Is Speaking In Tongues Biblical Today?

FenderTL5

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No the church fathers said that Corinthian tongues, as well as those spoken by everyday believers, were foreign human languages..
Going further, the founders of the charismatic movement themselves also believed that their tongues were foreign languages, to be used for missionary work.

"A minister says that God showed him twenty years ago that the divine plan for missionaries was that they might receive the gift of tongues either before going to the foreign field or on the way. It should be a sign to the heathen that the message is of God. The gift of tongues can only be used as the Spirit gives utterance. It cannot be learned like the native tongues, but the Lord takes control of the organs of speech at will. It is emphatically, God’s message." (The Apostolic Faith, Vol. 1, No. 1, September 1906)

The first modern tongues speaker was Agnes Ozman at Topeka Bible College, she supposedly spoke in Chinese. Charles F. Parham believed he was speaking in Swedish.
 
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1stcenturylady

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As you are the one making the assertion that tongues ceased only to be restored later, the onus is on you to prove it. Where does it say that?

The early and latter rain.
 
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Major1

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Going further, the founders of the charismatic movement themselves also believed that their tongues were foreign languages, to be used for missionary work.

"A minister says that God showed him twenty years ago that the divine plan for missionaries was that they might receive the gift of tongues either before going to the foreign field or on the way. It should be a sign to the heathen that the message is of God. The gift of tongues can only be used as the Spirit gives utterance. It cannot be learned like the native tongues, but the Lord takes control of the organs of speech at will. It is emphatically, God’s message." (The Apostolic Faith, Vol. 1, No. 1, September 1906)

The first modern tongues speaker was Agnes Ozman at Topeka Bible College, she supposedly spoke in Chinese. Charles F. Parham believed he was speaking in Swedish.

That is also what I understand as well.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Those verses are not taken out of context. With just a little study one can see easily that 1st Corinthians 12-14, comprises one section focused on a single theme.

As I have stated before, the Scriptures clearly tell us that there were several problems in the church at Corinth. The questions from the members addressed to Paul were not simply about spiritual gifts per se, as if all they needed were more information on the issue.

Paul's response reveals that it is a problem with the gift of tongues and the nature of true spirituality. The Corinthians had made the gift of tongues the sign of true spirituality and had urged all to speak in tongues as evidence of such spirituality. Paul's response involves information, but it is primarily corrective.

The context
then is Paul's response to the Corinthians' abuse of the gift of tongues and their misguided views of true spirituality, Paul argues the following: true spirituality consists in love of the brethern which manifests itself by making all attempts to bring edification and strengthening to the diversified body of Christ. Under this umbrella he argues that uninterpreted tongues are detrimental to the body because no one is edified by a manifestation of the Spirit they cannot understand.

That is exactly what I have been saying in this thread!

Prophecy is to be preferred in this light since it is comprehensible to the body, providing the nourishment it so desperately needs. Also, order is to be maintained in the exercise of the gifts as this promotes edification and reflects a God who produces peace in and between believers.

When you don't include verse 23 you come up with your theory. Wrong. A natural mistake, but could be avoided by keeping in context. A sign which will be spoken against confirms an unbeliever in their unbelief. That is why if all speak in tongues and an unbeliever comes in they will think you are crazy! It is a judgment revealing the heart. Same as verse 21.

They thought Jesus was crazy too for claiming to be God. Others believed and were saved.

Same with tongues there are believers and there are mockers.
 
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Major1

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When you don't include verse 23 you come up with your theory. Wrong. A sign which will be spoken against confirms an unbeliever in their unbelief.

Again, I realize how important it is for you to believe that is the case, however it is not.

1 Cor. 14:23...........
"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"

Dearly beloved, there is no room here for misunderstanding. What Paul is saying is that God's purpose in the church is that believers be edified and unbelievers be reached with the message that is simple and understandable, appealing to the conscience and heart of the unbeliever causing him to turn from Satan and to Jesus.

