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FutureAndAHope

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Any thoughts on this passage. I was reading the scriptures and came across an interesting passage in Job. I know there are some places in the bible where the earth is said to be flat, but have a look at how God describes the earth and sun to job.

Job 38:12-14 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

The verse above seems to be talking about the sun, "that it might take hold of the ends of the earth", it goes on to say "It is turned as clay to the seal (signet ring); and they stand as a garment".

The verse seems to say the sun rotates like clay on a potters wheel (ring), and the earth is like an outer garment to it. This fits with how the sun actually is, it rotates and the planets form an outer ring around it.

However another way to look at it is that if "it" referred to the earth, then it says the earth rotates, and the sun and moon form a warm covering to the earth as the earth rotates.

Which ever way you look at it, God speaks of rotation, not a still flat earth.
 
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A_Thinker

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Any thoughts on this passage. I was reading the scriptures and came across an interesting passage in Job. I know there are some places in the bible where the earth is said to be flat, but have a look at how God describes the earth and sun to job.

Job 38:12-14 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

The verse above seems to be talking about the sun, "that it might take hold of the ends of the earth", it goes on to say "It is turned as clay to the seal (signet ring); and they stand as a garment".

The verse seems to say the sun rotates like clay on a potters wheel (ring), and the earth is like an outer garment to it. This fits with how the sun actually is, it rotates and the planets form an outer ring around it.

However another way to look at it is that if "it" referred to the earth, then it says the earth rotates, and the sun and moon form a warm covering to the earth as the earth rotates.

Which ever way you look at it, God speaks of rotation, not a still flat earth.

Pretty metaphoric language, if you ask me. I don't know if I could stretch it to get to your proposed interpretation ...

OTOH, I don't know of anywhere where the scriptures say that the earth is flat, ... and the following indicates something a little different ...

Isaiah 40:22 God sits above the circle of the earth.

The people below seem like grasshoppers to him!

He spreads out the heavens like a curtain

and makes his tent from them.
 
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Papias

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Job 38:12-14 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? ..... "that it might take hold of the ends of the earth",

This fits a flat earth pretty well. After all, a flat disc has ends/edges, while a sphere has no "ends".

Job 38:12-14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

NIV:The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.

It says "clay stamped by a seal" - it's hard to get much flatter than that. That flatness is reiterated in the next part, because a garment (cloth) is flat too.

Here are some ancient seals used to stamp clay flat, leaving their impression on it.

09050215g.jpg


The verse seems to say the sun rotates like clay on a potters wheel (ring), and the earth is like an outer garment to it. This fits with how the sun actually is, it rotates and the planets form an outer ring around it.

However another way to look at it is that if "it" referred to the earth, then it says the earth rotates, and the sun and moon form a warm covering to the earth as the earth rotates.

Which ever way you look at it, God speaks of rotation, not a still flat earth.

There is nothing about a ring, rotation, potters wheel, nor planets in the passage. I'm sorry I don't see any of what you are seeing here.


OTOH, I don't know of anywhere where the scriptures say that the earth is flat, ... and the following indicates something a little different ...

Isaiah 40:22 God sits above the circle of the earth.
The people below seem like grasshoppers to him!
He spreads out the heavens like a curtain
and makes his tent from them.

That clearly describes a flat earth - a flat disk with a domed "sky" above it. You can't spread a tent over a sphere - but easily can over a disk. "Circle" means "circular disk", which is flat, according to the Hebrew word used.

I know there are some places in the bible where the earth is said to be flat,

Yes, the ancient Hebrew cosmology of a flat earth under a hard dome is repeated over and over in the Bibles, which has been accepted by Christians from the start all the way up through Martin Luther, and is obvious to modern Bible Scholars as well. In fact, we celebrate this flat earth view every December, because the whole "Star of Bethelehem" story only makes sense with this 'hard dome above us' view. Here (from before) are just some of the places were this is clear:

