Giving a Voice to the Voiceless

Status
Not open for further replies.

SPF

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2017
3,594
1,984
ATL
✟142,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The question of when human life begins has been answered in a variety of ways by different religious and philosophical traditions throughout the ages, leading many to conclude the question cannot be definitively answered. Yet what does science tell us about when life begins?[1] One of the basic insights of modern biology is that life is continuous, with living cells giving rise to new types of cells and, ultimately, to new individuals. Therefore, in considering the question of when a new human life begins, we must first address the more fundamental question of when a new cell, distinct from sperm and egg, comes into existence.

The scientific basis for distinguishing one cell type from another rests on two criteria: differences in what something is made of (its molecular composition) and differences in how the cell behaves. These two criteria are universally agreed upon and employed throughout the scientific enterprise. They are not “religious” beliefs or matters of personal opinion. They are objective, verifiable scientific criteria that determine precisely when a new cell type is formed.

Based on these criteria, the joining (or fusion) of sperm and egg clearly produces a new cell type, the zygote or one-cell embryo. Cell fusion is a well studied and very rapid event, occurring in less than a second. Because the zygote arises from the fusion of two different cells, it contains all the components of both sperm and egg, and therefore this new cell has a unique molecular composition that is distinct from either gamete. Thus the zygote that comes into existence at the moment of sperm-egg fusion meets the first scientific criterion for being a new cell type: its molecular make-up is clearly different from that of the cells that gave rise to it.

Subsequent to sperm-egg fusion, events rapidly occur in the zygote that do not normally occur in either sperm or egg. Within minutes, the zygote initiates a change in its internal state that will, over the next 30 minutes, block additional sperm from binding to the cell surface. Thus, the zygote acts immediately to oppose the function of the gametes from which it is derived; while the “goal” of both sperm and egg is to find each other and to fuse, the first act of the zygote is to prevent any further binding of sperm to the cell surface. Clearly, the zygote has entered into a new pattern of behavior, and therefore meets the second scientific criterion for being a new cell type.

What is the nature of the new cell that comes into existence upon sperm-egg fusion? Most importantly, is the zygote merely another human cell (like a liver cell or a skin cell) or is it something else? Just as science distinguishes between different types of cells, it also makes clear distinctions between cells and organisms. Both cells and organisms are alive, yet organisms exhibit unique characteristics that can reliably distinguish them from mere cells.[2]

An organism is defined as “(1) a complex structure of interdependent and subordinate elements whose relations and properties are largely determined by their function in the whole and (2) an individual constituted to carry on the activities of life by means of organs separate in function but mutually dependent: a living being.” (Merriam-Webster) This definition stresses the interaction of parts in the context of a coordinated whole as the distinguishing feature of an organism. Organisms are “living beings.” Therefore, another name for a human organism is a “human being”; an entity that is a complete human, rather than a part of a human.

Human beings can be distinguished from human cells using the same kind of criteria scientists use to distinguish different cell types. A human being (i.e., a human organism) is composed of human parts (cells, proteins, RNA, DNA), yet it is different from a mere collection of cells because it has the characteristic molecular composition and behavior of an organism: it acts in an interdependent and coordinated manner to “carry on the activities of life.”

Human embryos from the one-cell (zygote) stage forward show uniquely integrated, organismal behavior that is unlike the behavior of mere human cells. The zygote produces increasingly complex tissues, structures and organs that work together in a coordinated way. Importantly, the cells, tissues and organs produced during development do not somehow “generate” the embryo (as if there were some unseen, mysterious “manufacturer” directing this process), they are produced by the embryo as it directs its own development to more mature stages of human life. This organized, coordinated behavior of the embryo is the defining characteristic of a human organism.

In contrast to human embryos, human cells are alive and, under some circumstances, they can assemble into primitive tissues and structures. Yet under no circumstances do mere human cells produce the kind of coordinated interactions necessary for building a fully integrated human body. They do not produce tissues in a coherent manner and do not organize them so as to sustain the life of the entity as a whole. They produce tumors; i.e., parts of the human body in a chaotic, disorganized manner. They behave like cells, not like organisms.