God speaks through people in this day we live in and He wants us to use words that will bring conviction and salvation to the unbeliever and at the same time, comfort, edification and instruction to the believer.

That is simply not possible if everyone all began to speak in tongues for even though themselves might be edified and blessed, the purpose of the meeting is missed entirely insofar as the Lord is concerned.

Whatever testimony is given in the church, whether by the preacher or the laymen, it must appeal to the heart and touch the conscience of all the people, especially the conscience of the unbeliever. Any service that does not produce such an effect is NOT a service where God is having His way because if God has His way, the saints will be edified and sinners will be convicted and brought under conviction and ultimately saved.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Again, I realize how important it is for you to believe that is the case, however it is not.

1 Cor. 14:23...........
"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"

Dearly beloved, there is no room here for misunderstanding. What Paul is saying is that God's purpose in the church is that believers be edified and unbelievers be reached with the message that is simple and understandable, appealing to the conscience and heart of the unbeliever causing him to turn from Satan and to Jesus.

God speaks through people in this day we live in and He wants us to use words that will bring conviction and salvation to the unbeliever and at the same time, comfort, edification and instruction to the believer.

That is simply not possible if everyone all began to speak in tongues for even though themselves might be edified and blessed, the purpose of the meeting is missed entirely insofar as the Lord is concerned.

Whatever testimony is given in the church, whether by the preacher or the laymen, it must appeal to the heart and touch the conscience of all the people, especially the conscience of the unbeliever. Any service that does not produce such an effect is NOT a service where God is having His way because if God has His way, the saints will be edified and sinners will be convicted and brought under conviction and ultimately saved.

I'm talking about tongues as a SIGN to the unbeliever. You have to know what kind of sign it is for it to make sense. You believe it is preaching so a positive sign. But it isn't. It is a sign WHICH WILL BE SPOKEN AGAINST. THAT is why unbelievers and the uninformed in the church will think you are crazy.
 
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Major1

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The early and latter rain.

I really do hate to see that happen.

Instead of a "latter reign" of Christians where the Spirit of God is poured, the Bible actually speaks more specifically on a great falling away instead of a harvest in the last days.

This movement you are referring to is an outgrowth of the restoration "kingdom now" movement and claiming to bring restored truth to the earth. It is mostly anti-Israel and applies eschatological passages for Israel to the church. It says that the church has replaced Israel as one of its false teachings.

This movement also involves numerous false teachings such as the manifested Sons of God doctrine, that certain believers will not die but be made immortal in these last days. It also teaches that there will be an army led by new prophets and apostles into the greatest manifestations of spiritual gifts the church has ever seen. Miracles will be greater than even the apostles.

A common mistake is taking the scripture in Acts 2:17 which says: 'God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh.' This verse is being used to substantiate what is happening in the new revivals today. This is not the meaning of this verse and cannot be applied today.

May I point out to you that In Joel 2:27, the phrase 'former rain' is used in the spring, and the 'latter Rain' denotes the autumn. Joel is saying that in the Millennium, both of these rains will occur in the first month. God will pour out His provisions on their crops, thereby giving Israel abundance and restoring the material blessings to their nation which will prove that God is with them again, and that their shame has been removed.

Truly the meaning conveyed here is physical rain needed to restore wheat, wine, and oil. What's even more important is that the latter rain is in the first month. Truly the meaning conveyed here is physical rain needed to restore wheat, wine, and oil. In Israel you have two rainy seasons called the former and later rain. At the end of the spring rain you had a harvest that was for grain, at the end of the Autumn season you had a harvest which was for fruit. But you also have a long hot summer in Israel.

Israel basically has two seasons Israel is agriculturally reliant on its water supply because it doesn’t rain in summer. To understand this now spiritually. The former rain the latter rain are two rains and they correspond to the 7 feast days given in Lev.23. In the first portion the former rain, 4 feasts of Israel were fulfilled in the spring season by Jesus' first coming. The last three feasts will be fulfilled by his 2nd coming as he literally comes to earth to bring his kingdom and rule the nations.

