Scriptural references to Purgatory - Old and New Testament

zeland2236 said:

What About Heb. 9:27 What point are you trying to make?

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I didn't quote Hebrews 9:27. Are you saying that Hebrews 9:27 is evidence of purgatory?

zeland2236 said:

No! But it sounded like you were using Heb. 9:27 against Purgatory?

If Purgatory does not exist, then why is Paul praying for his dead friend in 1 Tim. 1:16-18?
Why is King David and his men fasting (doing penance) for those who have died (2 Samuel 1:12)?

Zeland

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I'm not sure to be honest. But not understanding why they did is not a basis to support purgatory. That's an assumption. The bible doesn't say why they prayed for the dead and fasted. But you see that Paul says many times that our salvation has already been established and by saying we are holy and blameless without a single fault before God and we can enter the Most Holy Place. If purgatory did exist and it was taught by the apostles surely he would've mentioned it before saying we can enter the Most Holy Place and he wouldn't say that we are holy without a single fault in the present tense if purgatory is still required to remove sins and for temporal punishment. That would be an incorrect statement if purgatory did exist. What are your thoughts?

removed

May I ask, what is the exact nature of purgatory in Catholic theology?

I am under the impression that it is a place of punishment, meant to atone for the temporal punishment that Catholics teach is necessary for all sin, and in so doing, purges the soul from ... (?) something?


We (Orthodox) do believe in an intermediate state, but that (generally speaking) the soul experiences a foretaste of the destiny it has fitted itself for. However ... we agree with you that the final judgement has not yet happened.

We do not teach the necessity of temporal punishment as some kind of atoning for sin (I'm not sure if Catholics view it that way exactly?). But we do agree that suffering can be a means of purging the soul from passions. Many people draw closer to God and put away passions during earthly life as a response to suffering we experience.

We do agree that any necessary purification of the soul upon departing the body must take place. However, we consider it entirely possible that such purification (while the soul may find it painful) is not a necessarily long process, but can possibly be instantaneous (or nearly so, as the soul separates itself from the passions).

We have the same Scriptures as the Catholics, but interpret them differently. Do Catholics cite any of the ECFs on Scripture in support of purgatory?

zeland2236 said:

The Jews in Paul's time believed in Purgatory. If Purgatory does not exist, then Paul's actions, and King David's actions are pointless. 1 Tim 1: Is the earliest NT example of prayers for the dead. Paul states why he id praying for his friend. He is asking God to be merciful to his friend on judgment day.

2 Maccabees 12: 43-46 is another OT reference to Purgatory, and a very clear one. "43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,


44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)


45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

If these people are in Heaven they don't need any prayers. If they are in hell, prayers will do them no good. so obviously they must be someplace else. Someplace in a spiritual holding tank so to speak - a spiritual prison (Matt 5: 25-26; Luke 12:59).

The early Church believed in purgatory. Just look it up. The early church says that all the verses I listed refer to a place of final cleansing, a place we call purgatory.

Does that help any?

God bless

zeland

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I don't recognize Maccabees as an inspired writing. I go by the Hebrews bible not the Septuagint. Purgatory was invented in the late 12th century. It is not biblical and people praying for the dead is not proof of purgatory. Notice there is no discussion or teaching of purgatory in the bible. That why the men who came up with it had to take scriptures out of context to support their theory. I've already shown you that the teaching of purgatory contradicts the scriptures. Jumping to conclusions based on assumptions still doesn't change that fact.

Hello, BNR32FAN, and welcome to CF, and to Traditional Theology. I pray you are blessed by being here.

I don't have time to evaluate everything that's been said (so this is not a particular warning) but I would ask that you read the Statement of Purpose for Traditional Theology if posting in this area.

It is not necessary that we agree with each other (I'm Orthodox, and we have never had the doctrine of purgatory and regard it as an innovation) ... but we aren't focused here on arguing who is wrong or right, but rather presenting the position of our own Tradition (if we have one).

Just wanted to welcome you since I see you are new.

God be with you!

BNR32FAN said:

I don't recognize Maccabees as an inspired writing. I go by the Hebrews bible not the Septuagint. Purgatory was invented in the late 12th century. It is not biblical and people praying for the dead is not proof of purgatory. Notice there is no discussion or teaching of purgatory in the bible. That why the men who came up with it had to take scriptures out of context to support their theory. I've already shown you that the teaching of purgatory contradicts the scriptures. Jumping to conclusions based on assumptions still doesn't change that fact.

