The "Jesus" we accept, MUST be "PREACHED".

danny ski · Aug 30, 2017

gadar perets said:
If you are going to bring into question the validity of the Greek copies, then you should do the same for the Hebrew copies. We do not have David's original text of Psalm 110. We just trust it was copied faithfully.

The issue, based on the Greek text, is not whether or not the Jews understood the difference between Adonai and adoni. I am sure Yeshua used "adoni" when he spoke to the Jews in Matthew 22:41-46. The Greek copies use κυρίῳ μου which is exactly as it appears in the Septuagint. What matters is how the Hebrew renders Psalm 110:1. It is not doubt "adoni" meaning "my lord."

Yeshua knew the Jews believed Messiah was the son of David and they admitted as much.
Yeshua also knew they did not know how Messiah was David's son and David's lord which is why he asked the question in verse 45. He seized the opportunity to teach them the true interpretation of Psalm 110:1 as referring to Messiah, not David or anyone else. The modern Jewish interpretation that "my lord" refers to David is false. If you are going to argue Matthew 22:41-46 is based on speculation because we can't trust the Greek copies, then we can't trust the Hebrew copies either. We might as well throw out the entire Bible since it is all based on copies.

Do not let the false Christian and Jewish interpretations sway you from understanding the truth of Psalm 110:1. Accept that Yeshua's words were handed down correctly and that "my lord" refers to David's lord, Messiah.

I'm not going to argue anything, as you said- he taught them "true" interpretation. But, that is all it is, his interpretation. They had at least three others. Therefore to state that they were stymied is unlikely, if you ever discussed the scripture with Israelites. It's not the content that makes this conversation a work of fiction, it's the conversation itself.

Dartman · Aug 30, 2017

JoeP222w said:
Recommended reading: "The Forgotten Trinity" by James R. White.

Please summarize a couple of the strongest points.

Dartman · Aug 30, 2017

JoeP222w said:
Actually it is. If one denies the Trinity, they do not know God. If one does not know God, they do not have eternal life.

I agree with the principle you express. Disagreement regarding the definition of God is crucial! (1 Kings 18, Heb 11:6)
Your selection of an entirely man-made "God", the trinity, eliminates the trinitarian from accepting "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", from accepting the God of the Jews that Jesus worshipped (John 4:22)

Dartman · Aug 30, 2017

JoeP222w said:
1 Corinthians 2:9-11 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"— (10) these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. (11) For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

God's spirit reveals God. The passage you quoted doesn't prove your point.... even though you carefully selected the most slanted translation in your attempt.

JoeP222w said:
Dartman said:

Jehovah/YHVH God, the ONLY true God.

Click to expand...

The Trinity does not deny this.

Another example of trinitarian double talk.
This is simple.
ONLY the Father can be Jehovah, since Jehovah states HE is the source of Jesus' words, and Jesus states both that his Father IS the source, and that Jesus is NOT.

Dartman · Aug 30, 2017

JoeP222w said:
gadar perets said:

Others would say if one believes the trinity, they do not know God.

Click to expand...

Understood and they would be wrong. Not because I say so, but because the Bible says so.

No, it doesn't. In fact, the Bible states clearly, the only "Jesus" we should accept, is the "Jesus" actually preached by the apostles (2 Cor 11:3,4). There isn't a single example in the Bible, of a trinitarian 'Jesus" being explained to a single audience .... EVER!!

Dartman · Aug 30, 2017

danny ski said:
How am I biased? Are you saying that there are transcripts of the actual conversations? That's quite a revelation. As for them being stymied, the conversation in question makes a perfect sense... if it was conducted in English or Greek. In Hebrew or Aramaic, not so much. I'm pretty sure that they knew the difference between Adonai and adoni and how to read their own scripture. Don't know about other exchanges, but this one never happened.

LOL ... you ask "How am I biased", and then clarify your own bias. Your disrespect for the text is blatant.
Your rationalizations are canceled by the Scriptures.

JoeP222w · Aug 30, 2017

Dartman said:
Please summarize a couple of the strongest points.

