The worst thing about Calvinism

Jason0047 said:

Abraham asked, "Shall not the Judge of the earth do right?"

"That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25).

Yes, I am aware that saints have been persecuted. But this is not the same thing as believers being judged by a major miracle type judgment by God. We see God responding to Abraham's concern even before He asks. The two angels were already on their way to save the righteous out of that wicked city of Sodom.

I am just trying to wrap my head around your concept of morality. Do you think God has a standard of morality? If so, can you describe it for me? Is God's good and loving behavior consistent and trust worthy? I would say... "yes." My problem is not with God being moral and good. I know God is moral and good. My problem is the god of Calvinism is not moral and good. You think this is God as described to you in the Bible, but it is not. God would not force save just a few when He has the power to force save them all. But God does not force save anyone. Man has free will choice to choose God or to reject Him (under God's drawing).


...

Click to expand...

Jason0047 said:

Did you ever believe it was immoral in what Calvinists believed? How did you ever get over the hurtle of the moral issue? Not that I am even remotely interested in believing as you do. For I know that what you believe is false. I am so convinced about that fact that I would be willing to die for my belief on this.


...

Click to expand...

Jason0047 said:

Wow. Are you kidding me? So you went from believing the god of Calvinism was immoral to believing that He is not immoral and yet you cannot explain the goodness of God or the morality behind His actions? That is scary. I cannot imagine that. God is good. He will never do anything that would make me question His morality. So explain it to me. How did you go from believing the god of Calvinism was immoral to not believing that way? What moral and good thing of the Lord convinced you?


...

Click to expand...

Jason0047 said:

See. That is the problem. God is not asking you to shut off your moral compass in believing a few select verses taken out of context. I also used to at one time believe in Total Depravity and yet I rejected all the other points of Calvinism. But after studying the Scriptures objectively, I have come to believe that Scripture disagreed with Total Inability. I had a long list of verses and felt confident in Total Inability at one time. But in time, God should me otherwise.

For example: Calvinists love to point out how "death" is tied to the wicked and Inability or Total Depravity.

Yet, they are not consistent in the use of this word "death." Romans 6:3-6 and Galatians 2:2 is not saying that believers have a “total inability” to sin. So "death" does not always imply that it will stay dead.


...

Click to expand...

Jason0047 said:

This is scary. You cannot explain the goodness of God? Really? Are you kidding me?
Jesus died on the cross!
That is certainly something that was good and loving that God did for us.
But there are things God cannot do. Do you believe that?
Or do you think God can do anything He wants?
God cannot sin.
Do you believe God is holy?


...

Click to expand...

Jason0047 said:

But you said before that the god of Calvinism was immoral and now you believe this is not the case and yet you are unable to explain it. You just believe an obviously wrong interpretation in Scripture over what you believed to be morally wrong before. Why do you think no Calvinist here has explained the morality or goodness behind their god's actions in regards to Soteriology? It's because it is not the God of the Bible because God's good and moral ways can always be easily explained. We just do not see that in Calvinism. You throw down the Scripture card and that is it. But not only do I have Scripture (and lots of it, too), but I also have morality and real world examples on my side backing me up, as well. This is not the case with Calvinism.


...

Click to expand...

Jason0047 said:

But what would be the "everything" that God does is good?
Could it be evil and bad things?
Could it be sinful things?
For example: Do you think God cannot keep His promises and still be good?
Do you think God would still be good if He changed His mind and decided to reward the wicked and punish the saints instead? What about good things God does in a believer's life like giving them love and peace, etc.? Can God just one day take away believer's peace and love and make them to hate the brethren all of a sudden? Would God be good if He did that? What if God asked you to torture only children and the mentally handicapped? Do you think that would be good? Is there no standard of morality for the God you believe in? He can just do ANYTHING? Can God lead man into sin and still be good? What about children? Can God still be good even if He asked a believer to lead a child into sin? Surely not. For we know God is good and we CAN explain God's goodness. It is not a mystery as you make it out to be.



...

Click to expand...

Jason0047 said:

You are finally admitting God has a standard of morality or goodness to Him.

Click to expand...

Jason0047 said:

So in conclusion:
The moral problem I see is two fold with Calvinism.

#1. God force regenerates some people to be saved for no real particular reason and yet He could have saved everyone (if He wanted to).

#2. Calvinism many times dodges the moral issue of God. Why? Because they would have to confront the actions of their god's behavior in how He saves.


...

Click to expand...