The conclusion that human life begins at sperm-egg fusion is uncontested, objective, based on the universally accepted scientific method of distinguishing different cell types from each other and on ample scientific evidence (thousands of independent, peer-reviewed publications). Moreover, it is entirely independent of any specific ethical, moral, political, or religious view of human life or of human embryos. Indeed, this definition does not directly address the central ethical question surrounding the embryo: What value ought society place on human life at the earliest stages of development? A neutral examination of the evidence merely establishes the onset of a new human life at a scientifically well-defined “moment of conception,” a conclusion that unequivocally indicates that human embryos from the one-cell stage forward are indeed living individuals of the human species; i.e., human beings.

-Dr. Condic is Associate Professor of Neurobiology and Adjunct Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Utah School of Medicine. She is also Director of Human Embryology instruction for the Medical School and of Human Neuroanatomy for the Dental School.

Douglas, at this point life, thanks to the progression of science, medicine, and biology - we know that human life begins at conception. It's simply not debated and argued any longer. There comes a point where you need to face reality and be willing to shift your belief to correspond with reality.

You have never been able to post anything with any supporting evidence. The most you've ever done is give really poor eisegetical opinions.

You can't honestly expect me or anyone who's following along with this topic to actually be convinced by what you say when you are not able to provide ANY credible support for the things you say. If you were in highschool and were writing a paper on this, you would get an F because you wouldn't even be able to cite the 4 sources for reference that the teacher asked for.
 
Upvote 0

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Btw, the rule is that a fetus isn't a human being until it consumes food and drinks water. Ie. the necessary injestation of food and water, that is the way things work, part of what it is to be born.

Where do you get that "rule" from?

That rule comes from reality, is reality.

Like I indicated, injestation of food and water (and all the processes for digestion and elimination)
ARE ONLY FIRST OPERATIONAL AT BIRTH. Only a couple of very many very complex differences between the fetus and the child. (If you cannot see that, I doubt any biologist could convince you.)

Do we really think there are human beings who cannot and do not ever pee, and still should be considered animals,
members of the species?
 
Upvote 0

-V-

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
1,229
511
USA
✟38,038.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
That rule comes from reality, is reality.

No, you've given nothing indicating that "rule" is anything beyond your personal opinion.

Like I indicated, injestation of food and water (and all the processes for digestion and elimination)
ARE ONLY FIRST OPERATIONAL AT BIRTH. Only a couple of very many very complex differences between the fetus and the child. (If you cannot see that, I doubt any biologist could convince you.)
You doubt any biologist could convince me? So you apparently DO acknowledge scientific, biological evidence. Yet all such evidence is that a fertilized egg is a living human being at conception, not at birth.

Do we really think there are human beings who cannot and do not ever pee, and still should be considered animals,
members of the species?
What's that got to do with anything?? I never suggested any such thing.
 
Upvote 0

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
The question of when human life begins has been answered in a variety of ways by different religious and philosophical traditions throughout the ages, leading many to conclude the question cannot be definitively answered. Yet what does science tell us about when life begins?[1] One of the basic insights of modern biology is that life is continuous, with living cells giving rise to new types of cells and, ultimately, to new individuals. Therefore, in considering the question of when a new human life begins, we must first address the more fundamental question of when a new cell, distinct from sperm and egg, comes into existence.

You fundamentally contradict yourself, suggesting that human life BEGINS, by asking the question of when it begins. And then YOU say: (quote "science" that agrees with me - so I don't have to!), "one of the basic insights of modern biology is that life is continuous ... ."
Don't you recognize thAT "continuous" is the opposite of having beginning(s)?

I already pointed this out and you seem somewhat to accept the truth ("science") of it, and then right away again seem deny the very easy to see truth that LIFE IS CONTINUOUS.
 
Upvote 0

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
That rule comes from reality, is reality.
Like I indicated, injestation of food and water (and all the processes for digestion and elimination)
ARE ONLY FIRST OPERATIONAL AT BIRTH. Only a couple of very many very complex differences between the fetus and the child. (If you cannot see that, I doubt any biologist could convince you.)

No, you've given nothing indicating that "rule" is anything beyond your personal opinion.