Definition of the Trinity:

Within the one being that is God, there exists 3 coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Being and person are not the same thing. A rock has a being, but a rock is not a person.

The "being" of God is what God is, His nature, His essence, His attributes.
The "persons" of God is who God is, His will, His character, His nature, His desires, His likes, His dislikes.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are in perfect unity and harmonious agreement.

God is Monotheistic (one being). God is three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). God is three persons in one being.

God is not 1 being in 3 beings.
God is not 3 beings in 1 being.
God is not 1 person in 3 persons.
God is not 3 persons in 1 person.

The Father is not the Son (in personhood), nor is the Father the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father, nor is the Son the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit the Son.

God is not 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 since God is not divisible. The Father is fully God. The Son is fully God. The Holy Spirit is fully God. All 3 persons of the Trinity have eternally existed.

The Son submits the Father in role and relationship. The Holy Spirit submits to the Son and the Father in role and relationship. However, difference in function and role does not indicate inferiority in nature and being.

3 foundational truths of the Trinity.

1. Monotheistic.
2. 3 Divine persons.
3. The 3 person have eternally existed.

Covers many passages from the Bible demonstrating the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Covers what the early church understood of the Trinity.

And much more.

JoeP222w · Aug 30, 2017

Dartman said:
Your selection of an entirely man-made "God", the trinity, eliminates the trinitarian from accepting "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", from accepting the God of the Jews that Jesus worshipped

You have asserted, but have not refuted the Trinity. Or how the Trinity is only "man-made".

JoeP222w · Aug 30, 2017

Dartman said:
No, it doesn't. In fact, the Bible states clearly, the only "Jesus" we should accept, is the "Jesus" actually preached by the apostles (2 Cor 11:3,4). There isn't a single example in the Bible, of a trinitarian 'Jesus" being explained to a single audience .... EVER!!

Recommend you read the book I suggested.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Aug 30, 2017

JoeP222w said:
They are not 3 separate beings, and the Trinity doctrine does not teach that they are 3 separate beings.

a person is a being though

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Aug 30, 2017

JoeP222w said:
And you have demonstrated one of the fundamental errors of those who oppose the Trinity. Being is not the same as person. A rock has a "being" but a rock is not a "person".

The doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that there are 3 "Beings" of God (nor 3 Gods). The Trinity is 3 Persons in 1 Being.

being=existence of a person/state of existence essentially

the trinity teachest there are 3 beings/persons inside 1 God

That they are all God to establish this co-equal concept but not each other...which means they are 3 seperate beings/persons they can't be the same being/person if they aren't each other.

danny ski · Aug 30, 2017

LOL! I

Dartman said:
LOL ... you ask "How am I biased", and then clarify your own bias. Your disrespect for the text is blatant.
Your rationalizations are canceled by the Scriptures.

Lol, indeed. I didn't clarify anything, I asked you a question about a conversation that never happened and I mentioned why that is so. Apparently, that's a bias. Since blind faith is not my thing, I will exit this pointless conversation. All the best.

Robban · Aug 30, 2017

gadar perets said:
Jews put forth all sorts of interpretations all with the intent of avoiding the truth that it refers to Messiah. Jews for Judaism say it refers to David as does Tovia Singer. Others say it refers to Hezekiah. You say Abraham. All false interpretations since Yeshua said it refers to Messiah.

Well, it was not so much an interpretation, more an introduction to the Psalm itself.

Can be taken as a response by Eliezer, Abrahams servant,
when asked how Abraham managed to defeat the four kings and their armies.

There is no intent on avoiding anything,

Haha, to say false interpretation is makes it sound like we are out to con people.

Now if I were to spray a sparrow yellow and sell it to you as a canary,

you may have some backing. Haha.

JoeP222w · Aug 30, 2017

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
a person is a being though

True, but not all "beings" are "persons". A rock is a "being" (has existence), but a rock is not a "person".

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
the trinity teachest there are 3 beings/persons inside 1 God

Not true. You are confusing "being" and "person" as the same thing. They are not. The doctrine of the Trinity teaches that there are 3 "persons" in one "being". Not 3 "beings" in one "being", nor 3 "persons" in one "person". You are confusing terms.

