LDS Mormon Holy Ghost?

Phoebe Ann said:

I'm not confused. I asked you and your church members to answer the questions. I'm still waithing on the answer.

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okay now i'm confused, which question

Ironhold said:

How, then, does the Holy Ghost operate under your personal theology?

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As He is true and very God He is everywhere without limit or constraint, there is no place God is not; as "in Him we live and move and have our being". So He personally dwells in all who, by grace, have been born of God, even as St. Peter has said, "repent and be baptized ... and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit is everywhere, filling all things--because He's Eternal and Almighty God.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

As He is true and very God He is everywhere without limit or constraint, there is no place God is not; as "in Him we live and move and have our being". So He personally dwells in all who, by grace, have been born of God, even as St. Peter has said, "repent and be baptized ... and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit". The Holy Spirit is everywhere, filling all things--because He's Eternal and Almighty God.

-CryptoLutheran

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See folks? Now we're getting somewhere. We now have the basis to compare notes.

LDS theology is that the presence of the Holy Ghost can indeed be felt everywhere.

Ironhold said:

See folks? Now we're getting somewhere. We now have the basis to compare notes.

LDS theology is that the presence of the Holy Ghost can indeed be felt everywhere.

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From an orthodox perspective this wouldn't make much sense, in particular because we are taught in the Scriptures that the Spirit is truly in us, and that the Spirit is truly in us is no small matter; it is because the Spirit is in us that we can know God as Father, for we have "the Spirit of His Son in us from which we cry, 'Abba! Father!'" and He is also the promise, alive in us, that even as Christ has been raised from the dead so shall we, "For is if the Spirit of Him who raised Christ from the dead dwells also in you then He who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies".

It is the Holy Spirit, personally and alive in us by the grace of God, that makes us who and what we are. It is not a presence, but a Person, that is this. As we confess in the Nicene Creed, "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son] and who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified." As He is Life-Giver, ζῳοποιόν (zoopoion), He that brings, gives, and makes alive. It is, ultimately, the Spirit who quickens us, making us alive to God now by grace through faith; and then on the Last Day when we are raised up, "it is sown a soulish body, it is raised a Spiritual body"; for is not mere animal activity which will make us alive in the resurrection, but the life-giving Spirit of God (see again Romans 8:11).

-CryptoLutheran

Phoebe Ann said:

More than one question --- you gave them a shot.
Mormon Holy Ghost?

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1. Who is the Mormon holy ghost?

Third member of the Godhead, a personage of spirit. He testifies to use that Jesus is the Son of God.

2. Where does he reside?

I think he is a rather busy fellow but he is in the presences of the Father.

3. Will he live in the Celestial Kingdom when worthy Mormons are there or will he be in some other place?

Yes.

What is His relationship with Heavenly Mother?

drstevej said:

What is His relationship with Heavenly Mother?

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We assume he is another son of God but we really have not been given that information.

ViaCrucis said:

"For is if the Spirit of Him who raised Christ from the dead dwells also in you then He who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies".

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It’s odd what you and I decided to take literally and what we choose not to.

I read Heb 1:3 “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high”

And take it literally, God has a very real right hand. You choose to apply the Christian Creeds and say this is not literal because God invisible.

In Rom 8 I see it as an idiom or allegory but I’m basing that off what I read in the Book of Mormon.

“And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?” Alma 5:14

I don’t believe his actual image is impressed into me but that my heart changes and I desire to follow him.

As I read Rom 8 he’s saying the same thing that Alma said.

*I’ll be inserting and changing some of the capitals.

*Also the word “in” can be translated ’with’ or “among” which makes a huge difference in the meaning. Jesus said “and, lo, I am with you alway,” Mat 28

*When I write Holy Spirit I mean the third member of the Godhead.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the (Holy) Spirit.

2 For the law of the spirit of life (the gospel/atonement) in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death (of Moses)

3 For what the law (of Moses) could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the (Holy) Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the (Holy) Spirit the things that are spiritual.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (They will not bow to the will of God)
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spiritual, if so be that the (Holy) Spirit of God dwell with you. Now if any man have not the spirit of Christ (or received his image in his countenances) , he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be with you, the body is dead because of sin; but the (Holy) Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell with you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth with you. (I’ll look at this in a min)

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the (Holy) Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the (Holy)Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


*Verse 11 has to be looked at in the context of the whole gospel.


11 But if the Spirit of him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in (with) you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his (Christ) Spirit that dwelleth with you.

John 5
“For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will…..Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself”

1 Cor 15
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit (of the Father):

The Father has a physical body and in it is His own personal spirit which is a quickening spirit, He has the power to raise the dead. He rose up Jesus and gave him too this power within his spirit, he is a quickening spirit.

1 Thess 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

withwonderingawe said:

It’s odd what you and I decided to take literally and what we choose not to.

I read Heb 1:3 “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high”

And take it literally, God has a very real right hand. You choose to apply the Christian Creeds and say this is not literal because God invisible.

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Because Scripture says God is invisible.

"[Christ] is the image of the invisible God," - Colossians 1:15a

"By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen." - Hebrews 11:27

"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is at the bosom of the Father, He has disclosed Him." - John 1:18

"[God] alone posesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." - 1 Timothy 6:16

"Behold, I go forward but He is not there, and backward, but I cannot perceive Him;" - Job 23:8

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen." - 1 Timothy 1:17

- CryptoLutheran

In Rom 8 I see it as an idiom or allegory but I’m basing that off what I read in the Book of Mormon.