Flat Earth-

Bible tells us that the earth is flat like a piece of clay stamped under a seal (Job 38:13-14), that it has edges as only a flat plane would (Job 38:13-14,.Psa 19:4), is set on a foundation, like a table (2Sm 22:16, Ps 18:15, 102:25, Pr 8:27-29, Is 48:13), has a length as only a flat plane would (Dan 4:11, Job 11:9, Job 28:24, Job 37:3, Job 38:13, Job 38:44, Jrm 16:19), that it is a circular disk (Isa 40:22), and that its entire surface can be seen from a high tree (Dan 4:10-11) heaven (Job 28:24) or mountain (Matt 4:8) or which is impossible for a sphere, but possible for a flat disk. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, any one of these passages shows a flat earth. Taken together, they are even more clear. And many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

Geocentrism-

The Bible describes the earth as unmovable, set on a foundation of either pillars in water (1 Sam 2:8, 1 Chr 16:30, Job 9:6, 38:4, Psa 24:1-2, 75:s3, 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 136:6). It also tells us that, although the earth does not move, the sun and stars do move about it (Josh 10:12, Psa 19:4-6, 50:1, Ecc 1:5 (note “returns”, not perspective), Hab 3:11). And that the stars could be dropped down onto the earth like fruit falling from a tree (Rev. 6:13). Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show geocentrism. And Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

We live in a Planetarium-
The Bible describes the sky (firmament -- literally "metal bowl made by a hammer"- Gen 1:6-8, 1:14-17) as a solid dome, like a tent (Isa 40:22, Psa 19:4, 104:2, Pr 8:27-29, Ezk 1:26), that is arched over the surface of the earth. It also has windows to let rain/snow in (Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12, 2 Kings 7:2, Job 37:18, Mal 3:10, Rev 4:1). Ezekiel 1:22 and Job 37:18even tell us that it's hard like bronze and sparkles like ice, that God walks on it (Job 22:14) and can be removed (Rev 6:14). Ex 24:10 suggests that it is like sapphire. Joshua 10:12estimates how far the Sun and Moon are from Earth’s surface. The Sun was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Gibeon, and the Moon was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Aijalon, showing that one wasn’t sufficient for both valleys (too close). So some basic trigonometry shows that they are therefore at a roughly similar height as the valleys are from each other – which is around 20 miles. Similarly, the whole Star of Bethlehem story in Mt (where a star designates a single house) makes no sense if stars are millions of miles across, but makes perfect sense if the stars are little lights hanging from a dome above us. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show a solid sky above us. And again, Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

Here is a good explanation of this by a well known and respected Bible scholar, who reflects the view of practically all open bible scholars. In fact, the reality that the Bibles describe a flat earth, under a hard dome, underwater, is so well accepted among clergy and Bible scholars that it's taught in most seminaries. Ask your pastor - he'll probably confirm it too.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Just had a closer look at the passage, and it probably does not support my circular view. It seems to be saying:

Job 38:14 It is turnedH2015 as clayH2563 to the seal;H2368 and they standH3320 asH3644 a garment.H3830

It is changed as clay under a seal, and they stand as a garment.

It seems to be talking about how the sun changes the appearance of the landscape as it rises. See:

Job 38:14 Early dawn outlines the hills like stitches on clothing or sketches on clay.

So it neither supports a flat earth, nor a circular one.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Bible tells us that the earth is flat like a piece of clay stamped under a seal (Job 38:13-14), that it has edges as only a flat plane would (Job 38:13-14,.Psa 19:4), is set on a foundation, like a table (2Sm 22:16, Ps 18:15, 102:25, Pr 8:27-29, Is 48:13), has a length as only a flat plane would (Dan 4:11, Job 11:9, Job 28:24, Job 37:3, Job 38:13, Job 38:44, Jrm 16:19), that it is a circular disk (Isa 40:22), and that its entire surface can be seen from a high tree (Dan 4:10-11) heaven (Job 28:24) or mountain (Matt 4:8) or which is impossible for a sphere, but possible for a flat disk. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, any one of these passages shows a flat earth. Taken together, they are even more clear. And many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

I am going to look in to this piece by piece. But firstly Job 38:14 does not say the earth is stamped flat under a seal, it says the landscape changes as the sun rises to cover it.