I do hope that you will consider these Biblical facts and ponder them with prayer.
 
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swordsman1

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The early and latter rain.

The latter rain teaching is a false interpretation of scripture. Charismatics latched onto the term to try to give legitimacy to the charismatic movement which they regard as a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

But the latter rain prophecy in Joel has nothing to do with tongues or the Holy Spirit. That earlier prophecy of Joel was not quoted by Peter at Pentecost. In that prophecy there is no indication that Joel was referring to anything other than God blessing the physical land of Israel as the context dictates. Rain had never been used as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. If you are trying to symbolize the rain, then you have to symbolize everything else in that passage. What does the "beasts of the field" symbolize? The "pastures of the wilderness", the "tree has borne its fruit", the "fig tree and the vine" etc? You can't symbolize the rain with symbolizing those too. It is simply a case of finding something, anything that kind of fits, to try and symbolize the charismatic movement and so justify it. If you look hard enough you can always find something in scripture to symbolize absolutely anything you care to think of.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I really do hate to see that happen.

Instead of a "latter reign" of Christians where the Spirit of God is poured, the Bible actually speaks more specifically on a great falling away instead of a harvest in the last days.

This movement you are referring to is an outgrowth of the restoration "kingdom now" movement and claiming to bring restored truth to the earth. It is mostly anti-Israel and applies eschatological passages for Israel to the church. It says that the church has replaced Israel as one of its false teachings.

This movement also involves numerous false teachings such as the manifested Sons of God doctrine, that certain believers will not die but be made immortal in these last days. It also teaches that there will be an army led by new prophets and apostles into the greatest manifestations of spiritual gifts the church has ever seen. Miracles will be greater than even the apostles.

A common mistake is taking the scripture in Acts 2:17 which says: 'God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh.' This verse is being used to substantiate what is happening in the new revivals today. This is not the meaning of this verse and cannot be applied today.

May I point out to you that In Joel 2:27, the phrase 'former rain' is used in the spring, and the 'latter Rain' denotes the autumn. Joel is saying that in the Millennium, both of these rains will occur in the first month. God will pour out His provisions on their crops, thereby giving Israel abundance and restoring the material blessings to their nation which will prove that God is with them again, and that their shame has been removed.

Truly the meaning conveyed here is physical rain needed to restore wheat, wine, and oil. What's even more important is that the latter rain is in the first month. Truly the meaning conveyed here is physical rain needed to restore wheat, wine, and oil. In Israel you have two rainy seasons called the former and later rain. At the end of the spring rain you had a harvest that was for grain, at the end of the Autumn season you had a harvest which was for fruit. But you also have a long hot summer in Israel.

Israel basically has two seasons Israel is agriculturally reliant on its water supply because it doesn’t rain in summer. To understand this now spiritually. The former rain the latter rain are two rains and they correspond to the 7 feast days given in Lev.23. In the first portion the former rain, 4 feasts of Israel were fulfilled in the spring season by Jesus' first coming. The last three feasts will be fulfilled by his 2nd coming as he literally comes to earth to bring his kingdom and rule the nations.

I do hope that you will consider these Biblical facts and ponder them with prayer.

I'm not talking about some group that calls themselves the latter rain, or whatever. I'm talking about the Holy Spirit and scripture.

You are referring to: "It is mostly anti-Israel and applies eschatological passages for Israel to the church. It says that the church has replaced Israel as one of its false teachings."

I am pro-Israel and do not believe in replacement theology at all.
 
