Why Believe in Perpetual Virginity?

Light of the East

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With that being said, your missed "slam dunk" was rebounded, taken the length of the court, and was drilled as a three pointer...... nothing but net!

Kindly said, as a fellow who shares in the Apostolic Faith....it would be a three-pointer had Rome not added things to the Apostolic Faith and made it heterodox. There is no basis for:

1. The filioque clause.
2. The Immaculate Conception
3. Papal Infallibility
4. Indulgences
5. Purgatory
6. Numerous other ecclesiastical practices which do not accord with the original faith of the Fathers.

You may find them here https://www.svots.edu/content/roman-presidency-and-christian-unity-our-time
 
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celticpiping

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"The Catholic Church’s teaching on papal infallibility is one which is generally misunderstood by those outside the Church. In particular, Fundamentalists and other "Bible Christians" often confuse the charism of papal "infallibility" with "impeccability.""

"bible Christians"
oh that's so cute...

You perhaps ought to review your own denominations teachings, because sadly, you're 100% wrong on ex cathedra...
it's firmly established in your own Catholic doctrines..

Most of your stated theology is completely extra-extra-biblical, and outside of that which was demonstrated for us by Christ Himself, and His apostles.
But you keep on keepin on sir...

How about we agree to disagree?
I suggest we call it a truce, and each go his own way.
 
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Light of the East

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"..by devaluing and ignoring the authority.."
absolutely astounding how an entire religion was founded on 1 verse about a rock...

Christ is all in all.
Christ is the head of His church: now, and always.


Your statement here is pretty much the foundation of all Protestantism. In it, you ignore the fact that Christ gave authority to the Apostles to rule the Church for the good of all, not as dictators, but in love.

But I will let a Protestant speak here, for despite his Protestant blindness to the truth of what he says, he speaks the truth:

The representative hierarchy renders judgments (Deut. 1:9-18). We can even go so far as to say that it mediates the covenant. By rendering its decisions, the Bible is applied in a practical way to God's people. Life is mediated to them through Judgment. We should understand, however, that this mediation takes place on two levels. There is mediation with a capital M, and there is lower case mediation that grows out of this. The first is redemption, "messianic"; it brings salvation. Moses and all the redemptive deliverers of the Bible (judges, prophets, priests, David, Solomon, etc.) mediated life to Israel with a capital M. The ultimate Mediator, however, is Jesus. Yet in Deuteronomy, there are also lower case mediators who administrate the covenant. They serve a judicial purpose, and fall into two categories. In one sense, the whole body of believers, general mediators of the covenant, is a representative of God (Exod. 19:6). So everyone in the covenant community can go directly to Him. But God appoints special overseers, like the ones in Deuteronomy 1:9-18. They have a special anointing to render judgment. This is how God manifests His transcendence. He has Mediators who bring the message of salvation, and they in turn have representatives, general and special, who rule under them. This creates God's visible sovereignty on the earth, making submission or accountability extremely important.


(I find his statement in red sadly ironic in that he as a Protestant is not submitted to the authority which Christ gave to the bishops of the Church through the Apostles. This is what I mean when I say that this man is "blind to what he wrote.")

Notice the progression from transcendence to hierarchy in this passage. Christ is raised and seated in heaven, and then His authority is planted on earth. The Lord declares Christ's transcendence, and then establishes Christ's visible sovereignty through the rule of His people as His authority. There is no escape from the principle of man's God-given mediatory authority. If God's authorities do not rule, neither does He, in the sense of a public manifestation of authority. He manifests visible sovereignty through the visible authority of those who are in visible covenant to Him.

Again, this is the whole point. Christ established his visible authority by giving His authority to the Apostles. To disobey them was to shake your fist in His face, not theirs. The same example can be found with Moses. Dathan and Abihu found out the hard way that Moses was not just a mere man. He stood for God, and to oppose him was to oppose God. Not good form, as they found out while sinking into the ground that had opened up underneath them.


"If you are not a member of the Church, then your words here are pretty much fluff and air."
I attend a church
, yes

I didn't say "a" church. I said, "THE" Church, as in the one that our Lord established. He only established one Church, with the Apostles as the overseers of that congregation.