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~Anastasia~ said:

Hello, BNR32FAN, and welcome to CF, and to Traditional Theology. I pray you are blessed by being here.

I don't have time to evaluate everything that's been said (so this is not a particular warning) but I would ask that you read the Statement of Purpose for Traditional Theology if posting in this area.

It is not necessary that we agree with each other (I'm Orthodox, and we have never had the doctrine of purgatory and regard it as an innovation) ... but we aren't focused here on arguing who is wrong or right, but rather presenting the position of our own Tradition (if we have one).

Just wanted to welcome you since I see you are new.

God be with you!

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Thanks brother I have read the SPTT. I hope I wasn't in violation of the rules. Perhaps I am off topic because the thread is Scripture references that support purgatory not scriptures that purgatory contradicts. Please forgive me I'm in the wrong room. I have noting to post here. God bless

BNR32FAN said:

Thanks brother I have read the SPTT. I hope I wasn't in violation of the rules. Perhaps I am off topic because the thread is Scripture references that support purgatory not scriptures that purgatory contradicts. Please forgive me I'm in the wrong room. I have noting to post here. God bless

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Hello again and God bless you too. (oh and it's sister, but that's ok )

I'm not trying to run you out, and I tried to be clear that I hadn't had time to read everything so I wasn't saying you were in violation. I'm sorry if I didn't express that well. You're not off topic either that I saw.

I just didn't want it to dissolve into a debate of trying to prove one another wrong, since that isn't the purpose of TT. As I mentioned, we don't believe in purgatory either so you don't have to agree either way.

Discussion is allowed, but mostly we are here to understand each other (not necessarily to agree). And it's perfectly fine to post a different tradition's viewpoint. We're just not trying to argue to a conclusion, and I wanted to keep it from heading that way.

God be with you.

~Anastasia~ said:

Hello again and God bless you too. (oh and it's sister, but that's ok )

I'm not trying to run you out, and I tried to be clear that I hadn't had time to read everything so I wasn't saying you were in violation. I'm sorry if I didn't express that well. You're not off topic either that I saw.

I just didn't want it to dissolve into a debate of trying to prove one another wrong, since that isn't the purpose of TT. As I mentioned, we don't believe in purgatory either so you don't have to agree either way.

Discussion is allowed, but mostly we are here to understand each other (not necessarily to agree). And it's perfectly fine to post a different tradition's viewpoint. We're just not trying to argue to a conclusion, and I wanted to keep it from heading that way.

God be with you.

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I understand thanks for clarifying sister and I'm sorry for calling you brother. Have a blessed day

zeland2236 said:

MY REPLY​

I am under the impression that it is a place of punishment, meant to atone for the temporal punishment that Catholics teach is necessary for all sin, and in so doing, purges the soul from all it's Imperfections. Yes True - any imperfections that we failed to atone for in this life while we were alive.

Our sins have consequences, and we must undo the harm they have caused. See 2 Samuel 2:13-14. For example, if some kids playing ball accidentally hit and break a window in your house, you will forgive then, but you still expect them to pay for a new window. Purgatory is for cleaning up the mess our sins have caused while in this life.

12We (Orthodox) do believe in an intermediate state, but that (generally speaking) the soul experiences a foretaste of the destiny it has fitted itself for. However ... we agree with you that the final judgement has not yet happened. YES, TRUE. Our particular judgement happens at the moment of death. The general judgment will take place at the end of the world.

We do not teach the necessity of temporal punishment as some kind of atoning for sin (I'm not sure if Catholics view it that way exactly?) YES, As the example above indicates. Any imperfections we fail to atone for in this life, are atoned for in Purgatory.

But we do agree that suffering can be a means of purging the soul from passions. Many people draw closer to God and put away passions during earthly life as a response to suffering we experience. YES,TRUE.

We do agree that any necessary purification of the soul upon departing the body must take place. However, we consider it entirely possible that such purification (while the soul may find it painful) is not a necessarily long process, but can possibly be instantaneous (or nearly so, as the soul separates itself from the passions). TRUE. It is possible to purify ourselves while in this life and avoid Purgatory all together. We do this by offering up all our daily prayers and sufferings in reparation for our sins and offenses. Look up St. Teresa's "Little Way". You can get a plenary indulgence by doing various good works and prayers. For example, spending an hour in front of the Blessed sacrament. Some people will experience a long Purgatory, others little if any.