Also you need to realise that much of the bible is metaphorical not a science document. But I will look into your other verses.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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CLAIM
--------

"THE BIBLE SAYS THE EARTH IS LIKE A TABLE"

THE FACTS
-------------

I have just research your claim that the bible says the earth is flat like a table. The verses you provided do not show that. They not once mention a table, nor do they say the earth is flat. They speak of beginning/creation, or lower part, what is below. See individual the verses you referenced:



Psa 19:4 Their lineH6957 is gone outH3318 through allH3605 the earth,H776 and their wordsH4405 to the endH7097 of the world.H8398 In them hath he setH7760 a tabernacleH168 for the sun,H8121



H7097 – means end, or out most.



It is not a geographical explanation, it is a verse saying a message has spread to the limit, to the very last place on earth. It is not describing the earth.



2Sm 22:16 mentions nothing of a table, it just says the:


2Sa 22:16 And the channelsH650 of the seaH3220 appeared,H7200 the foundationsH4146 of the worldH8398 were discovered,H1540 at the rebukingH1606 of the LORD,H3068 at the blastH4480 H5397 of the breathH7307 of his nostrils.H639



Not it is also used of the heavens:



2Sa_22:8 Then the earthH776 shookH1607 and trembled;H7493 the foundationsH4146 of heavenH8064 movedH7264 and shook,H1607 becauseH3588 he was wroth.H2734

The foundations just means the lower part. When used of the sky it just says the lower part of the sky lit up.



You mentioned Psalm 18: 15 it uses the same word, nothing of a table is mentioned.



Psa 102:25 Of oldH6440 hast thou laid the foundationH3245 of the earth:H776 and the heavensH8064 are the workH4639 of thy hands.H3027


The word foundation here refers to a founding stone, an establishment, it has to do with the metaphor work of thy hands. It says that the earth is God’s creation, and he is the one who began to build it. This is not a description of the earth.


Pro 8:28 When he establishedH553 the cloudsH7834 above:H4480 H4605 when he strengthenedH5810 the fountainsH5869 of the deep:H8415


This verse seems to be talking about water, the water in the heavens, and the water below the earth’s surface, and in the ocean. Again it does not mention a table like structure.


Isa 48:13 Mine handH3027 alsoH637 hath laid the foundationH3245 of the earth,H776 and my right handH3225 hath spannedH2946 the heavens:H8064 when IH589 callH7121 untoH413 them, they stand upH5975 together.H3162


Again the word foundation here can mean, beginning of the earth, because he is talking about creation. But even if it does not, not one of the references you provided speak of a table like structure. Foundation means what is below. We all know the earth has a foundation, it is its core. So far none of these verses are unscientific.
 
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This fits a flat earth pretty well. After all, a flat disc has ends/edges, while a sphere has no "ends".



NIV:The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.

It says "clay stamped by a seal" - it's hard to get much flatter than that. That flatness is reiterated in the next part, because a garment (cloth) is flat too.

Here are some ancient seals used to stamp clay flat, leaving their impression on it.

09050215g.jpg




There is nothing about a ring, rotation, potters wheel, nor planets in the passage. I'm sorry I don't see any of what you are seeing here.




That clearly describes a flat earth - a flat disk with a domed "sky" above it. You can't spread a tent over a sphere - but easily can over a disk. "Circle" means "circular disk", which is flat, according to the Hebrew word used.



Yes, the ancient Hebrew cosmology of a flat earth under a hard dome is repeated over and over in the Bibles, which has been accepted by Christians from the start all the way up through Martin Luther, and is obvious to modern Bible Scholars as well. In fact, we celebrate this flat earth view every December, because the whole "Star of Bethelehem" story only makes sense with this 'hard dome above us' view. Here (from before) are just some of the places were this is clear:

Flat Earth-

Bible tells us that the earth is flat like a piece of clay stamped under a seal (Job 38:13-14), that it has edges as only a flat plane would (Job 38:13-14,.Psa 19:4), is set on a foundation, like a table (2Sm 22:16, Ps 18:15, 102:25, Pr 8:27-29, Is 48:13), has a length as only a flat plane would (Dan 4:11, Job 11:9, Job 28:24, Job 37:3, Job 38:13, Job 38:44, Jrm 16:19), that it is a circular disk (Isa 40:22), and that its entire surface can be seen from a high tree (Dan 4:10-11) heaven (Job 28:24) or mountain (Matt 4:8) or which is impossible for a sphere, but possible for a flat disk. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, any one of these passages shows a flat earth. Taken together, they are even more clear. And many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

