FreeGrace2

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Most of your arguments fall flat in my opinion.
You've done nothing to explain your opinion. I've given actual Scripture to show WHY I believe what I do. You've not done anything close to that.

It seems to me that you are trying hard to fit the scriptures to your prior beliefs rather than the other way around.
Ha. It wasn't hard at all. It's all there in black and white in your own Bible.

But you've already dismissed the 6 examples of election from the Bible. That's the problem.

I think that anyone following our posts would agree with me on that.
Truth is never based on democracy.

But for now at least we can simply agree to disagree.
That will always be the case.

But I provided evidence for my views. You did not.
 
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Marvin Knox

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You've done nothing to explain your opinion. I've given actual Scripture to show WHY I believe what I do. You've not done anything close to that......I provided evidence for my views. You did not.........................Ha. It wasn't hard at all. It's all there in black and white in your own Bible.
My proof is in the scriptures we have been looking at from Thess. and Eph. - not to mention a host of others.

They say what they clearly say. It's incumbent on you to show why they don't. You have not proven your case.
But you've already dismissed the 6 examples of election from the Bible. That's the problem.
Not at all.

I looked them over very carefully. You left one category out - election and predestination unto salvation.

It's there for you to see. IMO - you have to work hard to get around it. Even after all your work your explanations still don't fly that I can see.
 
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FreeGrace2

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My proof is in the scriptures we have been looking at from Thess. and Eph. - not to mention a host of others.
Nothing has been shown in either of those epistles that support your claim.

They say what they clearly say.
Yes, they do.

It's incumbent on you to show why they don't. You have not proven your case.
I did. With Scripture.

Not at all.
The 6 examples of election FROM SCRIPTURE support my position, not yours. But you dismissed the 6 examples without commented on even one of them.

I looked them over very carefully. You left one category out - election and predestination unto salvation.
I left nothing out. Please provide the verses that specifically and plainly say anyone is elected (eklogomai) to salvation and predestined to salvation because I don't believe there are any.

It's there for you to see.
Then show me. Even though I'm not from MO.

IMO - you have to work hard to get around it. Even after all your work your explanations still don't fly that I can see.
One only has to have their eyes open to see it. Some just don't want to see it, just like Arminians who refuse to see the clear teaching of eternal security in Scripture.
 
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Butch5

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The doctrine of election and worries over assurance of salvation have troubled me for years. I heard that if you aren't one of the elect you wouldn't worry about whether you were or not?

I've accepted Christ but still worry I am not elect?

Since you've chosen to follow Christ you've become one of the elect.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Butch5 said:
Since you've chosen to follow Christ you've become one of the elect.
"You have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you...."

What about this do you not understand?
Since believers are encouraged to "remain true to the Lord and faith" from Acts 11:23 and 14:22, what's not to understand about the fact that believers do make a choice to follow Christ.

btw, no one is saved by following Christ. They are saved by believing in Him.

If following Christ is an automatic or guaranteed action of a believer, then why the commands to imitate Christ, to be Christ-like?

Kinda like commanding someone to breathe. It's automatic, and we don't need such commands.

But following Christ does require a choice.
 
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Jack Terrence

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Butch5 said:
Since you've chosen to follow Christ you've become one of the elect.

Since believers are encouraged to "remain true to the Lord and faith" from Acts 11:23 and 14:22, what's not to understand about the fact that believers do make a choice to follow Christ.

btw, no one is saved by following Christ. They are saved by believing in Him.

If following Christ is an automatic or guaranteed action of a believer, then why the commands to imitate Christ, to be Christ-like?

Kinda like commanding someone to breathe. It's automatic, and we don't need such commands.

But following Christ does require a choice.
Butch5 said:
Since you've chosen to follow Christ you've become one of the elect.

Since believers are encouraged to "remain true to the Lord and faith" from Acts 11:23 and 14:22, what's not to understand about the fact that believers do make a choice to follow Christ.

btw, no one is saved by following Christ. They are saved by believing in Him.

If following Christ is an automatic or guaranteed action of a believer, then why the commands to imitate Christ, to be Christ-like?

Kinda like commanding someone to breathe. It's automatic, and we don't need such commands.

But following Christ does require a choice.
You read too much into what I said as you read too much into the scriptures. Jesus NEVER said, "You have chosen me." He said, "You have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you." He called them to abide in him on the basis that he chose them, not on the basis that they chose him. Why don't you retire? You aren't going to change anyone's mind. Do you really think that Christ wants you to spend so much time here being argumentative?
 