So, you are claiming it is "only my personal opinion" that injestion of food and water is only after birth, and it is only my opinion that both digestion and elimination as actual processes only are found after birth?
 
Upvote 0

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Douglas said:
Do we really think there are human beings who cannot and do not ever pee, and still should be considered animals,
members of the species?

-V- said
What's that got to do with anything?? I never suggested any such thing.

The question is (or at least should be), What is a human being?
So in considering whether something qualifies for that title, I suggest a human being properly so called should at least be able to pee, has the processes of digestion and elimination that all animals must have to qualify as animals, to be members of a species.

I also pointed out elsewhere that any REAL PERSON should at least consist of some flesh and blood. At conception there is not possible any flesh and blood, and therefore at conception there certainly cannot be a real person. Just one obvious and vital thing lacking, of many many things.

No peeing - no real person.
No flesh and no blood - no real person.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

-V-

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
1,229
511
USA
✟38,038.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
So, you are claiming it is "only my personal opinion" that injestion of food and water is only after birth, and it is only my opinion that both digestion and elimination as actual processes only are found after birth?
No, that's actually factually false. A fetus ingests nutrients and expels waste through the umbilical cord. The opinion part is you claiming the ingestion of food and expulsion of waste after birth is what makes it a human being.
 
Upvote 0

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
No, that's actually factually false. A fetus ingests nutrients and expels waste through the umbilical cord. The opinion part is you claiming the ingestion of food and expulsion of waste after birth is what makes it a human being.
What I said is true - it is only your "reconstruction" that is false.
 
Upvote 0

SPF

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2017
3,594
1,984
ATL
✟142,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
You fundamentally contradict yourself, suggesting that human life BEGINS, by asking the question of when it begins. And then YOU say: (quote "science" that agrees with me - so I don't have to!), "one of the basic insights of modern biology is that life is continuous ... ."
Don't you recognize thAT "continuous" is the opposite of having beginning(s)?
Douglas, this response makes me wonder if you actually took the time to read the essay beyond the first paragraph, because this response would indicate that you didn't. It's not something beyond the level of a middle school aged student in biology could understand. I recommend reading it back over. A new human being is formed at conception.

The question is (or at least should be), What is a human being?
So in considering whether something qualifies for that title, I suggest a human being properly so called should at least be able to pee
And this is based on what again? Your authoritative position based upon your education? Is this based upon something in Scripture? Douglas, if you haven't caught on yet, the reason nobody as far as I can tell has ever come on these forums and defended a position you hold is because you alone hold these positions and you are incapable of providing any substantial evidence or logical argument to support them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Douglas, this response makes me wonder if you actually took the time to read the essay beyond the first paragraph, because this response would indicate that you didn't. It's not something beyond the level of a middle school aged student in biology could understand. I recommend reading it back over. A new human being is formed at conception.

And this is based on what again? Your authoritative position based upon your education? Is this based upon something in Scripture? Douglas, if you haven't caught on yet, the reason nobody as far as I can tell has ever come on these forums and defended a position you hold is because you alone hold these positions and you are incapable of providing any substantial evidence or logical argument to support them.
So it's not logical to think that "generally speaking" a human being should be capable of peeing, or at least consist of some flesh and blood?

Do you want the definition of "human being" to be the most remote possible from having any possible intelligence, is that your view of WHAT A HUMAN BEING IS?
Two cells united into one that is not even visible to the naked eye? That is WHAT THE PINNACLE OF OF GOD'S IMMENSE CREATION IS, in your view?
Your arbitrarily calling that "a human being" will never be persuasive in itself.
(And your appeal to an authority is seriously flawed - I will point that out in a separate post. One thing at a time, please.)

And of course everybody agrees with you, except me of course!

My response to your post was one thing at a time - I guess I should have pointed that out. I will soon respond to your great scientist quote. (You might put quotes around your quotations.)