Geocentrism-

The Bible describes the earth as unmovable, set on a foundation of either pillars in water (1 Sam 2:8, 1 Chr 16:30, Job 9:6, 38:4, Psa 24:1-2, 75:s3, 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 136:6). It also tells us that, although the earth does not move, the sun and stars do move about it (Josh 10:12, Psa 19:4-6, 50:1, Ecc 1:5 (note “returns”, not perspective), Hab 3:11). And that the stars could be dropped down onto the earth like fruit falling from a tree (Rev. 6:13). Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show geocentrism. And Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

We live in a Planetarium-
The Bible describes the sky (firmament -- literally "metal bowl made by a hammer"- Gen 1:6-8, 1:14-17) as a solid dome, like a tent (Isa 40:22, Psa 19:4, 104:2, Pr 8:27-29, Ezk 1:26), that is arched over the surface of the earth. It also has windows to let rain/snow in (Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12, 2 Kings 7:2, Job 37:18, Mal 3:10, Rev 4:1). Ezekiel 1:22 and Job 37:18even tell us that it's hard like bronze and sparkles like ice, that God walks on it (Job 22:14) and can be removed (Rev 6:14). Ex 24:10 suggests that it is like sapphire. Joshua 10:12estimates how far the Sun and Moon are from Earth’s surface. The Sun was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Gibeon, and the Moon was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Aijalon, showing that one wasn’t sufficient for both valleys (too close). So some basic trigonometry shows that they are therefore at a roughly similar height as the valleys are from each other – which is around 20 miles. Similarly, the whole Star of Bethlehem story in Mt (where a star designates a single house) makes no sense if stars are millions of miles across, but makes perfect sense if the stars are little lights hanging from a dome above us. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show a solid sky above us. And again, Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

Here is a good explanation of this by a well known and respected Bible scholar, who reflects the view of practically all open bible scholars. In fact, the reality that the Bibles describe a flat earth, under a hard dome, underwater, is so well accepted among clergy and Bible scholars that it's taught in most seminaries. Ask your pastor - he'll probably confirm it too.

In Christ-

Papias


Hi Papias - thank you for showing me that the bible does not say the world is flat. I read through your references, check each of them, and their language meaning. And it is obvious you have just cut and pasted that stuff not actually researched it. Because the bible no where says the world is flat. Thanks again.
 
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Papias

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I firstly Job 38:14 does not say the earth is stamped flat under a seal, it says the landscape changes as the sun rises to cover it.

You are ignoring the text itself. It does indeed directly say "like clay under a seal".
Job 38:14
The earth takes shape like clay under a seal
its features stand out like those of a garment.

"the landscape changes as the sun rises to cover it"? What? Not only does it not say that, but hat doesn't even make sense. The sun rises to cover the landscape? The landscape changes shape because of the sun as we watch?

Also you need to realise that much of the bible is metaphorical not a science document. But I will look into your other verses.

Well, sure - but there is a much clearer literal case for a flat earth than for, say, creationism, which some Christians insist is required by a literal reading.


I have just research your claim that the bible says the earth is flat like a table. The verses you provided do not show that. They not once mention a table, nor do they say the earth is flat. They speak of beginning/creation, or lower part, what is below. See individual the verses you referenced:

First of all, these are only some of the verses referenced, and only some of the places where the Bibles are clear that the earth is flat, under a hard dome.

Secondly, and more importantly, giving an interpretation that these are metaphors, despite what Bible scholars say, is hardly "research".

For instance, among the many examples you ignored, you can see from the star of bethlehem story that the earth is seen as described above. After all, if an actual star moved close enough to guide people to a specific house (at most 50 feet above the ground), nothing would be left alive on earth. The same goes for revelation where it says that 1/3 of the stars would drop and land on the ground like fruit from a tree.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsxxyK0CEAAKpds.jpg
BsxxyK0CEAAKpds.jpg


We can get into more of these in detail if you like.


