tells you but rather, relies on you putting words into Paul's mouth that Paul didn't say (i.e. adding words to the scripture).

You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. (Deuteronomy 4:2)

A correct attitude of bible interpretation is to let the scripture shape our understanding, instead of interpreting the scripture in a way that fit our view.

Apex said:
I disagree again. Can you show me another passage where Paul connects the Greek words μέλος (members), σῶμα (body), or Χριστός (Christ) that isn't in the context of community?

Understanding of scripture is not simply about assembling different words together. You need to look at the whole sentence, how that sentence fits into the paragraph, and how that paragraph fits into the chapter, etc.

You are ignoring what I said about the "bodies" being plural in 1 Corinthians 6:15. It is not one body, but individual bodies of believers.

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. (1 Corinthians 6:15-20 NASB)

Besides, it is clear that the "body" in "your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you" is referring to the body of individual believers. It is not new that apostle Paul refers "body" to the physical body of believers that Christ's spirit dwells in and urge us to keep it holy:

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Romans 8:9-11)

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. (Romans 12:1)

Apex · Sep 2, 2017

AnticipateHisComing said:
Could you answer your own question? What would be your view on recreational sex, premarital sex or even sex in a "committed relationship" outside of marriage? Do you have any scripture to support it? The problem is that you have changed the meaning of scripture meant to address a common problem, sex outside of marriage. You are left with no solid ground to establish moral behavior regarding sex.

I do not believe marriage needs to be sexually consummated to be legitimate. Marriage is established through covenant agreements, not sexual intercourse. To say otherwise would mean impotent men could not get married.

As for my position on non-marital sex, CF does not allow me to promote it. However, I can point you to a study topic: concubinage. I base my morality not on actions, but instead on (heart) intentions. I filter my intentions through the Law of Christ, which is Jesus' love command: Love God; love others.

I don't believe Christianity is a religion of rules and regulations. I believe Christianity is a faith of hope and freedom.

I am a child of the free woman, not the slave. Galatians 4:31
I put my new wine into fresh wineskins. Mark 2:22

There are certainly a few examples of polygamy in scripture, but it has been largely eliminated because it tends to disrupt the secondary role of marriage, the helper part of a relationship. The reason why it was tolerated early in history is for the primary command in marriage, to reproduce. Multiple wifes can reproduce a family much more quickly than only a single wife. That is why scripture teaches only men to have multiple wifes. There is no gain for a woman to have multiple husbands.

Above you asked for Scripture to support my position. Perhaps I should ask you to do the same with this statement. There is no place in the Scriptures where polygamy is explicitly forbidden. There is no indication God ever thought it was immoral or that it currently isn't allowed.

Understand the difference between a prostitue and a wife of a polygamist. The wife has one husband. The prostitute has many "husbands". One is allowed, one is strictly forbidden. Take your "contex" to dismiss God's word all you want, it means nothing if you can't discern the difference between polygamy and prostitution.

My "context" is not my own. It is verifiable historical fact. I'm not trying to dismiss God's word, I'm actually trying to understand it the way the original audience would have.

Lily's quote of Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is absolute and stands till the end of time. Understand, Jesus quoted the first command given to man in his condemnation of divorce. This law is not dismissed with some historical anecdotal conjecture. It is based on our nature, that it takes a man and woman to reproduce, and the act that causes this is sex.

My interpretation is not mere guesswork. It is supported by historical context. If you would like you can respond with specific objections in my thread I linked above.

What would be this new sexual ethic that you wish to be embraced? Is it one that is banned in CF? Is it one that goes agaisnt what the church has taught for thousands of years?

My Christian ethics are based on "agape" loving my neighbor.

Apex · Sep 3, 2017

Lily of Valleys said:
You are ignoring what I said about the "bodies" being plural in 1 Corinthians 6:15. It is not one body, but individual bodies of believers.

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. (1 Corinthians 6:15-20 NASB)

I never said ever instance of "body" is chapter 5 was communal. Only the ones in the context of community are.

Here is a detailed break down of the passage. I replaced Paul's metaphors and updated his language for today's readers.

----------

12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything.

13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. [The community of Christ] is not meant for [sexual idolatry], but for the Lord, and the Lord for the [community of Christ].

14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.