Of course? you would never admit there is any error in what you say - what do you make of THE CONTRADICTION in what you said that I pointed out?
(I consider that when it is distinctly and correctly (or incorrectly) pointed out that one has made an error, one should be quick to correct oneself (or correct the erstwhile corrector) - in my view that is a great aid in ongoing discussion. Of course the main thing is to attack me, not deal with any actual argument, is it not?)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
No, that's actually factually false. A fetus ingests nutrients and expels waste through the umbilical cord. The opinion part is you claiming the ingestion of food and expulsion of waste after birth is what makes it a human being.
You might have noticed that is NOT exactly what I said - I merely pointed out a couple of things that ARE part of the immense difference between a born actual person on the one hand, and a fetus on the other.

There is of course NO autonomy of the fetus, one of the characteristics of an actual organism being. It is NOT at all independent, it is IMPRISONED in a very small dark place with no possible locomotion to any other place, totally dependent on a chord to which it MUST remain attached in order for the cells it is composed of not to die. Far different from any living breathing actual animals. ("BEINGS," like in "human beings," actual members of a species.)
 
Upvote 0

-V-

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
1,229
511
USA
✟38,038.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
You might have noticed that is NOT exactly what I said - I merely pointed out a couple of things that ARE part of the immense difference between a born actual person on the one hand, and a fetus on the other.
No, you did NOT merely point out differences. You went beyond that and then declared that those differences make the unborn something other than a living human being. Further, you said that both ingestion of food and elimination of waste only happen after birth, which is completely false.

There is of course NO autonomy of the fetus, one of the characteristics of an actual organism being. It is NOT at all independent, it is IMPRISONED in a very small dark place with no possible locomotion to any other place, totally dependent on a chord to which it MUST remain attached in order for the cells it is composed of not to die. Far different from any living breathing actual animals. ("BEINGS," like in "human beings," actual members of a species.)
Yet there is not one scientific, medical, or biological definition of "life" or "human being" that states those conditions preclude the unborn from being living human beings.

As with everything else you've stated, you offer NOTHING but your personal unsubstantiated opinions that have no support in either science or the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Yet there is not one scientific, medical, or biological definition of "life" or "human being" that states those conditions preclude the unborn from being living human beings.

Definitions do NOT go beyond defining a word, in case you didn't notice.

When there is virtually total immobility as is necessarily the case in the womb, then it is OBVIOUS there is no autonomous mobile organism there!

Of course the obvious does not count for those who like to fail to distinguish between the human and a human being, who don't want to bother to notice there is a great difference between "human life" (composed of alive human cells, e.g. cancer cells or fetal cells), and a human being, a real person.

In fact this (first point) is so obvious that it seems even the most rudimentary biological texts don't bother pointing it out! Anyone with two brain cells can figure out what a human animal, member of the species is, though it helps to look at the definitions of "animal" and "organism."

It is not rocket science, and almost not even biological science, since everyone in the entire world is familiar with what a real actual animal is.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

-V-

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
1,229
511
USA
✟38,038.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Of course the obvious does not count for those who like to fail to distinguish between the human and a human being, who don't want to bother to notice there is a great difference between "human life" (composed of alive human cells, e.g. cancer cells or fetal cells), and a human being, a real person.

In fact this (first point) is so obvious that it seems even the most rudimentary biological texts don't bother pointing it out! Anyone with two brain cells can figure out what a human animal, member of the species is, though it helps to look at the definitions of "animal" and "organism."

It is not rocket science, and almost not even biological science, since everyone in the entire world is familiar with what a real actual animal is.
And yet you still provide no argument with any substance that the unborn are merely "composed of human cells" yet not a human being. Lots of unsubstantiated opinions and claims with nothing backing any of it up but your say-so.
 
Upvote 0

Douglas Hendrickson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 27, 2015
1,951
197
81
✟133,415.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
And yet you still provide no argument with any substance that the unborn are merely "composed of human cells" yet not a human being. Lots of unsubstantiated opinions and claims with nothing backing any of it up but your say-so.


They are not real actual animals, that is the point in case you didn't notice.

And HUMAN BEINGS are actual animals, members of their species and members of the animal kingdom.

Common sense or BASIC UNDERSTANDING (of obvious things in the world) is what tells anyone who cares to look that that is the way things are. Don't need any mad or great science to know that!
 
Upvote 0

-V-

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2016
1,229
511
USA
✟38,038.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
They are not real actual animals, that is the point in case you didn't notice.
According to who??