Note also that this is not *my* claim. I'm a bloke on the internet, who can't read Hebrew. You are a bloke on the internet who can't read Hebrew. Neither of us has any clue saying what the Bible describes in Hebrew. However, there are experts - Bible scholars who have devoted their whole lives to reading the Bibles in the original Hebrew, and they are clear that the Bibles describe a flat earth, under a hard dome, with the stars inside the dome, from Genesis to Rev, with dozens of examples in between.

That's why early Christians saw things this way, why Galileo was put under house arrest, and why Martin Luther himself said that the Sun goes around the earth. This is nothing new.

Here is on example of a Bible scholar explaining this. You could also ask your pastor - there is a good chance he knows too, if he or she has graduated from an academically rigorous seminary.


In Christ-

Papias
 
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You are ignoring the text itself. It does indeed directly say "like clay under a seal".
Job 38:14
The earth takes shape like clay under a seal
its features stand out like those of a garment.

"the landscape changes as the sun rises to cover it"? What? Not only does it not say that, but hat doesn't even make sense. The sun rises to cover the landscape? The landscape changes shape because of the sun as we watch?

Hi Papias,

You are telling me that that verse says that the earth is flat. But that is not what is intended in the passage, a verse was provided, a translation I should say, ok let's try again:

Here are some scholarly translations of that verse:

Job 38:14 It is changed as clay under the seal; And all things stand forth as a garment:

Job 38:14 It is changed like wet earth under a stamp, and is coloured like a robe;

Job 38:14 Early dawn outlines the hills like stitches on clothing or sketches on clay.

Job 38:14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

So you have been saying, because a clay stamp is flat, this verse says the earth is flat. But that is not what the verse refers to. The stamp metaphor is being used to show, change, not geology. The verse is actually saying:

The appearance of the earth, the way it look as the sun rises, is so distinctly different, that it is similar to the way a stamp changes the appearance of clay.

Many of the other verses you quoted to me, are the same, they have nothing to do with geology.

Psa 21:4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

God has given you eternal life, is it not better to seek to justify His word, to seek it's truth rather than pull it down. You are engendering doubt in people.

If you are wrong on this one point, the clay stamp, what makes you think you are so right with all your other quotes.
 
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Ok I will take some of your stronger points and discuss them, the bible does say "Ends of the earth", but does this mean God told us the earth had ends?

The answer in my opinion is this, God NEVER said "The Earth has ends", all of the scriptures referring to "ends of the earth", are referring to a search being made, or a description being given of the endmost part, take the following verse:

Psa 19:4 Their lineH6957 is gone outH3318 through allH3605 the earth,H776 and their wordsH4405 to the endH7097 of the world.H8398 In them hath he setH7760 a tabernacleH168 for the sun,H8121

The above verse is typical of what is found.

The writer had to say, it that way, how else could it be said? Yes the world is a sphere, but he can't say, as a ancient man, the other side of the earth, or half way around the sphere. Saying half way would totally confuse the meaning. For a start, no one had knowledge of geology, the writer, David, was a man with ancient knowledge, speaking to a people with ancient knowlege.

Imagine the same statement with scientific knowledge:

Their line is gone out through all the earth, to the other side of the world.

The people listening to David would not have understood his meaning, "Other side of what", they would have said "The world does not have sides". To be scientific, exactly precisely, would have made no sense to his listeners.

God was not giving a science lesson.

Their line has gone out to 12,742km around the earth.

Let me reiterate, God did not say "the earth has ends", David, and the other writters, said the message of the gospel, the sound of God's voice, has gone out to the very expanse, the very end of the world.

Even if there were strong arguments for a flat earth view, we have to realise that the bible is a book of communication, not a science textbook. David was communicating using the language of his day, he was not giving the people a science lesson.

Then to the new testament your strongest point, was Satan taking Jesus up on a high mountain and showing him all the kingdoms of the earth.

Firstly Satan did take Jesus onto a high mountain, and yes Jesus would have seen many of the kingdoms of the earth. In fact more than he would at ground level. The only strength you have in this verse is the word ALL, but even then it does not have to mean, Jesus saw every city or person on earth. It could just mean Jesus saw all the cities visible from that mountain.

You have to stop pulling down God's word, engendering doubts in people. Look for possibilities, no doubts.
 