15 Do [you all] not know that [individual believers] are [together a community for Christ]? Shall I then take the [community for Christ] and make [it a community for idols]? Never!

16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a [temple prostitute] becomes [bonded in allegiance with her idol's community]? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”

17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

18 Flee from [sexual idolatry]. Every other sin a person commits is outside the [community of Christ], but the [sexually blasphemous] person sins against [the community of Christ].

19 Or do you not know that [the community of Christ] is a [single temple] of the Holy Spirit within [you all], whom [you all] have from God? [You all] are not your own,

20 for [you all] were bought with a price. So [worship only God] in [the Christian community].

----------

Apex · Sep 3, 2017

Hellenistic Greek culture ushered in the normalcy of monogamy for the Jews and Christians. And while the populace of the Greco-Roman era practiced a more relaxed attitude toward sexuality, when it came to marriage they were exclusively monogamous. However, they were what we call "serial" monogamists. The divorce rules were very lax and a man (and a woman) might have multiple spouses throughout their lives, but never at the same time. In fact, understanding Roman marriage and divorce practices are the only way to truly understand Paul's message about marriage and divorce in 1 Cor. 7.

This might be a fun read: Why We Think Monogamy Is Normal

Lily of Valleys · Sep 3, 2017

Apex said:
I never said ever instance of "body" is chapter 5 was communal. Only the ones in the context of community are.

Here is a detailed break down of the passage. I replaced Paul's metaphors and updated his language for today's readers.

----------

12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything.

13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. [The community of Christ] is not meant for [sexual idolatry], but for the Lord, and the Lord for the [community of Christ].

14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.

15 Do [you all] not know that [individual believers] are [together a community for Christ]? Shall I then take the [community for Christ] and make [it a community for idols]? Never!

16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a [temple prostitute] becomes [bonded in allegiance with her idol's community]? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.”

17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

18 Flee from [sexual idolatry]. Every other sin a person commits is outside the [community of Christ], but the [sexually blasphemous] person sins against [the community of Christ].

19 Or do you not know that [the community of Christ] is a [single temple] of the Holy Spirit within [you all], whom [you all] have from God? [You all] are not your own,

20 for [you all] were bought with a price. So [worship only God] in [the Christian community].

----------

I don't think you can make such assumption to automatically replace every instance of "immorality" with "sexual idolatry". Even though "immorality" (πορνεία) has been used somewhere else as a metaphor to refer to idolatry, there is no contextual clue in 1 Corinthians 6 to indicate verse 15-20 is about idolatry. The proper meaning of "immorality" (πορνεία) when not used metaphorically is "illicit sexual intercourse", as used in 1 Corinthians 5:1, the chapter just preceding 1 Corinthians 6:

It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. (1 Corinthians 5:1)

By the same token, there is no contextual clue in 1 Corinthians 6 the prostitute here is referring to temple prostitute or within the context of an idol temple, so I don't think such assumption can be made here.

On the other hand, every other mention of "one flesh" in the Bible is about two individuals, a man and a woman, never a community.

Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” (1 Corinthians 6:16)

Taking everything into account, the most sensible and straightforward interpretation without needing to modify anything in the passage, is that the "body" in 1 Corinthians 6:15-20 is referring to the physical body of individual believers of the Corinth Church, that individual members of a church should not sin against their own physical body by having illicit sexual intercourse with a prostitute, such as the person who was involved with immorality (πορνεία) by having illicit sexual intercourse with his father's wife, as mentioned in the preceding chapter (1 Corinthians 5:1), but instead glorify God in their own physical body, where the Holy Spirit dwells in each individual believer.

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. (1 Corinthians 6:15-20)

Apex · Sep 3, 2017

Lily of Valleys said:
I don't think you can make such assumption to automatically replace every instance of "immorality" with "sexual idolatry". Even though "immorality" (πορνεία) has been used somewhere else as a metaphor to refer to idolatry, there is no contextual clue in 1 Corinthians 6 to indicate verse 15-20 is about idolatry.

I'm not making them automatically. I count 4 contextual clues.

1. The mentioning of "the prostitute". The most common type of prostitution in Corinth was temple prostitutes. Blasphemous sex acts were commonplace. Are you suggesting this was a mere "secular" prostitute? Throughout Scripture we see cult prostitution and blasphemous sex linked with idol worship and condemned as disloyal to God.

