Shouldn't God's eternal love mean hell can't exist?

Neogaia777 · Aug 27, 2017

Ezekiel 18:21-32

21 But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 None of his transgressions that he hath committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel: Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When the righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth therein; in his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord Jehovah. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.

Instrument150 · Aug 27, 2017

OzSpen said:
So 'punished' does not include 'cursed'! Is that what you're saying.

This is what I wrote:

"Matt 25:41 (ESV) speaks of those on Jesus' left, the 'cursed', who were told to depart from Jesus and were sent 'into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels'. This is Jesus punishing those who are 'cursed'. It is not a person choosing to be punished."

You use the actual words of Scripture. So do I, but they have to be interpreted and that's what you do also.

Oz

I just have to disagree with the intent behind this scripture, and the intent behind what Jesus says to that person. It's not a punishment, it is a wage. It is what you are getting paid for the job you accepted

For the wages of sin are death

Neogaia777 · Aug 27, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Ezekiel 18:21-32

21 But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22 None of his transgressions that he hath committed shall be remembered against him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel: Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

26 When the righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth therein; in his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord Jehovah. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.

Now, some of you might say, "Well God could still save those wicked ones or workers of iniquity, and allow them into heaven, can't he...?" He maybe "can", if he forced them, but he won't do that...

And God will not allow it either because their would be fighting and disputing and arguing and contentiousness and strife and envy and hatred, and if he forced those ones into heaven, they would turn it into a hell for the rest who deserve a heavenly existence and that would not be fair to them, or just at all... So, the only place left for them is "hell"...

Maybe for "some" of them, till they learn or come to know better and do turn from their evil and wicked ways and do repent, and then can get out of it, and for some others there, maybe never...

God gives us the ability to choose between good and evil, and if we choose evil, and never forsake evil, during our life here, there is no place left for us but hell, or a hellish existence...

And we send ourselves there, not God...

God Bless!

Rajni · Aug 27, 2017

God just doesn't get enough credit.
Ah, well....

pat34lee · Aug 28, 2017

Oscarr said:
Come on! Saying that God knows the unknowable future is just sheer fantasy. The trouble is that people read their religious hokus pokus into the Bible instead of comprehending what the Bible is actually saying.

Nothing is unknowable to God. Time was created, just as everything
else in the universe. He is not bound by time or distance from any thing.

pat34lee · Aug 28, 2017

Oscarr said:
All you have to do is to read the Bible and see how many times God changed His mind and his plans in response to decisions people made. Fate or destiny where a deity foreknows every single details of the future and where folks are locked into events they cannot control or change is not a Biblical but a Muslim concept. If we are dealing with a God who knows every details of the future, why pray to change God's mind about things? He already knows what's going to happen so you might as well stop praying and asking and just stay on the roller coaster and let your fate and destiny which has already been foreknown take its course. But that is not what the Biblical characters did. They did things to change God's mind and plans except for the events that God had determined that He was going to bring to pass.

There is the difference between blind justice
and blind mercy. God is both just and merciful.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 28, 2017

pat34lee said:
Nothing is unknowable to God. Time was created, just as everything
else in the universe. He is not bound by time or distance from any thing.

That is a philosophical, not a Biblical concept. Time is merely one event following another. Without it, nothing can exist. Universe time has a beginning, a middle and an end, but eternal time has no end. There is no Biblical evidence that time was something that was created. The ability to measure time by the rotation of the earth and its rotation around the sun was created, but not time itself. Time is an eternal constant because it, as I said, is one event following another. If there are no events following one another, then everything is frozen and cannot move, like a photograph. God, in heaven, is not described that way in the Biblical record. He has a past, present and future, like all of us, except that His past reaches right back into the eternal past and His future will have no end.

Rajni · Aug 28, 2017

pat34lee said:
Nothing is unknowable to God. Time was created, just as everything
else in the universe. He is not bound by time or distance from any thing.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 28, 2017

pat34lee said:
There is the difference between blind justice
and blind mercy. God is both just and merciful.

God's justice is never blind. It is firmly based on His own character and nature. Everything that God does is righteous and just. Punishing sinners who throw the gospel of Christ in His face is righteous justice. He has provided the greatest escape from the wrath to come. If rebellious sinners reject it, they have no one to blame but themselves. God's mercy is based on a person's response to the gospel and their attitude to Christ. Sinners who reject Christ are condemned already and are deserving of hell because of their rebellion against God. They are already dead in their sins, and the only salvation for them is to accept Christ as their saviour.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 28, 2017

RayJeena said:

As I said before, that is philosophical and not Biblical. God is in the same present as we are. He knows the past because He has a perfect memory, but He doesn't know the future because it doesn't exist yet. The future is created by the decisions we all make. Prophecies that come to pass are those that God purposes to bring to pass, not because He knows exactly what decisions we will actually make. He knows the infinite possibilities of every decision we could make, and He also knows the infinite possibilities of our reactions to the actions He takes concerning us and the affairs of the Church and the world.

Anguspure · Aug 29, 2017

Oscarr said:
That is a philosophical, not a Biblical concept. Time is merely one event following another. Without it, nothing can exist. Universe time has a beginning, a middle and an end, but eternal time has no end. There is no Biblical evidence that time was something that was created. The ability to measure time by the rotation of the earth and its rotation around the sun was created, but not time itself. Time is an eternal constant because it, as I said, is one event following another. If there are no events following one another, then everything is frozen and cannot move, like a photograph. God, in heaven, is not described that way in the Biblical record. He has a past, present and future, like all of us, except that His past reaches right back into the eternal past and His future will have no end.

Actually it is a physical property of the universe, to which the Bible attests in a number of locations. The first verse says Bereshit bara Elohim...and then in verse 5 describes the creation of time itself on day one (Yom echad).