Animal:
"any of a kingdom (Animalia) of living things including many-celled organisms and often many of the single-celled ones (such as protozoans) that typically differ from plants in having cells without cellulose walls, in lacking chlorophyll and the capacity for photosynthesis, in requiring more complex food materials (such as proteins), in being organized to a greater degree of complexity, and in having the capacity for spontaneous movement and rapid motor responses to stimulation"
from: Definition of ANIMAL

That certainly does NOT exclude the unborn.

How about a biology dictionary?

Animal:
"A living organism belonging to Kingdom Animalia that possess several characteristics that set them apart from other living things, such as:

(1) being eukaryotic (i.e. the cell contains a membrane-bound nucleus) and usually multicellular (unlike bacteria and most protists, an animal is composed of several cells performing specific functions)
(2) being heterotrophic (unlike plants and algae that are autotrophic, an animal depends on another organism for sustenance) and generally digesting food in an internal chamber (such as a digestive tract)
(3) lacking cell wall (unlike plants, algae and some fungi that possess cell walls)
(4) being generally motile, that is being able to move voluntarily
(5) embryos passing through a blastula stage
(6) possessing specialized sensory organs for recognizing and responding to stimuli in the environment"
from: Animal - Biology-Online Dictionary

Once again, nothing excluding the unborn. Notice it specifically includes "embryos" (that would be the unborn, fyi).

Your entire argument rests on definitions that you seem to just be pulling out of thin air and making up all on your own.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SPF

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2017
3,594
1,984
ATL
✟142,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Douglas, I'm curious, can you rationally explain to everyone reading this topic why it is that you are incapable of providing any support outside of your own written text as reason to believe that a new human life is not formed at conception?

Here are some people with actual educations that disagree with you:

Dr. Alfred M. Bongioanni, professor of pediatrics and obstetrics at the University of Pennsylvania, stated:"I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence from conception to adulthood and that any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes a termination of human life…. I am no more prepared to say that these early stages [of development in the womb] represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty…is not a human being. This is human life at every stage.”

Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris, was the discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome. He said: “after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being.” He stated that this “is no longer a matter of taste or opinion,” and “not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.” He added, “Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception.”

Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic: “By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception.”

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School: “It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive…. It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception…. Our laws, one function of which is to help preserve the lives of our people, should be based on accurate scientific data.”

Dr. Watson A. Bowes, University of Colorado Medical School: “The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter—the beginning is conception. This straightforward biological fact should not be distorted to serve sociological, political, or economic goals.”

Ashley Montague, a geneticist and professor at Harvard and Rutgers, is unsympathetic to the prolife cause. Nevertheless, he affirms unequivocally, “The basic fact is simple: life begins not at birth, but conception.

Douglas, you have provided nothing but your opinions. You cannot point to science, you cannot point to the Bible, you cannot point to anyone for support of your opinion.

When there is virtually total immobility as is necessarily the case in the womb, then it is OBVIOUS there is no autonomous mobile organism there!
You're right. It's also true that my car is white. The fetus in the womb is certainly in a very confined, dark space. But hey, so is my 15 month old every time I put him in his crib to go to bed at night. This statement doesn't mean that there is not a human being in the womb. All it means is that the human being in the womb is fairly immobile at that stage of development.

So it's not logical to think that "generally speaking" a human being should be capable of peeing, or at least consist of some flesh and blood?
Not at its earliest stage of development, no. Humans are capable of different actions at different stages of life.

Two cells united into one that is not even visible to the naked eye? That is WHAT THE PINNACLE OF OF GOD'S IMMENSE CREATION IS, in your view?
It is certainly the beginning of the pinnacle of God's immense creation. It's the first stage. Human life can be tracked through many stages. Zygote --> Embryo --> Fetus --> New Born --> Infant --> Toddler --> etc etc... Different stages of the human being. But still a human being at all stage nevertheless.

what do you make of THE CONTRADICTION in what you said that I pointed out?
If you took the time to read the entirety of the essay you would (or at least should be able to, I am giving you at least middle school intelligence credit here) see that there is not in fact a contradiction.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: -V-
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.