Exodus 34:14-16
For you will not bow in worship to another god, for ‘Yahweh Is Jealous’ is his name, he is a jealous God, 15 lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they prostitute themselves after their gods, and they sacrifice to their gods, and they invite you, and you eat their sacrifice, 16 and you take from their daughters for your sons, and their daughters prostitute themselves after their gods, and they cause your sons to prostitute themselves after their gods.

Deuteronomy 23:17-18
No woman of Israel shall be a temple prostitute, and no man of Israel shall be a male shrine prostitute. 18 You may not bring the hire of a prostitute or the earnings of a male prostitute into the house of Yahweh your God, for any vow offerings, because both are a detestable thing to Yahweh your God.

Numbers 25:1
When Israel dwelled in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim, the people began to prostitute themselves with the daughters of Moab. And they invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and worshiped their gods.

Judges 2:17
Yet they did not listen to their judges, for they whored after other gods and bowed down to them.

1 Kings 14:24
For they also built for themselves high places and pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree, and there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations that the LORD drove out before the people of Israel.

2 Kings 23:7
And he broke down the houses of the male cult prostitutes who were in the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the Asherah.

Amos 2:7-8
A man and his father go in to the same girl, so that my holy name is profaned; they lay themselves down beside every altar on garments taken in pledge, and in the house of their God they drink the wine of those who have been fined.

2. The temple imagery 6:19-20 is highly suggestive. Paul is contrasting God's temple with idol temples. He is saying, "Don't go to idol temples, you are God's temple!"

3. There is a literary link between "inappropriate contenteia" and idolatry in 10:7-8. But don't take my word for it:

"Paul exhorts the Corinthians not to be idolators and then quotes directly from Exod. 32:6, the story of the golden calf (v. 7). He uses this text for its special relevance, in particular its allusion to sexual play or amusement after the idol feast. This is why the warning against sexual sin immediately follows in v. 8. Paul believes that more is going on in the pagan temple than just feasting...there certainly were numerous stories of sexual immorality in pagan temples. Josephus Ant. 18.65–80, for example, tells of the lady Paulina engaging in sex all night long after dinner in the temple precincts with Mundus, assuming he was the god Anubis. This common association in the larger culture would explain why sexual immorality and idol food are also always linked in the NT (cf. Acts 15:29; Rev. 2:14, 20). It is worth adding that the rabbis certainly interpreted “play” in Exodus 32:6 to refer to sexual play (cf. Babylonian Talmud Soṭa 6b)."

Ben Witherington III, Conflict and Community in Corinth: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary on 1 and 2 Corinthians (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1995), 221–222.

4. The conclusion in v.20 to "glorify God". I have linked glorifying God in the context of idolatry in Paul's later use in 1 Corinthians 10:31.

See here: Whatever you do, do all to the glory of God

The proper meaning of "immorality" (πορνεία) when not used metaphorically is "illicit sexual intercourse", as used in 1 Corinthians 5:1, the chapter just preceding 1 Corinthians 6:

It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. (1 Corinthians 5:1)

By the same token, there is no contextual clue in 1 Corinthians 6 the prostitute here is referring to temple prostitute or within the context of an idol temple, so I don't think such assumption can be made here.

As shown above, I think there is stronger contextual evidence to suggest "inappropriate contenteia" in chapter 6 is more closely linked to future chapters about idol worship and not to incest in chapter 5. Also, the link between idolatry and "inappropriate contenteia" which is found in the OT is strengthened in early Jewish teaching. Both idolatry and sexual immorality are associated with demons. Several texts in the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, CD and 1QS associate "inappropriate contenteia" with demons and the identification of pagan deities with demons was also a common Jewish and Christian theme. Sexual immorality in such texts is surrounded by demonic dangers and threats as in CD 4:15-17 where the 3 nets of Belial include fornication, wealth, and the defilement of the temple. We should recall that Paul puts demons and pagan worship together in 1 Cor. 10 and juxtaposes sexual impurity and idolatry in Romans 1:24-25.

I'll get to the rest of your post in a little bit.

Apex · Sep 3, 2017

Lily of Valleys said:
On the other hand, every other mention of "one flesh" in the Bible is about two individuals, a man and a woman, never a community.

Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” (1 Corinthians 6:16)

Let's not forget the very next verse:

But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

The Greek word for "join" is the same for both how we unite with God and the prostitute. Obviously more than just sex is in context. Plus, Paul is using communal language here.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13
For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

This is painfully similar to the language used in 1 Corinthians 6:15-17! I'm not sure how you can deny it.

If we apply my definition of "one flesh" (a covenantal kinship bond) to this situation, it makes perfect sense. We violate our covenant bond (or "one flesh") relationship with God when we allow our allegiances to be crossed with the worship of another deity. We can only be covenantal members of "one body" (in "one Spirit") - the body of Christ. The marriage covenant is being used as an analogy here and it works fantastically.

Taking everything into account, the most sensible and straightforward interpretation without needing to modify anything in the passage, is that the "body" in 1 Corinthians 6:15-20 is referring to the physical body of individual believers of the Corinth Church,

Let me ask you a question: What do you think this phrase means "members of a prostitute"?

Lily of Valleys · Sep 4, 2017

Apex said:
I'm not making them automatically. I count 4 contextual clues.

1. The mentioning of "the prostitute". The most common type of prostitution in Corinth was temple prostitutes. Blasphemous sex acts were commonplace. Are you suggesting this was a mere "secular" prostitute? Throughout Scripture we see cult prostitution and blasphemous sex linked with idol worship and condemned as disloyal to God.

Exodus 34:14-16
For you will not bow in worship to another god, for ‘Yahweh Is Jealous’ is his name, he is a jealous God, 15 lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they prostitute themselves after their gods, and they sacrifice to their gods, and they invite you, and you eat their sacrifice, 16 and you take from their daughters for your sons, and their daughters prostitute themselves after their gods, and they cause your sons to prostitute themselves after their gods.

Deuteronomy 23:17-18
No woman of Israel shall be a temple prostitute, and no man of Israel shall be a male shrine prostitute. 18 You may not bring the hire of a prostitute or the earnings of a male prostitute into the house of Yahweh your God, for any vow offerings, because both are a detestable thing to Yahweh your God.

Numbers 25:1
When Israel dwelled in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim, the people began to prostitute themselves with the daughters of Moab. And they invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and worshiped their gods.

Judges 2:17
Yet they did not listen to their judges, for they whored after other gods and bowed down to them.

1 Kings 14:24
For they also built for themselves high places and pillars and Asherim on every high hill and under every green tree, and there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations that the LORD drove out before the people of Israel.

2 Kings 23:7
And he broke down the houses of the male cult prostitutes who were in the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the Asherah.

Amos 2:7-8
A man and his father go in to the same girl, so that my holy name is profaned; they lay themselves down beside every altar on garments taken in pledge, and in the house of their God they drink the wine of those who have been fined.

As I said in one of my previous posts, the majority of the Bible translations translated it as "a" prostitute, not "the" prostitute: 1 Corinthians 6:15 - Bible Gateway

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” (1 Corinthians 6:15-16 NASB)

Keep in mind that almost all prostitutes were unbelievers and had their own gods regardless of whether they were temple prostitutes or not. Even if the most common type of prostitution in Corinth was temple prostitutes, there was no mention of idoltary or temple prostitutes in 1 Corinthians 6 at all, so apostle Paul was not specifically referring to only prostitutes in the context of idoltary in 1 Corinthians 6:15-16 when he said "joining himself to a prostitute is one body with her", which means, any believer that joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her, regardless whether it is a temple prostitute or non-temple prostitute.

Apex said:
2. The temple imagery 6:19-20 is highly suggestive. Paul is contrasting God's temple with idol temples. He is saying, "Don't go to idol temples, you are God's temple!"