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FreeGrace2

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You read too much into what I said as you read too much into the scriptures.
No, I read the Scriptures.

Jesus NEVER said, "You have chosen me." He said, "You have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you." He called them to abide in him on the basis that he chose them, not on the basis that they chose him.
Obviously you missed my point. By NOT reading enough into my post. Skimming over a post in eagerness to reply only leads one astray.

A believer is commanded to be Christ-like, to "put on the new man". This is a choice, whether you like it or not.

But, regarding election, the Calvinist view is incorrect. Jesus chose NO ONE for salvation. Neither does God. People are chosen for service, and Jesus chose Judas for just that purpose.

Why don't you retire? You aren't going to change anyone's mind.
Why do you think that's my point? My point is to defend truth. Even though many don't like it.

Do you really think that Christ wants you to spend so much time here being argumentative?
Have you never argued with any Arminians? Why don't you retire?
 
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Ron Gurley

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ZERO = 0 Bible results for “Elect of God.” in the NASB....a false doctrine...Calvin

Matthew 24 uses "elect"(eklektos) more than in any other passages. Start there.
The "elect" is ALL of the "John 3 explained in Ephesians 2" ...spiritually changed believers...the "saints"!

the elect...Greek 1588... eklektos...
i.to obtain salvation THROUGH Christ..a.(ALL Christ followers aka) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
ii.the (DIVINE) Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable

Romans 8:33
Who will bring a charge against "God's elect"? God is the one who justifies;

At salvation, SPIRITUAL POSITION IN RELATIONSHIP TO GOD...CHANGES! Back to: "John 3 explained in Ephesians 2"

Romans 8 (NASB)[Deliverance from Bondage]
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus. (spiritual POSITION NOT JUDGED!)
For the law of the Spirit of life "IN Christ Jesus" has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
For what the (Mosaic) Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did:
sending His own Son in the "likeness" of sinful flesh (yet sinless!)
and as an (voluntary) offering FOR sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

John 5:24..“Truly, truly, I say to you,
he who hears My word, and BELIEVES Him who sent Me, has eternal life,
and does NOT come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 11:27
She (Martha, sister of Lazarus) said to Him,(Jesus)
“Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God,
even He who comes into the world.” (from heaven = DEITY)
 
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sdowney717

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"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned." - Martin Luther

Double Or Nothing: Martin Luther's Doctrine of Predestination by Brian G. Mattson

The elect of God are elect before they have been born, not having done anything good or evil, so elect must mean then chosen of God for salvation, this here is scriptural proof. As Esau God hated, but Jacob God loved.
Esau was destroyed, and the blessing went to Jacob, because God had predetermined what He desired to come to pass, God chose Jacob and rejected Esau before their births.

The result is evident in the lives of these 2 persons.
One was a fornicating profane person, caused grief to his parents, despised his birthright and the other was different and served the Lord.

Romans 9
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
 
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Jack Terrence

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I understand that Jesus said that to some that He conversed with, not the writer of the OP.
Correct. But it is anecdotal evidence still. And there is no evidence anecdotal nor didactic which says that we chose him too.
 
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Butch5

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Correct. But it is anecdotal evidence still. And there is no evidence anecdotal nor didactic which says that we chose him too.
That's irrelevant, He wasn't talking to us. He was talking to those Jews that were there. You're taking a statement that was made in history and applying it universally which is unwarranted.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Correct. But it is anecdotal evidence still. And there is no evidence anecdotal nor didactic which says that we chose him too.
One must prove that to believe in Him isn't a choice.

Here's some evidence to help one understand:
Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
 
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shakewell

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The doctrine of election and worries over assurance of salvation have troubled me for years. I heard that if you aren't one of the elect you wouldn't worry about whether you were or not?

I've accepted Christ but still worry I am not elect?
There are many different elections in Scripture. With each occurence of the word (elect, election, chose, chosen, choose, etc.) ask the 6 "w" questions of the text (what, when, who, how, where, why).

Who does the electing (God, mankind, people group, an individual man, etc)?
Who or what is being elected (nation, people group, individual, etc.)?
Elected unto what (earthly role, service, eternal salvation, etc.)?
What criteria is this election based on (past obedience of a patriarch, God's purpose in general, another group's disobedience, foreseen faith, etc.)?

If the answer isn't in the passage, don't invent one; but rather accept the silence of the passage.

If you've accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your own personal Savior, none of the election passages in Scripture are of any threat to your eternal security.
 
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thetruth0

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The doctrine of election and worries over assurance of salvation have troubled me for years. I heard that if you aren't one of the elect you wouldn't worry about whether you were or not?