In general, Protestants, those who do get to heaven, will suffer the longest in Purgatory. Because they don't believe in it, they make no effort in this life to avoid it. Also they have no one to pray or offer sacrifice for them (Except Catholics and Orthodox)

Also, See the following
Purgatory | Catholic Answers

We have the same Scriptures as the Catholics, but interpret them differently. Do Catholics cite any of the ECFs on Scripture in support of purgatory?

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I don't know what you mean by ECFs? Please explain. Thanks.

God bless.

zeland

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Your reference is from the Old Testament before Jesus died for our sins. It is obsolete. Surely you believe that the bible does not contradict itself. The only way I can be convinced that purgatory exists is if someone can explain to me how it does not contradict these scriptures.

Paul said that we are reconciled and made right with God by Jesus' sacrifice and we are able to enter the most Holy place. Hence the vail was torn from top to bottom. All these references are stated in the past tense indicating that these things have already taken place. Hence "It is finished".

Pay close attention to the details of what Paul is saying here.

“yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:22-23‬ ‭ASV‬‬

The key words are "now, reconciled, present you holy without blemish, unreprovable before Him (God),

You said that sin leaves us with imperfections. Where is that taught in the bible? Is it before or after Jesus paid the price for us? I just showed you evidence where Paul says we have no imperfections.

“And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:11‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:17-20‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:24‬ ‭ASV‬‬

If the kids break your window and don't pay for it do you still forgive them or are you still angry? You said that you forgive them but they still need to pay for the window. That means that they are not forgiven until they pay for the window.

What it boils down to in the end brother is God's word cannot contradict God's word and there is a difference between proof and possible evidence. If the teaching of purgatory contradicts even one verse of scripture it cannot be true. No matter how many verses appear to be talking about purgatory it is never specifically mentioned and requires making an assumption to come to the conclusion that it does exist. The verses you are showing is possible evidence not proof. The verses I'm showing are proof that purgatory or at least the catholic understanding of it is incorrect.

zeland2236 said:

MY REPLY​

I am under the impression that it is a place of punishment, meant to atone for the temporal punishment that Catholics teach is necessary for all sin, and in so doing, purges the soul from all it's Imperfections. Yes True - any imperfections that we failed to atone for in this life while we were alive.

Our sins have consequences, and we must undo the harm they have caused. See 2 Samuel 2:13-14. For example, if some kids playing ball accidentally hit and break a window in your house, you will forgive then, but you still expect them to pay for a new window. Purgatory is for cleaning up the mess our sins have caused while in this life.

12We (Orthodox) do believe in an intermediate state, but that (generally speaking) the soul experiences a foretaste of the destiny it has fitted itself for. However ... we agree with you that the final judgement has not yet happened. YES, TRUE. Our particular judgement happens at the moment of death. The general judgment will take place at the end of the world.

We do not teach the necessity of temporal punishment as some kind of atoning for sin (I'm not sure if Catholics view it that way exactly?) YES, As the example above indicates. Any imperfections we fail to atone for in this life, are atoned for in Purgatory.

But we do agree that suffering can be a means of purging the soul from passions. Many people draw closer to God and put away passions during earthly life as a response to suffering we experience. YES,TRUE.

We do agree that any necessary purification of the soul upon departing the body must take place. However, we consider it entirely possible that such purification (while the soul may find it painful) is not a necessarily long process, but can possibly be instantaneous (or nearly so, as the soul separates itself from the passions). TRUE. It is possible to purify ourselves while in this life and avoid Purgatory all together. We do this by offering up all our daily prayers and sufferings in reparation for our sins and offenses. Look up St. Teresa's "Little Way". You can get a plenary indulgence by doing various good works and prayers. For example, spending an hour in front of the Blessed sacrament. Some people will experience a long Purgatory, others little if any.

In general, Protestants, those who do get to heaven, will suffer the longest in Purgatory. Because they don't believe in it, they make no effort in this life to avoid it. Also they have no one to pray or offer sacrifice for them (Except Catholics and Orthodox)

Also, See the following
Purgatory | Catholic Answers

We have the same Scriptures as the Catholics, but interpret them differently. Do Catholics cite any of the ECFs on Scripture in support of purgatory?

Click to expand...