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Papias

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So you have been saying, because a clay stamp is flat, this verse says the earth is flat.

No, that's a strawman. I've been pointing out that the verse illustrates the earth as the clay, and clay stamped under a seal is flat. It doesn't matter what shape the seal itself is.


The verse is actually saying:
The appearance of the earth, the way it look as the sun rises, is so distinctly different, that it is similar to the way a stamp changes the appearance of clay.

No, it isn't. The verse itself was given in post #8, and says:

You are ignoring the text itself. It does indeed directly say "like clay under a seal".
Job 38:14
The earth takes shape like clay under a seal
its features stand out like those of a garment.

Sorry, but you don't get to re-write you Bible just because you wish it said something other than what it says.

Ok I will take some of your stronger points and discuss them,

Which you haven't done. You've taken a few points and made unsupported claims that have ignored what the actual Bible scholars say (whom I've given links to).

or a description being given of the endmost part,

Newsflash: A sphere doesn't have "an endmost part". A flat plane does.

The writer had to say, it that way, how else could it be said? Yes the world is a sphere, but he can't say, as a ancient man, the other side of the earth, or half way around the sphere. Saying half way would totally confuse the meaning. For a start, no one had knowledge of geology, the writer, David, was a man with ancient knowledge, speaking to a people with ancient knowlege.......

God was not giving a science lesson.
..........
Even if there were strong arguments for a flat earth view, we have to realise that the bible is a book of communication, not a science textbook. David was communicating using the language of his day, he was not giving the people a science lesson.

We agree here. You are explaining that the Bible does in fact talk as if the earth was flat, because it is talking to ancient people. God meets us at our level, and communicates to us at our level. The Bible was given to ancient people, who thought the world was flat - so of course it will speak as if the earth is flat. You are absolutely right, it's not a science textbook.

Then to the new testament your strongest point, was Satan taking Jesus up on a high mountain and showing him all the kingdoms of the earth.

Firstly Satan did take Jesus onto a high mountain, and yes Jesus would have seen many of the kingdoms of the earth. In fact more than he would at ground level. The only strength you have in this verse is the word ALL, but even then it does not have to mean, Jesus saw every city or person on earth. It could just mean Jesus saw all the cities visible from that mountain.

... but now you are back to pretending it says something other than what it says. It says "all". You don't get to change your Bible just because you don't like what it says.

What about your earlier point? You are contradicting yourself. The text says "all" because it is talking to ancient people, who thought that from a mountain you could indeed see literally all the cities, because the earth was flat.

O
You have to stop pulling down God's word, engendering doubts in people. Look for possibilities, no doubts.

Being honest about the text and pointing out the God speaks to the people in terms they would have understood is not "pulling down" God's word. If it were, the you too would be pulling down God's word. I don't see what doubts have to do with this discussion. If you have doubts about God, then that is something I'd suggest you talk with your pastor about. As we saw with the Christian Bible scholars, who agree that the Bibles portray a flat earth - and who teach this in seminaries, and which is already known by most clergy - recognizing that God speaks in terms that will be understood has nothing to do with doubts.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Hi Papias,

The issue that I have with your cut and paste of things that you believe describe the earth, as a table, with legs, that does not move, with a done over the top of it, in which the sun and moon have homes. Is this:

The verses you use to support the idea, can have more than one meaning, they are mainly metaphorical not in any way intended to describe the earth.

As examples, the following verse you quote as saying the earth does not move. But read it in context.


Psa 96:10 SayH559 among the heathenH1471 that the LORDH3068 reigneth:H4427 the worldH8398 alsoH637 shall be establishedH3559 that it shall notH1077 be moved:H4131 he shall judgeH1777 the peopleH5971 righteously.H4339 .... Psa 96:13 BeforeH6440 the LORD:H3068 forH3588 he cometh,H935 forH3588 he comethH935 to judgeH8199 the earth:H776 he shall judgeH8199 the worldH8398 with righteousness,H6664 and the peopleH5971 with his truth.H530

Firstly the verse says "also shall be established" that "it shall not be moved". David is saying there will come a day when the earth will no longer be tossed and turned by man, it shall no longer be moved. Move to Psa 96, when does this occur, when God comes to judge the earth.