I've heard covenant theology from a 'reformed' fellow, and it sounded just as much of a rech as this does, in trying to establish some new doctrine..

The word "covenant" appears over 300 times in the Sacred Scriptures. Jesus said "This is the New Covenant in my Blood." To an intelligent person, the appearance of a continuous theme in a writing would be a red flag to not only take note of that theme, but to delve deeply into it to understand it.
 
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Light of the East

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How about we agree to disagree?
I suggest we call it a truce, and each go his own way.

In other words, you don't wish to actually learn anything, you are looking for some sap of a Catholic who doesn't know his faith and is easy pickin's for conversion.

And I have every right to say this inasmuch as I was a hard-head just like you 18 years ago, a Protestant myself who thought I knew everything about the Bible and the Christian religion. Wouldn't listen to anyone. Then I ran into some very well-catechized Catholics who showed me just how wrong I was.

1. I didn't know Church history. For me, Christianity started in 1517.

2. I didn't know ANY of the Church Fathers, such as St. Iranaeus or St. Ignatius. Yet these were the very men who defended Christian orthodoxy against pagans and heretics so that I could believe rightly in Christ.

3. I didn't know what they wrote.

4. I didn't know that the Protestant Reformers twisted the Greek in the Scriptures to suit their purposes, being completely dishonest with certain passages and even removing books from the Bible that didn't suit their tastes.

5. I didn't know the Covenant of God, the most mentioned of events in the Scripture and the basis of much of the worship in the OT and NT.

In short, I didn't know Jack about anything, yet I fancied myself a great theologian to whom all should listen.

I see myself in you.

Have a nice day.
 
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Sine Nomine

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So then it is logically inescapable that The Protestant has NO infallible truth!

This is VERY far from Luther & Calvin who asserted their personal interpretations as infallible. But of course they still thought they were reforming THE Church , not creating a free-for-all.
But they had sown theseed with their "sola scriptura"....... which results in today's American plethora of Protestantism, loosely presiding over "Me, Jesus & my Bible". And everyone is their own pope.
This is a gazillion miles from The Church in Acts, or The Church as "Israel-fulfilled"!
And it has no Apostolic connection to the "mustard-seed-Church (Jesus founded on Peter) that becomes the largest of plants"
There is no "city on a hill," no "Being one that the world will know"

On the contrary scripture does not purport to be a manual on how to run a thing called "The Church". But that is how the Protestant innovators always see it: They despise the Catholic oak-tree; they want to go create a facsimilie-acorn.....rejecting the acorn Christ planted!
Acts shows The Apostles exerting authority, insisting on unity, creating successors....."and just getting on with it". As leaders of The post-messianic-Israel their assumptions were Jewish including that Jews has Torah (Word) & Mishna/Talmud (Tradition). These things, were only explained as challenges arose.
The protestant dilema is that they pick up a compilation made originally by the Catholic Church, they invent "sola scriptura" (which isn't in scripture!) but it just cannot work......Because without infallible interpretation (As well as infallible compilation of The canon) you have no truth.
But Jesus promised "to lead His Church into all truth" (including dogmas about His Mother).
Sola Scriptura is contradicted by scripture, but it serves as a ring-fence to those who refuse to be subject to authority. But it is a ring-fence into a corner of unresolvable debate.

Some documentable support for you position that the Reformers believed their interpretation to be infallible would be helpful. Semper reformanda (always reforming) is frequently overlooked. Also, where does Scripture contradict Sola Scriptura?

An infallible understanding/interpretation is NOT required to possess an infallible truth. Something can be perfectly true without you (or anyone) understanding it properly or fully. One can also be led in to all truth without being the holder or the arbiter of that truth. This is particularly true if Truth is not a "fact", but rather a Person. I assume that you believe that you have been led into Christ, if so, you have been led into all truth. A great high priest that knows my weakness and can intercede on my behalf is more important than a priest ordained in apostolic succession. But that is not the point of the OP.
 
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Alithis

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Mary "was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit" (Luke 1:35). The same wording was used for the Shekinah that overshadowed The Ark of The Covenant.