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1stcenturylady

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The latter rain teaching is a false interpretation of scripture. Charismatics latched onto the term to try to give legitimacy to the charismatic movement which they regard as a new outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

But the latter rain prophecy in Joel has nothing to do with tongues or the Holy Spirit. That earlier prophecy of Joel was not quoted by Peter at Pentecost. In that prophecy there is no indication that Joel was referring to anything other than God blessing the physical land of Israel as the context dictates. Rain had never been used as a metaphor for the Holy Spirit. If you are trying to symbolize the rain, then you have to symbolize everything else in that passage. What does the "beasts of the field" symbolize? The "pastures of the wilderness", the "tree has borne its fruit", the "fig tree and the vine" etc? You can't symbolize the rain with symbolizing those too. It is simply a case of finding something, anything that kind of fits, to try and symbolize the charismatic movement and so justify it. If you look hard enough you can always find something in scripture to symbolize absolutely anything you care to think of.

There are many things that all happen just before Christ returns. The latter rain of the Holy Spirit, AND Israel becoming a nation again are just two of them. There will also be a falling away and the Antichrist will be revealed. (Pentecostals are on fire for God and not in that group.) As I told Major, I and every Pentecostal I know believes God is not done with national Israel. We are pro-Israel and pro-the Holy Spirit and pro-everything God has for us, including His gifts. We believe His Word; we do not tell God His gifts are not welcome or call them names like "gibberish." We have a very healthy fear of the Lord. If there is a replacement theology group that calls themselves the latter rain, you know more about it than I do.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Again, I realize how important it is for you to believe that is the case, however it is not.

1 Cor. 14:23...........
"Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"

Dearly beloved, there is no room here for misunderstanding. What Paul is saying is that God's purpose in the church is that believers be edified and unbelievers be reached with the message that is simple and understandable, appealing to the conscience and heart of the unbeliever causing him to turn from Satan and to Jesus.

God speaks through people in this day we live in and He wants us to use words that will bring conviction and salvation to the unbeliever and at the same time, comfort, edification and instruction to the believer.

That is simply not possible if everyone all began to speak in tongues for even though themselves might be edified and blessed, the purpose of the meeting is missed entirely insofar as the Lord is concerned.

Whatever testimony is given in the church, whether by the preacher or the laymen, it must appeal to the heart and touch the conscience of all the people, especially the conscience of the unbeliever. Any service that does not produce such an effect is NOT a service where God is having His way because if God has His way, the saints will be edified and sinners will be convicted and brought under conviction and ultimately saved.

Tongues is a sign to the unbeliever in that they will speak against it. That is why we are to be careful in church to only use the gift of diverse kinds of tongues with an immediate interpretation AND a short teaching on what just happened to the uninformed. This only takes up 1 to 5% of a meeting. The rest is teaching and praising God.
 
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swordsman1

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There are many things that all happen just before Christ returns. The latter rain of the Holy Spirit, AND Israel becoming a nation again are just two of them. There will also be a falling away and the Antichrist will be revealed. (Pentecostals are on fire for God and not in that group.) As I told Major, I and every Pentecostal I know believes God is not done with national Israel. We are pro-Israel and pro-the Holy Spirit and pro-everything God has for us, including His gifts. We believe His Word; we do not tell God His gifts are not welcome or call them names like "gibberish." We have a very healthy fear of the Lord. If there is a replacement theology group that calls themselves the latter rain, you know more about it than I do.

I made no mention of a latter rain group. My post concerns the highly suspect charismatic interpretation of Joel’s prophecy about latter rain being a 2nd outpouring of the Spirit. It is just pure fantasy.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I made no mention of a latter rain group. My post concerns the highly suspect charismatic interpretation of Joel’s prophecy about latter rain being a 2nd outpouring of the Spirit. It is just pure fantasy.

Oh, sorry, that was Major. I do not believe it is fantasy. I believe it is merely a second part to the Joel 2 prophecy of things that will happen in the last days. And this latest outpouring of the Holy Spirit around 1900 fits perfectly. If you don't see it, or don't want to because it messes with your own theology, so be it.

Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth
. Hosea 6:1-3
 
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Major1

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Oh, sorry, that was Major. I do not believe it is fantasy. I believe it is merely a second part to the Joel 2 prophecy of things that will happen in the last days. And this latest outpouring of the Holy Spirit around 1900 fits perfectly. If you don't see it, or don't want to because it messes with your own theology, so be it.

Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth
. Hosea 6:1-3

In comment #832 you said.............
"I'm not talking about some group that calls themselves the latter rain, or whatever. I'm talking about the Holy Spirit and scripture."

Now you said...................
"I do not believe it is fantasy. I believe it is merely a second part to the Joel 2 prophecy of things that will happen in the last days."

That is exactly what I and @swordsman1 are telling you my dear. What you believe is exactly what the "latter Rain" false teaching is all about. It is fantasy!!!!!
 
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1stcenturylady

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In comment #832 you said.............
"I'm not talking about some group that calls themselves the latter rain, or whatever. I'm talking about the Holy Spirit and scripture."

Now you said...................
"I do not believe it is fantasy. I believe it is merely a second part to the Joel 2 prophecy of things that will happen in the last days."

That is exactly what I and @swordsman1 are telling you my dear. What you believe is exactly what the "latter Rain" false teaching is all about. It is fantasy!!!!!

It is about Joel 2, Hosea 6, Zechariah 10:1 and James 5:7. That is prophecy, not fantasy. You said the "latter rain" teaching was against Israel. If there is such a teaching against Israel calling itself the latter rain, that is false. I am going by the scriptures I presented, not the teachings of a sect with a cool name.
 
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tdidymas

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You are mistaken. You haven't proven anything except in your own mind. LOL

And which do you believe? To or From?




You wanted me to build a website, just for you. Get real! If you think you won something, congratulations.
The very least you could do is attach a video to a pm for me (or give me a dropbox link), and I would do the rest of the work. The fact that you chide me for "wanting you to build a website just for me" shows how your attitude is hostile to my me, because I stated very clearly that it was for the (perhaps) millions of us who are skeptic of your "tongues" practice. You are simply too lazy to do what it takes to love your neighbor. Your exaggerative response is your way of justifying your refusal to be accountable.

Further, you suggest that I think I won something? If that's what is on your mind, it appears to me that your agenda is to win a debate! It appears to me that your whole purpose here is self-serving.
TD:)
 
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1stcenturylady

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The very least you could do is attach a video to a pm for me (or give me a dropbox link), and I would do the rest of the work. The fact that you chide me for "wanting you to build a website just for me" shows how your attitude is hostile to my me, because I stated very clearly that it was for the (perhaps) millions of us who are skeptic of your "tongues" practice. You are simply too lazy to do what it takes to love your neighbor. Your exaggerative response is your way of justifying your refusal to be accountable.

Further, you suggest that I think I won something? If that's what is on your mind, it appears to me that your agenda is to win a debate! It appears to me that your whole purpose here is self-serving.
TD:)

You want me to do something I don't know how to do. Should I enroll in school? I don't have a video camera or smart phone. So if you call that a bad attitude and self-serving, so be it. But you are way off base. And your purpose is to try to do evil. I won't have any part of it. If you keep provoking me I will just put you on ignore, and you can talk behind my back.
 
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DamianWarS

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This is what Bruce Compton has to say about the neuter form of teleios. He is professor of biblical languages and exposition at Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary, so he should know a thing or two about NT Greek. I have also included his footnotes.

The Gender and Meaning of “the Perfect”
The critical question raised with these verses is the meaning of the term “the perfect” (to; tevleion) in 13:10. The term “the perfect” represents an articular neuter adjective functioning as a substantive and translated “the perfect” or “that which is perfect.”71 Much has been said about the neuter gender of the adjective and what that indicates in terms of the adjective’s antecedent.72 The best explanation is that the adjective gets its gender from the neuter noun forming the expression “in part” in 13:9–10. In other words, by using the neuter form of the adjective in this context, Paul signifies that whatever the “in part” refers to, “the perfect” refers to its counterpart or its antithesis.73 Having the adjective in the neuter gender thus links “the perfect” and the “in part” as having ultimately the same referent. Whatever the “in part” refers to, the “perfect” refers to as well. The only difference between the two expressions is the difference over the relative dimension or extent of the referent.