H4131 - A primitive root; to waver; by implication to slip, shake, fall: - be carried, cast, be out of course, be fallen in decay, X exceedingly, fall (-ing down), be (re-) moved, be ready shake, slide, slip.

This has nothing to do with geology. For how "shall it be established", this in your context would mean, the earth is currently moving, and shall be still.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Then take this verse from Joshua:

Jos 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

You said it described the exact distance from the earth, that the sun and moon were. But again it does not. It describes the spot where the sun and moon stopped from the position that Joshua stood.

Your cut and paste does not glorify God, it is Satan's working.
 
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Papias

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... things that you believe .

No. You are still denying the reality that I've pointed out over and over - that this isn't just "something I believe". It's not even an idea that I came up with. As I've pointed out over and over and you still pretend is not the case, this is the conclusion of Bible scholars - both Protestant and Catholic, who speak and read actual ancient Hebrew and Greek.

That means that you don't have a leg to stand on denying it until you spend as much time and effort as they have, learning the ancient languages, how they were used, and the cultural context. Until you that, your ignorance shows. I'm ignorant here too - but I have the sense to recognize when I'm ignorant.

So, do you recognize that you and I don't speak ancient Hebrew, and that Bible scholars know more about the Bible than you and I? Or will you keep pretending? It's starting to get to be hard to think that this is still an honest mistake.

Remember? Did you watch this? Or ignore it?

....describe the earth, as a table, with legs, that does not move, with a done over the top of it,.....
As examples, the following verse you quote as saying the earth does not move. But read it in context.

I have. And I've pointed out that Christians over the years have read it as describing the earth as flat, under a dome, and that the Bible scholars do as well. Heck, Genesis literally says "dome". What part of "dome" is unclear to you?

And you are using this verse to dispute that? Are you unaware that this very verse was used to refute Galileo's idea that the Earth moved? The church pointed out that this very verse is clear that the earth doesn't move. But what Christians have always thought about these verses, for century after century, is irrelevant, eh?

Then take this verse from Joshua:

Jos 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

You said it described the exact distance from the earth, that the sun and moon were. But again it does not. It describes the spot where the sun and moon stopped from the position that Joshua stood.

It doesn't say anything about where Joshua stood. Again you are adding things to the Bible.

Plus, reading this whole passage again reinforces the flat earth/dome worldview. It says that the sun was stopped for a half a day. On a flat earth, with the sun as a little light in the sky, that makes a lot of sense - just stop the sun as it orbits across the sky inside the dome. But in reality, that actually means stopping the earth's rotation (the sun doesn't move, we do). The earth's rotation is very fast - we are moving at about a quarter mile a second due to the earth's rotation. That's about 1,000 miles an hour! Can you imagine what it would be like if the whole planet, at 1,000 miles an hour, stopped!?!

We'd all pitch to the east at 1,000 miles an hour! No one would be left alive - not Israelites, nor the other armies.

And we'd also have to stop the moon - at which point it would fall to earth because it is the moon's orbit that allows it to resist our gravity. At 265,000 miles away, it would reach us in 2 hours and 24 minutes, and would have sped up to a speed of thousands of miles an hour. The resulting impact would shatter the earth.

As usual, the story only makes sense with a flat earth/dome. Just like the other stories you skipped, like the star of bethlehem story. Remember?

For instance, among the many examples you ignored, you can see from the star of bethlehem story that the earth is seen as described above. After all, if an actual star moved close enough to guide people to a specific house (at most 50 feet above the ground), nothing would be left alive on earth. The same goes for revelation where it says that 1/3 of the stars would drop and land on the ground like fruit from a tree.

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not glorify God, it is Satan's working.

ROTFL!

Really? You think that Christian clergy, Christian Seminaries, and Christian Bible scholars are doing the work of Satan?!? As I've pointed out repeated (and that you are apparently still in a state of denial about), this isn't my idea, but what Christian Bible scholars have known for a long time - just as the early Christians knew it - from reading their Bible. But hey, since it isn't what you'd personally wish your Bible said, it is suddenly "Satan's work"?!?

I almost spit out my coffee!

In Christ-

Papias
 
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