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
That they are all God to establish this co-equal concept but not each other...which means they are 3 seperate beings/persons they can't be the same being/person if they aren't each other.

Again, you have error in thinking that "being" and "person" are the same thing.

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Aug 30, 2017

JoeP222w said:
True, but not all "beings" are "persons". A rock is a "being" (has existence), but a rock is not a "person".

Not true. You are confusing "being" and "person" as the same thing. They are not. The doctrine of the Trinity teaches that there are 3 "persons" in one "being". Not 3 "beings" in one "being", nor 3 "persons" in one "person". You are confusing terms.

Again, you have error in thinking that "being" and "person" are the same thing.

based off the definition for being i'm not sure how it wouldn't apply to 3 persons.

Why isn't a person a being in the context of the trinity especially since there are 3 of them.

Truth Seeker81 · Aug 30, 2017

Hi guys, this thread brings up points about the man made Trinity that I discuss in my website I fairly recently created.

In the website (study of the trinity), I tried to break down some of these exact same talking points into easy to read bits. Please read the website in its entirety, from beginning to end and I think you will see that a lot of what is being discussed (and has not been discussed) is explained in the website.

I used Scripture (often the original Hebrew and Greek Texts) to back up what was being said.

Please review the website now in its entirety and tell me what you think.

Dartman · Aug 30, 2017

JoeP222w said:
Definition of the Trinity:

Within the one being that is God, there exists 3 coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

This theory is NEVER ... EVER ... explained in Scripture. It contradicts the plain and simple statements of Scripture, and secondarily, is illogical.
Being and person are not the same thing. A rock has a being, but a rock is not a person.[/quote]You are confusing the STATE of being/existing, with the definition of: "a being". A rock is NOT "a being".

JoeP222w said:
The "being" of God is what God is, His nature, His essence, His attributes.
The "persons" of God is who God is, His will, His character, His nature, His desires, His likes, His dislikes.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are in perfect unity and harmonious agreement.

God is Monotheistic (one being). God is three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). God is three persons in one being.

God is not 1 being in 3 beings.
God is not 3 beings in 1 being.
God is not 1 person in 3 persons.
God is not 3 persons in 1 person.

The Father is not the Son (in personhood), nor is the Father the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father, nor is the Son the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit the Son.

God is not 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 since God is not divisible. The Father is fully God. The Son is fully God. The Holy Spirit is fully God. All 3 persons of the Trinity have eternally existed.

The Son submits the Father in role and relationship. The Holy Spirit submits to the Son and the Father in role and relationship. However, difference in function and role does not indicate inferiority in nature and being.

3 foundational truths of the Trinity.

1. Monotheistic.
2. 3 Divine persons.
3. The 3 person have eternally existed.

Covers many passages from the Bible demonstrating the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Covers what the early church understood of the Trinity.

And much more.

More trinitarian double speak.

Both illogical, and MUCH more importantly, contradicts Scripture.

Dartman · Aug 30, 2017

JoeP222w said:
Dartman said:

No, it doesn't. In fact, the Bible states clearly, the only "Jesus" we should accept, is the "Jesus" actually preached by the apostles (2 Cor 11:3,4). There isn't a single example in the Bible, of a trinitarian 'Jesus" being explained to a single audience .... EVER!!

Click to expand...

Recommend you read the book I suggested.

I recommend you stick with the book I am quoting.

Dartman · Aug 30, 2017

danny ski said:
LOL! I

Lol, indeed. I didn't clarify anything, I asked you a question about a conversation that never happened and I mentioned why that is so. Apparently, that's a bias. Since blind faith is not my thing, I will exit this pointless conversation. All the best.

If you aren't going to respect the authority of Scripture, we have no common ground.

Dartman · Aug 30, 2017

JoeP222w said:
True, but not all "beings" are "persons". A rock is a "being" (has existence), but a rock is not a "person".

A rock is NOT "a being". A rock exists, it is in a STATE of "being".

Jehovah/YHVH God is "The Being"... LXX Ex 3:14

The "Jesus" we accept, MUST be "PREACHED".

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