I've accepted Christ but still worry I am not elect?
This is what the Elect will do.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day

This is not the Communion of eating a wafer and drinking juice, that is a ritual. This is eating the WORD of GOD that is dispensed by the Son of Man.

Thus, if you don't do this then you cannot be one of the elect. The following passages proves this.

Malachi 4
4.Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Acts 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

The elect are the ones that do as these verses are saying.
 
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Sea Horse

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The doctrine of election and worries over assurance of salvation have troubled me for years. I heard that if you aren't one of the elect you wouldn't worry about whether you were or not?

I've accepted Christ but still worry I am not elect?

Elect can be Jews , they were elected out of all nations to proclaim Messiah to whole world when he come .
Elect does not mean saved , Jews go to hell for not accepting Christ just like atheist or hindu .

You are sealed with Holy Spirit Ephesians 1:13-14 , Ephesians 2:8-9 , after you hear gospel and beleive in it 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 . Since you have literally living God inside of you , he can't go to hell and burn forever so you can't go to hell aswell. For you only your bad works or good works will be tested by fire not yourself 1 Corinthians 3:15
 
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sdowney717

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Elect can be Jews , they were elected out of all nations to proclaim Messiah to whole world when he come .
Elect does not mean saved , Jews go to hell for not accepting Christ just like atheist or hindu .

You are sealed with Holy Spirit Ephesians 1:13-14 , Ephesians 2:8-9 , after you hear gospel and beleive in it 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 . Since you have literally living God inside of you , he can't go to hell and burn forever so you can't go to hell aswell. For you only your bad works or good works will be tested by fire not yourself 1 Corinthians 3:15
All elect must believe and be sealed, that is true.
But none of them who are reprobate, (non-elect) will ever believe in Christ in this life on earth.

You are elect before you are born again, if you are saved you were elect to be saved beforehand by God.
God chose us in Him before we were born, that is we were elected to become the saved.
All His people are elected and serve God, there are no believers who do not serve God.
 
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sdowney717

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So I am worrying over nothing?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
A sure sign of your salvation is that you believe in Christ.
Because God has done a work in you.
He never just leaves you there though, you will continue to believe and learn of His ways.
He will discipline you also if you are His, if you commit sins, but He will never leave or forsake you in Spirit. God's grace and Love is expressed towards US, so this is active not a passive thing.

You are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be shown at the last time.
Meaning at the end of the age, on the Last Day, Christ will raise you up in the age of the resurrection to live forever with Him.

God manifests His power in you by giving you the gift of faithfulness, this is one of the gifts of the Spirit.

1 Peter 1

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


http://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/2_thessalonians/2.htm
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

13. Nos autem debemus gratias agere Deo semper de vobis, fratres dilecti a Domino, quia elegit vos Deus ab initio in salutem, in sanctificatione Spiritus, et fide veritatis:

14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

14. Quo vocavit vos per evangelium nostrum, in possessionem gloriae (vel, gloriosam) Domini nostri Iesu Christi.



13 But we are bound to give thanks. He now separates more openly the Thessalonians from the reprobate, that their faith may not waver from fear of the revolt that was to take place. At the same time, he had it in view to consult, not their welfare only, but also that of posterity. [684] And he does not merely confirm them that they may not fall over the same precipice with the world, but by this comparison he extols the more the grace of God towards them, in that, while they see almost the whole world hurried forward to death at the same time, as if by a violent tempest, they are, by the hand of God, maintained in a quiet and secure condition of life. [685] Thus we must contemplate the Judgments of God upon the reprobate in such a way that they may be, as it were, mirrors to us for considering his mercy towards us. For we must draw this conclusion, that it is owing solely to the singular grace of God that we do not miserably perish with them.

He calls them beloved of the Lord, for this reason, that they may the better consider that the sole reason why they are exempted from the almost universal overthrow of the world, was because God exercised towards them unmerited love. Thus Moses admonished the Jews --

"God did not elevate you so magnificently because ye were more powerful than others, or were numerous, but because he loved your fathers." (Deuteronomy 7:7-8.)

For, when we hear the term love, that statement of John must immediately occur to our mind -- Not that we first loved him. (1 John 4:19.) In short, Paul here does two things; for he confirms faith, lest the pious should give way from being overcome with fear, and he exhorts them to gratitude, that they may value so much the higher the mercy of God towards them.

Hath chosen you. He states the reason why all are not involved and swallowed up in the same ruin -- because Satan has no power over any that God has chosen, so as to prevent them from being saved, though heaven and earth were to be confounded. This passage is read in various ways.