I don't know what you mean by ECFs? Please explain. Thanks.

God bless.

zeland

[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry Zeland I should've paid closer attention I thought you were replying to me. Please forgive my intrusion.

ECFs = Early Christian Fathers

zeland2236 said:

MY REPLY​

I am under the impression that it is a place of punishment, meant to atone for the temporal punishment that Catholics teach is necessary for all sin, and in so doing, purges the soul from all it's Imperfections. Yes True - any imperfections that we failed to atone for in this life while we were alive.

Our sins have consequences, and we must undo the harm they have caused. See 2 Samuel 2:13-14. For example, if some kids playing ball accidentally hit and break a window in your house, you will forgive then, but you still expect them to pay for a new window. Purgatory is for cleaning up the mess our sins have caused while in this life.

12We (Orthodox) do believe in an intermediate state, but that (generally speaking) the soul experiences a foretaste of the destiny it has fitted itself for. However ... we agree with you that the final judgement has not yet happened. YES, TRUE. Our particular judgement happens at the moment of death. The general judgment will take place at the end of the world.

We do not teach the necessity of temporal punishment as some kind of atoning for sin (I'm not sure if Catholics view it that way exactly?) YES, As the example above indicates. Any imperfections we fail to atone for in this life, are atoned for in Purgatory.

But we do agree that suffering can be a means of purging the soul from passions. Many people draw closer to God and put away passions during earthly life as a response to suffering we experience. YES,TRUE.

We do agree that any necessary purification of the soul upon departing the body must take place. However, we consider it entirely possible that such purification (while the soul may find it painful) is not a necessarily long process, but can possibly be instantaneous (or nearly so, as the soul separates itself from the passions). TRUE. It is possible to purify ourselves while in this life and avoid Purgatory all together. We do this by offering up all our daily prayers and sufferings in reparation for our sins and offenses. Look up St. Teresa's "Little Way". You can get a plenary indulgence by doing various good works and prayers. For example, spending an hour in front of the Blessed sacrament. Some people will experience a long Purgatory, others little if any.

In general, Protestants, those who do get to heaven, will suffer the longest in Purgatory. Because they don't believe in it, they make no effort in this life to avoid it. Also they have no one to pray or offer sacrifice for them (Except Catholics and Orthodox)

Also, See the following
Purgatory | Catholic Answers

We have the same Scriptures as the Catholics, but interpret them differently. Do Catholics cite any of the ECFs on Scripture in support of purgatory?

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I see prodromos already answered re: ECFs.

I don't know what you mean by ECFs? Please explain. Thanks.

God bless.

zeland

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Thank you for the reply.


I know I have asked Catholics before and it explained many things about what Catholics believe when I finally understood (I may not say this right) ... you believe there are two kinds of consequences of sin? The eternal consequence is what Christ removed through the cross (do Catholics affirm penal substitution? I didn't think you exactly did from what I've heard Catholics say. But I'm not sure on what basis you might object to it, or what you believe instead, in that case?). And Catholics likewise believe in temporal consequences, which must be removed by good works, or some kind of merit-based grace, or suffering, etc?

Orthodox agree that there are eternal consequences of sin, and we need to be forgiven by God through Christ in order to be accepted by Him.

As for temporal consequences, there often simply ARE consequences of sin, because all sin is an injury of some sort, to the individual, to the community, to humanity at large, or whatever. But these are more like natural consequences to us, not something imposed by God requiring punishment? I guess what I don't understand is, Catholics believe they can (and must) atone for these temporal consequences? And that satisfaction is required for God's forgiveness, even in an eternal sense?

I think examples are easier. Yes, if the boy breaks a window, he may be forgiven, but still expected to pay. Good enough. But what if he can't pay? Can't even work it off, and no one can pay for him? Would God in that situation not forgive a person (salvation/eternal consequences) if they can't "pay" the temporal consequences? And I suppose I don't understand how the suffering of purgatory in that case is supposed to be payment? Does God exact payment in the form of suffering if reparations are not made to other persons to whom they might be due? And how does that actually undo the wrong that was done - someone still has a broken, unpaid-for window?