“And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?” Alma 5:14

I don’t believe his actual image is impressed into me but that my heart changes and I desire to follow him.

As I read Rom 8 he’s saying the same thing that Alma said.

*I’ll be inserting and changing some of the capitals.

*Also the word “in” can be translated ’with’ or “among” which makes a huge difference in the meaning. Jesus said “and, lo, I am with you alway,” Mat 28

*When I write Holy Spirit I mean the third member of the Godhead.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the (Holy) Spirit.

2 For the law of the spirit of life (the gospel/atonement) in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death (of Moses)

3 For what the law (of Moses) could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the (Holy) Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the (Holy) Spirit the things that are spiritual.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (They will not bow to the will of God)
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the spiritual, if so be that the (Holy) Spirit of God dwell with you. Now if any man have not the spirit of Christ (or received his image in his countenances) , he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be with you, the body is dead because of sin; but the (Holy) Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell with you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth with you. (I’ll look at this in a min)

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the (Holy) Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the (Holy)Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


*Verse 11 has to be looked at in the context of the whole gospel.


11 But if the Spirit of him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in (with) you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his (Christ) Spirit that dwelleth with you.

John 5
“For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will…..Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself”

1 Cor 15
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit (of the Father):

The Father has a physical body and in it is His own personal spirit which is a quickening spirit, He has the power to raise the dead. He rose up Jesus and gave him too this power within his spirit, he is a quickening spirit.

1 Thess 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

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ViaCrucis said:

Because Scripture says God is invisible.

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Job 16
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shallstand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Did Job have a false hope?

Matt 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Was Jesus lying?

Acts 7
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Was Stephen hallucinating?

1John 3
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Perhaps John does not know what he is talking about?

Rev 21
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle/ body of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; ....

Now that's kind of hard if your invisible!

The word invisible in the Greek does not mean unseeable but un-seen God, God the Father is unseen except "...to whomsoever the Son will reveal him"

withwonderingawe said:

Job 16
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shallstand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Did Job have a false hope?

Matt 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Was Jesus lying?

Acts 7
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Was Stephen hallucinating?

1John 3
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Perhaps John does not know what he is talking about?

Rev 21
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle/ body of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; ....

Now that's kind of hard if your invisible!

The word invisible in the Greek does not mean unseeable but un-seen God, God the Father is unseen except "...to whomsoever the Son will reveal him"

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No, it means unseeable, ἀόρατος is an adjective meaning "unable to be seen", from the negative prefix ἀ- and the verb ὁράω "to see", constructed in the adjective with the -ος declension; "unseeable", in ordinary English we use the Latin-derived invisible. If you want to say "unseen" sure, but this is a description of God, God is unseen, not visible, God is He who "cannot be seen".

So now how do we deal with these other passages? Do we conclude that God can be seen, and all these statements that God is ἀόρατος are false? Do we explain them away as you have done? Or do we permit the clear and precise statements govern how we interpret other statements. If God is ἀόρατος then how does Christ make Him known? Perhaps we might already have ourselves that answer in Scripture itself:

"If you have seen Me you have seen the Father. Interesting.
"He is the image of the invisible God." Also interesting.
"The express image of His glory." Interesting again.

Almost as though Jesus is the revelation of God, as though "No one has at any time seen God, but the only-begotten who is at the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known." Almost as though, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God ... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father full of grace and truth." Almost as though we can know God in and through Jesus because Jesus, being the very Word of God made flesh, can tell us about the Father and show us the Father because He is "the Way, Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Me"; the One whom the Father has sent, the One who makes God known.

Almost as though, maybe, Jesus is the way we see God.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

No, it means unseeable, ἀόρατος is an adjective meaning "unable to be seen",

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mmmm

Heb 11
27 By faith he (Moses) forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

I do not understand Greek at all however I think in this case Strongs is translating this to fit their prior assumptions about the Trinity doctrine concept rather than how it was intended.

From ἄλφα (G1) (as a negative particle)
first letter of Greek alphabet,

where does the negative particle come in?

and ὁρατός (G3707)
ὁρατός horatós, hor-at-os'; from G3708; gazed at, i.e. (by implication) capable of being seen:—visible.

I found an on line book by Jerry L Sumney who is a professor at at Lexington Theological Seminary. Even though he is working within the bases of the Trinity Doctrine he says it may mean Unseen or unseeable however he agrees with me that the NT intention is 'unseen' based on the knowledge that in the Old Testament man did see God.

Colossians: A Commentary page 63-64


//books.google.com/books?id=5zbD-qWE_AsC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=aoratos+means+unseen&source=bl&ots=R4RjldRuz9&sig=A1I7kkgpGMPX2sfsmtdLA9XtibQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjd9eW5p_nVAhXo1IMKHXY8DFoQ6AEIQDAF#v=onepage&q=aoratos%20means%20unseen&f=false

Phoebe Ann said:

Post your references please.

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Matt 28 :19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Can't really think of any other passage, just being part of the Godhead and bearing the title of God aught to imply he resides with God.