(1) And Mary "conceived of the Holy Spirit".
Does the Holy Spirit do One-night-stands?
Does The Holy Spirit do divorce?
IMPOSSIBLE! Mary is The Bride of The Holy Spirit (Joseph is her protector)

(2)In this moment of conception Mary became The Ark of The New & Eternal Covenant.
Now think about this.........
What 3 objects were in The Ark of The Old Covenant?
(a)The Word of God on the stone tablets;
(b)Manna
&(c) Aaron's priestly Rod.
These three inanimate objects made the Ark was so holy that Uzzah was struck dead for touching it.

By the power of the Holy Spirit, and with Mary's consent, Mary gave living flesh to these three things in one person....Jesus, who is (a)The Word (b) The bread of Life & (c) The High Priest
So Mary is plainly The Living Ark of The New Covenant containing and giving her flesh to, The Living Word and The Living Bread of Heaven (Jesus) & The High priest.

Now, if you were Joseph, what would you do? Seriously?

The trouble is that, despite Mary's prophecy, in Luke "That henceforth all generations shall call me blessed" Protestants drifted from this (Not Luther or Calvin incidentally).
They just don't really think about Mary & Typology (Look it up in google or you-tube).
If The Old Ark was holy & venerated The New Ark of Christ is much holier & much more to be venerated.
I see everywhere on the internet Protestants wondering why/how "The Ark" is in Heaven with God in Revelations???.....It's Mary.! It's so obvious!
That's what the Catholic/Orthodox doctrine of the Assumption is about.

Sceptical?
Just read Revelations without the added chapter divisions. What does the verse immediately before the sign of the queen appearing in heaven say?......."Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm."

Take the scales of hatred of Mary (or Catholicism) from your eyes.
Because of the Astronomical configuration just arising, many Protestants are on the internet talking about Rev 12......as though that chaptering was in the original. Nobody reads the introductory verse 11:19 about God's Ark, sees a queen in heaven, and comes up with Mary! And they say they love scripture!
Mary/Ark/Davidic-King's MOTHER was HIS QUEEN.
Oh and The Mother-Queen of The Davidic Kings was "Gebirah" Intercessor with her Son-king for the people. And he refused her nothing. Then look at Cana.
This utter tripe just lowered the holy spirit to the base level of a beast.

When God spoke and by his word the heavens and the earth were created..did he have sex with it to make it be? This is how disgustingly base a concept you introduce .
God spoke and by his power (authority ) his word became flesh in the womb of Mary. ( why mary? Because she was of the tribe of Judah betrothed to Joseph of the line of david. No other reason ..if Jenny jane or karen we betrothed to joseph.they would have been chosen.)

On top of that the Lord tells Joseph don't be afraid to take her as your wife...by your ridiculous reasoning you just called God a fornicator .utter carnal reasoning.
Based upon nothing scriptural.
 
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Sammy-San

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The m word?????

I won't repeat it, its profanity that also has the f word in it.

The question I asked is about reconciling recognizing how putrid and wrong foul language is with the concept that what certain theologians said wasn't bibical.
 
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Archivist

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I won't repeat it, its profanity that also has the f word in it.

I didn't ask you to repeat it, but there are a number of m curse words including one that references a homosexual act. I wasn't sure what you were referencing.

The question I asked is about reconciling recognizing how putrid and wrong foul language is with the concept that what certain theologians said wasn't Biblical.

Of course the meaning of words changes over time. The f word that describes a sexual act was once a fairly common term.
 
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Sammy-San

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I didn't ask you to repeat it, but there are a number of m curse words including one that references a homosexual act. I wasn't sure what you were referencing.



Of course the meaning of words changes over time. The f word that describes a sexual act was once a fairly common term.

The one where people say "mother". I don't think it has the same meaning it did in the past.

The question I asked is about reconciling recognizing how foul and wrong that language is (there is no question of that) with the opinion that doesn't agree with the theologians views on sexuality.
 
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thecolorsblend

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I'm gonna slam-dunk this whole debate.
ready?

When the RCC places "church tradition" on equal footing with the scriptures, there is no longer ANY solid basis on which to debate.


</debate>
If it wasn't for tradition, you wouldn't know that the volume you call "The Bible" is sacred scripture.
 
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Phil 1:21

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wilts43,
re: "Sola Scriptura is contradicted by scripture, but it serves as a ring-fence to those who refuse to be subject to authority."