I think from our (Orthodox) point of view, it matters not so much if we actually pay for the window. If we can make up for our wrongs, we should. If we can't ... well, we can't. We would not say God is going to punish us and call that payment. HOWEVER ... if we despise the person whose window we broke, don't care that they are lacking a window and it's all because if our action - then we have a problem. In that case, there is a sickness in the soul of such a person that needs to be fixed, and he is not suitable for the presence of God until that happens. We also hope to addresss such things in life, in submission to and cooperation with the grace of God, and hope to be made in the likeness of Christ before we die. In whatever ways we fall short, if God yet judges us "saved" ... then He must deal with those, and it likely won't be pleasant for us. But we stop short of a developed purgatory doctrine to explain it, and we really must reject it being established fact.


If Catholics do hold to penal substitution, perhaps that might explain to me how suffering in purgatory can equal payment for wrongs done in your theology (forgive me if I'm getting that wrong).

And I do know it's tied to the idea of merits, etc, which I try to keep in mind when asking these questions. We absolutely don't share that with Catholics at all, since we don't believe in created grace, but view it as the very energy of God and how He interacts with humankind.

I know these questions are a bit scattered and confused. I really was able to understand what Catholicism teaches a lot better when I understood the two kinds of punishment/atonement for sin, but even now a few years later it is difficult for me to completely make sense of all of it.

Thank you again for the reply.

rrguy said:

zeland2236 Thanks.

I found its always good to see if scripture supports an idea or belief, mentions it, or goes against it.

Do you think this one has relevance?

Colossians 3:25 For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

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In that verse Paul appears to be talking about our rewards or inheritance we will receive according to our deeds. Notice in verse 23 & 24 he is talking about this subject.

“whatsoever ye do, work heartily, as unto the Lord, and not unto men; knowing that from the Lord ye shall receive the recompense of the inheritance: ye serve the Lord Christ. For he that doeth wrong shall receive again for the wrong that he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:23-25‬ ‭ASV‬‬

prodromos said:

Both Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox pray for their dead, have liturgies served for them, perform acts of charity in their name and have regular memorials for them yet there is no concept of purgatory in either Church and Rome's divergence from them predates any development of the doctrine of purgatory in the West. So it would seem that the doctrine of purgatory is a modern innovation that did not exist in the early Church, else you would see some form of it in every ancient Church.

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According to the catholic catechism the doctrine of purgatory was formulated in the councils of Florence and Trent. The council of Florence was held in 1439AD and the council of Trent was held in 1563AD. I might add that this was during a very dark time in the catholic church's history. During the time of the inquisitions and the selling of indulgences. I believe that the selling of indulgences could've played a huge part of why the doctrine of purgatory was instituted.

~Anastasia~ said:

May I ask, what is the exact nature of purgatory in Catholic theology?

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The simplest definition? Purgatory is the STATE that the saved soul after death is cleansed of all spiritual impurities left on their soul.

~Anastasia~ said:

I am under the impression that it is a place of punishment, meant to atone for the temporal punishment that Catholics teach is necessary for all sin, and in so doing, purges the soul from ... (?) something?

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It may be the case that it is. Some of the Early Church Fathers who discussed the matter thought that pain was definitely involved. Some referenced a cleansing fire based upon what St. Paul wrote in 1 Cor.

Later medieval ideas of purgatory does speak of purgatory being a torment.

~Anastasia~ said:

We (Orthodox) do believe in an intermediate state, but that (generally speaking) the soul experiences a foretaste of the destiny it has fitted itself for. However ... we agree with you that the final judgement has not yet happened.

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Okay.

~Anastasia~ said:

We do not teach the necessity of temporal punishment as some kind of atoning for sin (I'm not sure if Catholics view it that way exactly?). But we do agree that suffering can be a means of purging the soul from passions. Many people draw closer to God and put away passions during earthly life as a response to suffering we experience.

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Okay. Temporal punishment is part of our theology.

~Anastasia~ said:

We do agree that any necessary purification of the soul upon departing the body must take place. However, we consider it entirely possible that such purification (while the soul may find it painful) is not a necessarily long process, but can possibly be instantaneous (or nearly so, as the soul separates itself from the passions).

Click to expand...

We do believe that there is a time component, but we don't really know what or how much.

~Anastasia~ said:

We have the same Scriptures as the Catholics, but interpret them differently. Do Catholics cite any of the ECFs on Scripture in support of purgatory?

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Yes quite a few. St. Gregory of Nyssa, St Augustine, St. Cyprian, Origen, Tertullian, St. Clement of Alexandria, St Gregory the Great, among others.