If you read v19 in the context of v15-20, that's not what Paul meant. There is no mention of idol temples at all in 1 Corinthians 6. Paul was saying we shouldn't sin against our own physical body by engaging in immorality (i.e. illicit sexual intercourse) with prostitute (v15,16,18) since our body is where the Holy Spirit lives. Temple of the Holy Spirit is referring to our physical body. (v19)

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. (1 Corinthians 6:15-20)

Apex said:
3. There is a literary link between "inappropriate contenteia" and idolatry in 10:7-8. But don't take my word for it:

"Paul exhorts the Corinthians not to be idolators and then quotes directly from Exod. 32:6, the story of the golden calf (v. 7). He uses this text for its special relevance, in particular its allusion to sexual play or amusement after the idol feast. This is why the warning against sexual sin immediately follows in v. 8. Paul believes that more is going on in the pagan temple than just feasting...there certainly were numerous stories of sexual immorality in pagan temples. Josephus Ant. 18.65–80, for example, tells of the lady Paulina engaging in sex all night long after dinner in the temple precincts with Mundus, assuming he was the god Anubis. This common association in the larger culture would explain why sexual immorality and idol food are also always linked in the NT (cf. Acts 15:29; Rev. 2:14, 20). It is worth adding that the rabbis certainly interpreted “play” in Exodus 32:6 to refer to sexual play (cf. Babylonian Talmud Soṭa 6b)."

Ben Witherington III, Conflict and Community in Corinth: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary on 1 and 2 Corinthians (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1995), 221–222.

It is clear that Apostle Paul was talking about fleeing from idoltary in 1 Corinthians 10:7, 9, but 1 Corinthians 6:15-20 is about fleeing from sexual immorality, not about idolatry. Note that even in 1 Corinthians 10:7-8, Apostle Paul had separated idolatry from acting immorally, which means you can act immorally without participating in idoltary:

Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. (1 Corinthians 10:7-8)

Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. (1 Corinthians 10:9)

Flee immorality. (1 Corinthians 6:18)

Apex said:
4. The conclusion in v.20 to "glorify God". I have linked glorifying God in the context of idolatry in Paul's later use in 1 Corinthians 10:31.

See here: Whatever you do, do all to the glory of God

Glorifying God does not have to have anything to do with idoltary:

Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)

Apex said:
Let's not forget the very next verse:

But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

The Greek word for "join" is the same for both how we unite with God and the prostitute. Obviously more than just sex is in context. Plus, Paul is using communal language here.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13
For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

This is painfully similar to the language used in 1 Corinthians 6:15-17! I'm not sure how you can deny it.

If we apply my definition of "one flesh" (a covenantal kinship bond) to this situation, it makes perfect sense. We violate our covenant bond (or "one flesh") relationship with God when we allow our allegiances to be crossed with the worship of another deity. We can only be covenantal members of "one body" (in "one Spirit") - the body of Christ. The marriage covenant is being used as an analogy here and it works fantastically.

Let me ask you a question: What do you think this phrase means "members of a prostitute"?

Keep in mind that "members" μέλος mean parts of the human body. 1 Corinthians 12 is about different spiritual gifts being distributed to different individuals of the church, which Apostle Paul used human body and its different parts (members) as a metaphor to refer to the church and the believers. In 1 Corinthians 6:15-20, Apostle Paul was again referring to the human body and its different parts (members), but this time not as a metaphor, but the literal meaning of body and members (μέλος) of the believers in the Corinth Church.

Unlike 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Corinthians 6:17 is clearly about an individual being joined to God, not a group of believers being joined together into one church:

But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. (1 Corinthians 6:17)

What 1 Corinthians 6:15-17 means is, believers have already joined with Christ (v17) and being parts of Christ (v15), with the Holy Spirit in us (v19), therefore should not join with a prostitute in our bodies (v15, 16) to make them parts of a prostitute (v15) through illict sexual intercourse (i.e. immorality πορνεία) (v18)

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. (1 Corinthians 6:15-17)

Apex · Sep 4, 2017

Lily of Valleys said:
As I said in one of my previous posts, the majority of the Bible translations translated it as "a" prostitute, not "the" prostitute: 1 Corinthians 6:15 - Bible Gateway

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” (1 Corinthians 6:15-16 NASB)

You trust an English translation over the original Greek? I always double check.

This is what it says in the Greek: τῇ πόρνῃ

τῇ is an article and is the dative, feminine, singular form of the Greek lemma ὁ.

Screen Shot 2017-09-04 at 12.43.28 PM.png

Paul had in mind either a specific prostitute, which is why some commentators think he might be referencing the god Aphrodite—who was known as the patron of prostitutes. Or Paul had in mind a specific type of prostitute.

"And the temple of Aphrodite was so rich that it owned more than a thousand temple slaves, prostitutes, whom both men and women had dedicated to the goddess. And therefore it was also on account of these women that the city was crowded with people and grew rich; for instance, the ship captains freely squandered their money, and hence the proverb, 'Not for every man is the voyage to Corinth'."