Time is only observed to act on physical objects and where objects loose physical locality at the quantum level, time also ceases to be observed. In this way we can see that time is digital and discreet, and further more that it advances upon observation of an effect.
We see time passing smoothly both because of the quantum interval being well beyond our perception but also because we are immersed in a universe of millions of constantly occurring effects.

IMO Eternal time, in the sense of how God operates before He creates the universe is pizzicato. At the point where God does something there is a time event however unless He directly creates an effect then time is not observed to pass.

In this way God is seen to be without time until He creates the universe in which we live and time itself. Eternity thereafter continues as we observe cause and effect to the potential point of infinity and the Creator now acts within time.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 29, 2017

Anguspure said:
Actually it is a physical property of the universe, to which the Bible attests in a number of locations. The first verse says Bereshit bara Elohim...and then in verse 5 describes the creation of time itself on day one (Yom echad).

Time is only observed to act on physical objects and where objects loose physical locality at the quantum level, time also ceases to be observed. In this way we can see that time is digital and discreet, and further more that it advances upon observation of an effect.
We see time passing smoothly both because of the quantum interval being well beyond our perception but also because we are immersed in a universe of millions of constantly occurring effects.

IMO Eternal time, in the sense of how God operates before He creates the universe is pizzicato. At the point where God does something there is a time event however unless He directly creates an effect then time is not observed to pass.

In this way God is seen to be without time until He creates the universe in which we live and time itself. Eternity thereafter continues as we observe cause and effect to the potential point of infinity and the Creator now acts within time.

An interesting theory. Probably exists in the area of knowledge outside of our miniscule slice of what we know.

OzSpen · Aug 29, 2017

Instrument150 said:
I just have to disagree with the intent behind this scripture, and the intent behind what Jesus says to that person. It's not a punishment, it is a wage. It is what you are getting paid for the job you accepted

For the wages of sin are death

That's not what Matt 25:41 teaches.

Quoting Rom 6:23 does not solve your problem.

Oz

Instrument150 · Aug 29, 2017

OzSpen said:
That's not what Matt 25:41 teaches.

Quoting Rom 6:23 does not solve your problem.

Oz

Why does "depart from me" inspire judgement in you? Is it fear of the consequence, perhaps you have been tricked into believing that Jesus says this as a way of punishing you. It is your wage. It is a sad thing. But it is not judgement

Instrument150 · Aug 29, 2017

Mathew 25:41

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into ever lasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Is it not your curse that sends you to this place?

Recognizing this curse, and not allowing it to enter heaven due to its' nature and the oxymoron its' existence would create in heaven, is simply following the natural order of things.

OzSpen · Aug 29, 2017

Instrument150 said:
Why does "depart from me" inspire judgement in you? Is it fear of the consequence, perhaps you have been tricked into believing that Jesus says this as a way of punishing you. It is your wage. It is a sad thing. But it is not judgement

Instrument,

Nobody has 'tricked' me to understand 'depart from me' as judgment. That's what the text says.

I read the entire verse of Matt 25:41, '“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels' (ESV, emphasis added).

Surely you can see that when the Son of Man comes, he will separate people (Mt 25:31) and those on his left will be 'cursed' (that's punishment) and sent 'into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels' (v. 41). That's also severe punishment.

Could you have a partiality against hell that prevents you from seeing eternal fire with the devil and his demons as punishment?

Oz

Paidiske · Aug 31, 2017

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Si_monfaith · Sep 4, 2017

blueyedlion said:
Hi guys, im a christian with some views i wish to share here and get some great feed back from this community.

My question is - how do you reconcile god as ever-loving and still have a hell? i find hell contradicts the very notion of a god that loves all unconditionally for all time and yet still has a place for you where he doesn't love you.

I believe god is embracing, and hell’s definition is the absence of God or a lack of love for God, and that cant exist because god is never absent and is never not loving you. So how does hell make sense to you?

God's ever

blueyedlion said:
Hi guys, im a christian with some views i wish to share here and get some great feed back from this community.

My question is - how do you reconcile god as ever-loving and still have a hell? i find hell contradicts the very notion of a god that loves all unconditionally for all time and yet still has a place for you where he doesn't love you.

I believe god is embracing, and hell’s definition is the absence of God or a lack of love for God, and that cant exist because god is never absent and is never not loving you. So how does hell make sense to you?

Hell is to help understand that eternal life is not what we chose but what our Lord chose by His grace and love.

Just like stars are better appreciated in a background of darkness.

HighwayMan · Sep 4, 2017

Si_monfaith said:
Just like stars are better appreciated in a background of darkness.

I don't know about you, but if a "background of darkness" stood for eternal torture and hell for billions of people, I myself wouldn't be able to "appreciate" or enjoy a single star. My thinking would be "this is terrible, and how do we help these people." An answer of "it's game over for them, they will forever be this way" would not help me enjoy any star or anything else whatsoever.

Noxot · Sep 4, 2017

blueyedlion said:
Hi guys, im a christian with some views i wish to share here and get some great feed back from this community.

My question is - how do you reconcile god as ever-loving and still have a hell? i find hell contradicts the very notion of a god that loves all unconditionally for all time and yet still has a place for you where he doesn't love you.

I believe god is embracing, and hell’s definition is the absence of God or a lack of love for God, and that cant exist because god is never absent and is never not loving you. So how does hell make sense to you?

hell is a delusion created by evil people and it exist as long as they make it to exist since they have the freedom to be good or evil. the best possible world requires that we have the freedom to love and having freedom implies the ability to give birth to something that is not love. I think God is always constant in his love which is why I believe that hell is bound to time rather than eternity.

Shouldn't God's eternal love mean hell can't exist?

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