Having answered the question about the gender and antecedent of “the perfect,” what remains is to identify the meaning of “in part” in 13:9. Since Paul declares that the gifts mentioned in 13:9 are in some way “in part,” the proper approach to identifying the meaning of the phrase is to ask what these gifts have in common that could be described as “in part.” Based on the definitions given above, the common denominator among the gifts is that they all involve direct revelation from God. As such, the expression “in part” simply refers to the fact that the revelation communicated by these gifts is partial or piecemeal. The corresponding expression “the perfect” as the counterpart to the partial must refer to the full or complete revelation, of which these gifts contribute their portion. Finally, since these gifts are specifically identified in 12:27–28 as those which God has given to the church, the body of Christ, “the perfect” represents the full or complete revelation that God intends for the church. Thus, “the perfect” points to completed revelation God has intended for the church and has preserved in the New Testament.74


71 Similarly BDAG, s.v. “τέλειον,” p. 995. Carson inexplicably identifies the gender of the adjective as masculine (Showing the Spirit, p. 69).

72 Eg. Edgar, Miraculous Gifts, pp. 334-35.

73 The gender of an adjective is generally determined by the gender of the word it modifies. This is true even if the adjective is used as a substantive, as here. Mounce notes, "When an adjective functions as a substantive its... gender and number are determined by what it stands for" (William D. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar, 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2003), p. 65). While the noun for which the adjective stands is not always clear or easy to supply, nevertheless that for which the adjective substitutes generally determines the gender of the adjective. See C. F. D. Moule, An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, 2nd ed. (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1959), p. 96; Stanley E. Porter, Idioms of the Greek New Testament, 2nd ed. (Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1994), pp. 120–21; Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 294. Porter emphasizes the exceptions where an antecedent noun is unnecessary or impossible to identify. On the relationship between ἐκ μέρους and τὸ τέλειον, see Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, s.v. “τέλειός," by G. Delling, 8:75. Discussing the use of the adjective in the New Testament, Delling states, "In the Pauline corpus the meaning 'whole’ is suggested at 1 C. 13:10 by the antithesis to ἐκ μέρους”

74 See, for example, Gromacki, who concludes, "Logically, to teleion must refer to completeness or perfection in the same realm as that referred to by to ek merous. Since to ek merous refers to the transmission of divine truth by revelation, the other term to teleion must refer to God's complete revelation of truth, the entire New Testament” (The Modern Tongues Movement, p. 126, citing Gilbert B. Weaver, "Tongues Shall Cease: 1 Corinthians 13:8," research paper, Grace Theological Seminary, 1964), p. 12).

What I provided in my most recent post is greek fact; the word is an abstract concept and is not grammatically bound by a "thing". What Mr. Compton provides is his interpretation on the text. He may very well be competent in greek but he doesn't really discuss the greek save for a few examples, rather he talks about interpreting the text. His point about "'the perfect' and the 'in part' as having ultimately the same referent" is sound but this doesn't have to mean scripture. I am not dogmatic that it's Christ but do strongly see it is a reference to an event analogous to Christ's return if it's not Christ himself. When Christ returns we are given incorruptible bodies if we demand that these terms refer to the same referent then our bodies are "in-part" but then they will be brought to full "completeness".

Commentaries pre-20 century since antiquity agree that this is talking about about Christ, either in his return or seeing him face-to-face in heaven. This idea that the perfect is the canon has been a forced interpretation in defence of the pentecostal movement which started at the beginning of the 20th century and it's position would have been rejected prior to the 20th century. It's an interpretation that starts with an agenda to discredit tongues and is flat out irresponsible.
 
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