Strabo, Geographica, 23AD

Keep in mind that almost all prostitutes were unbelievers and had their own gods regardless of whether they were temple prostitutes or not. Even if the most common type of prostitution in Corinth was temple prostitutes, there was no mention of idoltary or temple prostitutes in 1 Corinthians 6 at all, so apostle Paul was not specifically referring to only prostitutes in the context of idoltary in 1 Corinthians 6:15-16 when he said "joining himself to a prostitute is one body with her", which means, any believer that joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her, regardless whether it is a temple prostitute or non-temple prostitute.

I disagree. You keep repeating your position, but I haven't seen you post a real argument yet. If idolatry was not in play, why would Paul contrast this union with the union a believer has with the Lord? We don't have sex with God. We worship him.

If you read v19 in the context of v15-20, that's not what Paul meant. There is no mention of idol temples at all in 1 Corinthians 6. Paul was saying we shouldn't sin against our own physical body by engaging in immorality (i.e. illicit sexual intercourse) with prostitute (v15,16,18) since our body is where the Holy Spirit lives. Temple of the Holy Spirit is referring to our physical body. (v19)

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. (1 Corinthians 6:15-20)

The temple is NOT our individual bodies. The communal body is.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you [plural] are God’s temple [singular] and that God’s Spirit dwells in you [plural]? If anyone destroys God’s temple [singular], God will destroy him. For God’s temple [singular] is holy, and you [plural] are that temple [singular].

The chapter divisions were not in Paul's original writing. It would be foolish to limit his argument to chapter divisions. A large part of his letter is about activity that happens in idol temples. The historical context is set in a city that had numerous idol temples. My position is actually the one with more contextual support.

It is clear that Apostle Paul was talking about fleeing from idoltary in 1 Corinthians 10:7, 9, but 1 Corinthians 6:15-20 is about fleeing from sexual immorality, not about idolatry. Note that even in 1 Corinthians 10:7-8, Apostle Paul had separated idolatry from acting immorally, which means you can act immorally without participating in idoltary:

Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. (1 Corinthians 10:7-8)

Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. (1 Corinthians 10:9)

Flee immorality. (1 Corinthians 6:18)

You even admitted earlier that "inappropriate contenteia" in certain contexts has a lexical connotation of idolatry. Therefore, it is lexically possible that Paul is talking about idolatry in both senses. He has different types in mind though.

Glorifying God does not have to have anything to do with idoltary:

Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:16)

It deals with worship. If you are eating, drinking, or even having sex in a idol's temple, you are glorifying that idol. God alone deserves to be glorified. Did you even read the OP in the thread I linked?

Keep in mind that "members" μέλος mean parts of the human body. 1 Corinthians 12 is about different spiritual gifts being distributed to different individuals of the church, which Apostle Paul used human body and its different parts (members) as a metaphor to refer to the church and the believers. In 1 Corinthians 6:15-20, Apostle Paul was again referring to the human body and its different parts (members), but this time not as a metaphor, but the literal meaning of body and members (μέλος) of the believers in the Corinth Church.

So, you think members means penises in 1 Corinthians 6?

Unlike 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Corinthians 6:17 is clearly about an individual being joined to God, not a group of believers being joined together into one church:

But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. (1 Corinthians 6:17)

What 1 Corinthians 6:15-17 means is, believers have already joined with Christ (v17) and being parts of Christ (v15), with the Holy Spirit in us (v19), therefore should not join with a prostitute in our bodies (v15, 16) to make them parts of a prostitute (v15) through illict sexual intercourse (i.e. immorality πορνεία) (v18)

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. (1 Corinthians 6:15-17)

The only way this interpretation works is if the joining was of the same kind. This goes beyond sex. Again, we are not having sex with God here. The joining is ultimately of allegiance. Which is what "one flesh" means. Yes, sex is occurring with the prostitutes, but it is the idolatrous context that makes it immoral.

Lily of Valleys · Sep 5, 2017

Apex said:
You trust an English translation over the original Greek? I always double check.

This is what it says in the Greek: τῇ πόρνῃ

τῇ is an article and is the dative, feminine, singular form of the Greek lemma ὁ.