The trick, however, is determining who, if anyone, has the authority.

BTW, you have a question directed to you in post #355.

To me it's very simple: God has the authority. We are to serve Him and Him alone. Unfortunately, it didn't take long before some folks chose to put themselves above God and demand people serve men in robes instead of God in heaven.
 
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Light of the East

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To me it's very simple: God has the authority. We are to serve Him and Him alone. Unfortunately, it didn't take long before some folks chose to put themselves above God and demand people serve men in robes instead of God in heaven.

Did you even bother reading my post on authority (Number 363). If there is no visible authority on earth, then God has no authority on earth. He establishes His authority on earth in human beings, beginning with Adam, who was given dominion (authority) over Creation. Adam forfeited that by his sin, Satan stole it from Adam, and Christ Jesus has defeated Satan and taken the authority back. So once again we have a human being, the Man, Jesus the Christ, who is representative authority of God.

He in turn granted that authority to His Apostles (John 20:23) before He left this earth and was no longer visible to men. When He returns in glory, all human authority will bow before Him - the King of kings - and will return the authority they have been given and the Scriptures say that God will be "all in all."
 
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Phil 1:21

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Did you even bother reading my post on authority (Number 363). If there is no visible authority on earth, then God has no authority on earth. He establishes His authority on earth in human beings, beginning with Adam, who was given dominion (authority) over Creation. Adam forfeited that by his sin, Satan stole it from Adam, and Christ Jesus has defeated Satan and taken the authority back. So once again we have a human being, the Man, Jesus the Christ, who is representative authority of God.

He in turn granted that authority to His Apostles (John 20:23) before He left this earth and was no longer visible to men. When He returns in glory, all human authority will bow before Him - the King of kings - and will return the authority they have been given and the Scriptures say that God will be "all in all."

I was raised in the RCC so I've heard it all before. We answer to God, not misguided men in robes who claim to speak for Him.
 
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thecolorsblend

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I was raised in the RCC so I've heard it all before. We answer to God, not misguided men in robes who claim to speak for Him.
If Our Lord didn't intend to grant authority to men... um, why did He say He was granting authority to men?
 
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Light of the East

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If Our Lord didn't intend to grant authority to men... um, why did He say He was granting authority to men?

Don't ask him factual questions, you might fry his brain cells.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Light of the East

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I was raised in the RCC so I've heard it all before. We answer to God, not misguided men in robes who claim to speak for Him.

So you were raised in the Roman Church.

Big freakin' deal!

That does not mean that you actually learned the faith catholic. You were probably like some of the kids I teach in my CCD class, bored silly, uninterested, only there because your folks had hope you would grow in the faith. Really sad to watch.

And then some Bible-thumper with a misinterpretation of the Bible came along and deceived you into his heresy and now you fancy yourself the king of Bible apologists.

Just so you know - I was a Bible-thumper for 25 years, and a very anti-Catholic one, just like you. I knew it all, and I knew that I knew it all - until I actually began to read and study what the Christian faith of the first century was as expressed by those who preached it to the world - the Early Fathers of the Church. When I saw what they were teaching - that which they learned directly from the Apostles - I recognized that they were distinctly not Protestant.

Now I had been taught that the "true Christian faith" had been corrupted when Emperor Constantine made Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire. Yet here are men who 200 years before Constantine were preaching the reality of

1. The Eucharist as the very Body and Blood of Christ.

2. Baptism saves and gives new life.

3. The priesthoods

4. The authority of the bishops of the Church.

5. The Virgin Mary as the New Eve.

There was no way I was staying Protestant after I realized these things. May God open your eyes to see exactly what it is that you walked away from.
 
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Light of the East

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What was the significance of the temple curtain being torn?

Wonderful Chirst-like behavior there. :oldthumbsup:

And the same to you. Go back and read your smarmy response to us as Catholics. You want respect -- EARN IT!!!
 
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Phil 1:21

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You were probably like some of the kids I teach in my CCD class, bored silly, uninterested, only there because your folks had hope you would grow in the faith. Really sad to watch.

Perhaps the problem is the teacher, not the students. Honestly, brother, your witness leaves a lot to be desired. I can only imagine how the children in your class must feel if this is how you interact with them.
 
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