Delusion?

jgr said in post #135:

The cited fulfillments are undeniable . . .

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jgr said in post #135:

The cited fulfillments are undeniable . . .

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jgr said in post #140:

Luke describes the sign, which the believers could await as the trigger for their flight, being that of Jerusalem being compassed with armies.

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jgr said in post #135:

The cited fulfillments are undeniable . . .

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Bible2+ said:

Note that the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus Christ will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), hasn't started yet. For it will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the U.S.'s eastern seaboard.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could also cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the U.S.'s eastern seaboard. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who'd been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say they're YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind desperate before its takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when this army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all this will be part of only the 1st half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

It's at this point Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm he came to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, whom he could say is his only-begotten Son, called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of these 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the world's armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).

When Jesus Christ returns, immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), He will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the Church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge the Church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as He defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), a time period commonly called the Millennium.

At Jesus Christ's return, He will also make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the Church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the Church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the Millennium, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the Great White Throne Judgment will occur, in which all people who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus Christ's return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a New Heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a New Earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and He will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the Church (Revelation 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the New Earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will suffer forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

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Bible2+ said:

So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD

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jgr said in post #146:

What about these fulfillments . . .

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jgr said in post #146:

What about these fulfillments . . .

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Bible2+ said:

Note again that the details of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 have never been fulfilled.

For another example, the last 3 of the 4 horsemen (Revelation 6:4-8) represent a horrible future war which will begin the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

One way this war could happen is the U.S. could undertake a massive buildup of the Iraqi Army, initially to bring about the total (and lasting) defeat of the Islamic State militant group (also known as ISIS, ISIL or Daesh) in Iraq and eastern and southern Syria, and eventually so the Iraqi Army can serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, to end Iran's nuclear weapons program, ballistic missile program, terrorist-group support operations, and its extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall much of the former Iraqi Baathist military hierarchy (which existed under Baathist Saddam Hussein) to run the present Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly.

And if the current, Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any return of a Baathist-dominated military (which cruelly suppressed the Iraqi Shiites under Saddam Hussein), or balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead Western intelligence agencies to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For they could see a well-run, Baathist Iraqi Army and government as the only way to permanently defeat Islamic State, and the only way to eventually invade and defeat Iran, which invasion the Iraqi Baathists could agree to perform. For they see meddling, non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

Indeed, the current military brains of the Islamic State are former Iraqi Baathist generals who can't stand the Iraqi government is so heavily influenced by Iran. They see (Sunni Arab) Islamic State as the only current, viable bulwark against the Iranians and Shiite Arabs taking control of all of Iraq and Syria. But if there are secret, Western overtures toward these generals, they could very well agree to defect from serving Islamic State to serving a non-sectarian Iraqi Army drawn mainly (not exclusively) from Sunni Arab and Kurdish militias in western and northern Iraq, which with secret Western assistance could then march on Baghdad and completely overthrow the current Iraqi government, which is very weak and corrupt.

Once the Iraqi Baathists take back control of the Iraqi government and military, they could then completely and permanently defeat ISIS and all Iranian-supported Shiite militias in Iraq and eastern and southern Syria. Then, to help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of a subsequent, all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, "false flag" operations could be managed by Western intelligence agencies by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false "Messiah": cf. Matthew 24:24) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to clear the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending they're doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the small territory of Israel, completely defeating and occupying it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being like a 51st state of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free from all foreign (including U.S.) hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many still secretly tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles, and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and a thousand Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its small area of land overrun, and sees its total defeat and occupation is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran and other major cities of Iraq, Syria and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere, they could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the religious fundamentalism of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, that is, the (correct) idea the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and all other religions are cursed, doubly cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing the Antichrist could do once he's given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist federation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt and a "United Palestine" (that is, a defeated and occupied Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22).

These ultra-Orthodox Jews could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it's not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm, such as by incapacitating its Jewish defenders with huge clouds of tear gas while tens of thousands of Arab soldiers wearing gas masks take control of the city by climbing over its walls on thousands of tall ladders.

But then, instead of imprisoning or executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City of Jerusalem 7 years to show they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well-equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (that is, to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat and occupy Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses across the Arab world as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings, sheikhs and innumerable princes of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "Hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, the Prophet's own people, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western, infidel interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat and occupation of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a truly-federal United Arab States stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "World peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich United Arab States join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire world (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole world by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6).

The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). These 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus Christ returns, He will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and He will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected Church (of all times, including those in the Church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

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Adstar said:

So since the Anti-christ / son of perdition has not arrived on the scene yet then no the strong delusion is not yet active in regard to him..

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jgr said in post #150:

My questions remain unanswered.

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Bible2+ said:

Also, so many of the details of the Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 have never been fulfilled.

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Petros2015 said:

Unless of course, he Had arrived on the scene and you were deluded into thinking he hadn't. Just sayin'

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Hal A Peno said:

I can't imagine this would imply the seas globally. If a volcano erupts in the Atlantic, that won't affect the Pacific. It's not usually that difficult to determine whether a verse implies something global or regional, sometimes it is questionable. In Revelation 8, the word sea is singular likely infering something limited to one sea. I think that could be the Atlantic or Pacific, but the word SEA "thalassa" usually implies the Med. In the genitive case it likely implies a certain sea.

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Bible2+ said:

For another example, the end of the 2nd Jewish temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in Jerusalem in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus Christ spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2

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Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4 said:

Strong delusion is antichrist i believe , antichrist does not mean half devil human with horns but a person who replaces Christ and announce to people that he is Christ himself . We know that Satan will declare himself as Jesus and will do miracles , so many people will be deceived by that delusion .

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