View attachment 207154

Paul had in mind either a specific prostitute, which is why some commentators think he might be referencing the god Aphrodite—who was known as the patron of prostitutes. Or Paul had in mind a specific type of prostitute.

"And the temple of Aphrodite was so rich that it owned more than a thousand temple slaves, prostitutes, whom both men and women had dedicated to the goddess. And therefore it was also on account of these women that the city was crowded with people and grew rich; for instance, the ship captains freely squandered their money, and hence the proverb, 'Not for every man is the voyage to Corinth'."

Strabo, Geographica, 23AD

It is no accident over 50 Bible translations translated it as "a" prostitute. "prostitute" appears both in verse 15 and verse 16. There is no τῇ before πόρνης in verse 15, so the τῇ πόρνῃ in verse 16 is referring to the "prostitute" mentioned in verse 15, which the majority of Bible translations translated as "a prostitute".

6:15 οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι τὰ σώματα ὑμῶν μέλη Χριστοῦ ἐστιν ἄρας οὖν τὰ μέλη τοῦ Χριστοῦ ποιήσω πόρνης μέλη μὴ γένοιτο

6:16 ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ὁ κολλώμενος τῇ πόρνῃ ἓν σῶμά ἐστιν ἔσονται γάρ φησίν οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.” (1 Corinthians 6:15-16 NASB)

An overwhelming majority of Bible commentaries agree that Paul was referring to "physical" body in 1 Corinthians 6:15, not community:

Paul's use of "body" in this passage makes it certain that the physical body is meant.

Our physical bodies are just as much a part of Christ-united with Him in a genuine spiritual union-as we are part of the mystical body of Christ, the church. However, Paul was not speaking here of the believer"s union with Christ by becoming a member of His mystical body, the church ( 1 Corinthians 12:12-26). He was metaphorically speaking of our individual union with Christ"s physical body.

1 Corinthians 6:15 - Do you not... - Verse-by-Verse Commentary

Apex said:
I disagree. You keep repeating your position, but I haven't seen you post a real argument yet. If idolatry was not in play, why would Paul contrast this union with the union a believer has with the Lord? We don't have sex with God. We worship him.

Apostle Paul always made it clear in his letters what he was referring to within the context of the passage. If it was about idolatry, he would make it clear that it was about idolatry. If it was about idol's temple, he would make it clear that it was about idol's temple. If it was about food in the idol's temple, he would make it clear that it was about food in the idol's temple. That is Apostle Paul's writing style. In 1 Corinthians 6:15-20, it is clear that Paul's warning is against immorality (πορνεία), not idolatry:

Flee immorality. (1 Corinthians 6:18)

As for your question, please refer to what I quoted above from the Bible commentary.

Apex said:
So, you think members means penises in 1 Corinthians 6?

Not in particular. I have addressed this in my previous post here:

Lily of Valleys said:
What 1 Corinthians 6:15-17 means is, believers have already joined with Christ (v17) and being parts of Christ (v15), with the Holy Spirit in us (v19), therefore should not join with a prostitute in our bodies (v15, 16) to make them parts of a prostitute (v15) through illict sexual intercourse (i.e. immorality πορνεία) (v18)

Apex said:
The only way this interpretation works is if the joining was of the same kind. This goes beyond sex. Again, we are not having sex with God here. The joining is ultimately of allegiance. Which is what "one flesh" means. Yes, sex is occurring with the prostitutes, but it is the idolatrous context that makes it immoral.

I explained above that Paul's warning in 1 Corinthians 6:15-20 is against immorality (πορνεία), not idolatry, and it is not the only time Paul separated sexual immorality from idolatry:

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:20-21)

Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. (1 Corinthians 10:7-8)

Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. (1 Corinthians 10:9)

Flee immorality. (1 Corinthians 6:18)

One flesh = a kinship bond, nothing to do with sex or children

Radical Centrist & Ethicist

Radical Centrist & Ethicist

Well-Known Member

Radical Centrist & Ethicist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Radical Centrist & Ethicist

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Radical Centrist & Ethicist

Radical Centrist & Ethicist

Radical Centrist & Ethicist

Well-Known Member

Radical Centrist & Ethicist

Radical Centrist & Ethicist

Well-Known Member

Radical Centrist & Ethicist

Well-Known Member

Similar threads