The old interpreter has rendered it first-fruits, [686] as being in the Greek aparchen; but as almost all the Greek manuscripts have ap' archos, I have in preference followed this reading. Should any one prefer first-fruits, the meaning will be, that believers have been, as it were, set aside for a sacred offering, by a metaphor taken from the ancient custom of the law. Let us, however, hold by what is more generally received, that he says that the Thessalonians were chosen from the beginning

Some understand the meaning to be, that they had been called among the first; but this is foreign to Paul's meaning, and does not accord with the connection of the passage. For he does not merely exempt from fear a few individuals, who had been led to Christ immediately on the commencement of the gospel, but this consolation belongs to all the elect of God, without exception. When, therefore, he says from the beginning, he means that there is no danger lest their salvation, which is founded on God's eternal election, should be overthrown, whatever tumultuous changes may occur. "However Satan may mix and confound all things in the world, your salvation, notwithstanding, has been placed on a footing of safety, prior to the creation of the world." Here, therefore, is the true port of safety, that God, who elected us of old, [687] will deliver us from all the evils that threaten us. For we are elected to salvation; we shall, therefore, be safe from destruction. But as it is not for us to penetrate into God's secret counsel, to seek there assurance of our salvation, he specifies signs or tokens of election, which should suffice us for the assurance of it.

In sanctification of the spirit, says he, and belief of the truth. This may be explained in two ways, with sanctification, or by sanctification. It is not of much importance which of the two you select, as it is certain [688] that Paul meant simply to introduce, in connection with election, those nearer tokens which manifest to us what is in its own nature incomprehensible, and are conjoined with it by an indissoluble tie. Hence, in order that we may know that we are elected by God, there is no occasion to inquire as to what he decreed before the creation of the world, but we find in ourselves a satisfactory proof if he has sanctified us by his Spirit, -- if he has enlightened us in the faith of his gospel. For the gospel is an evidence to us of our adoption, and the Spirit seals it, and those that are led by the Spirit are the sons of God, (Romans 8:14,) and he who by faith possesses Christ has everlasting life. (1 John 5:12.) These things must be carefully observed, lest, overlooking the revelation of God's will, with which he bids us rest satisfied, we should plunge into a profound labyrinth from a desire to take it from his secret counsel, from the investigation of which he draws us aside. Hence it becomes us to rest satisfied with the faith of the gospel, and that grace of the Spirit by which we have been regenerated. And by this means is refuted the wickedness [689] of those who make the election of God a pretext for every kind of iniquity, while Paul connects it with faith and regeneration in such a manner, that he would not have it judged of by us on any other grounds.

14 To which he called us. He repeats the same thing, though in somewhat different terms. For the sons of God are not called otherwise than to the belief of the truth. Paul, however, meant to shew here how competent a witness he is for confirming that thing of which he was a minister. He accordingly puts himself forward as a surety, that the Thessalonians may not doubt that the gospel, in which they had been instructed by him, is the safety-bringing voice of God, by which they are aroused from death, and are delivered from the tyranny of Satan. He calls it his gospel, not as though it had originated with him, [690] but inasmuch as the preaching of it had been committed to him.

What he adds, to the acquisition or possession of the glory of Christ, may be taken either in an active or in a passive signification -- either as meaning, that they are called in order that they may one day possess a glory in common with Christ, or that Christ acquired them with a view to his glory. And thus it will be a second means of confirmation that he will defend them, as being nothing less than his own inheritance, and, in maintaining their salvation, will stand forward in defense of his own glory; which latter meaning, in my opinion, suits better.

Footnotes:

[684] "Mais aussi pour les autres fideles, qui viendroyent apres;" -- "But also for other believers, who should come after."

[685] "En vn estat ferme et paisible, qui mene a la vie;" -- "In a secure and peaceable condition, which leads to life."

[686] Primitias. Wiclif (1380) following, as he is wont, the reading of the Vulgate, renders it "the first fruytis."

[687] "Des le commencement;" -- "From the beginning."

[688] "S. Paul ne vent autre chose, sinon apres auoir parl? de l'election de Dieu, adiouster maintenant des signes plus prochains qui nous la manifestent;" -- "St. Paul means simply, after having spoken of the election of God, to add now those nearer tokens which manifest it to us."

[689] "La meschancete horrible;" -- "The horrible wickedness."

[690] "Non pas qu'il soit creu en son cerueau;" -- "Not as though it had been contrived in his brain."
 
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