MJ and Oral Torah

Open Heart said:

Obviously you didn't bother to read the article. Your loss.

Click to expand...

This ain't my first rodeo.
I just went and read through it to make sure that it didn't
slip in something new, even if it is 8 years old.

Do you believe the oral tradition is part of the 13
principles of the Jewish faith? I'm fairly certain that
the author does, and is Orthodox, not messianic.

Nothing new to me, except the weak Tobit argument.
And trying to argue that Joshua 8:35 didn't really mean
what it said, or that he couldn't tell what it meant. It is
as plain as any scripture can be. There were no laws
given by God to Moses, who passed them down to Joshua
which were not written down. He READ them all.

Open Heart said:

You need to see things from other peoples POV or you may end up saying things about them that are not true. For example, if person believes their set of laws are TRUE, then they are not going to be afraid that God wouldn't help them keep it.

Click to expand...

So you think they could trust Yahweh and still believe
he would let anything that he commanded be lost?

Possible, but even if true, what came from before the
exile from Jerusalem may have filled one or two volumes,
but not the many volumes it is today.

Open Heart said:

Are you saying that the fact that some Jews in approximately AD 33 who participated in the crucifixion somehow diminishes what Jews have gone through over the next 2000 years or excuses the Christians who did it to them?

Click to expand...

No, it wasn't the only reason. They also neglected the land again.
Mostly, I think, because they rejected Yahweh by rejecting Yeshua.
As the spiritual leaders of Israel, the Rabbis and Sadducees were
culpable for the people. But the people had their own guilt, too.

"Let his blood be upon us, and our children."

Those who persecuted them had their own guilt.
Plenty of guilt to go around.

Open Heart said:

This is not accurate. You need to buff up on your knowledge of the Jewish-Roman wars and learn how Jews were literally accosting one another in the streets. Nothing to do with Yeshua. You will even find this information in Christian books about the era. The book I'm reading about Revelation, which goes into detail for all of the for different interpretations, talks a lot about the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temple while discussing the Preterist view. The violence of Jews against one another was horrific. It WAS, indeed, the reason Judea lost the war.

And Messianic Jews were not an improvement. They abandoned the fight and left the rest of Israel out to dry. Jew on Jew hatred. No wonder they got banned from the synagogues afterwards.

Click to expand...

Hellenized Jews verses zealots; religious Jews verses pagan Jews.
All symptoms of cold hearts fallen away from God, and who hated
Yeshua for showing it to them and not freeing them from Rome.
Pretty much just like this country and Europe today.

When Akiva named bar Kochba the messiah, it was purposely done
in order to keep the followers of Yeshua separate. They could not
follow a false messiah, even to war for Jerusalem. So they left.
Jewish Followers of Jesus and the Bar Kokhba Revolt: Re-examining the Christian Sources

This video gives an overview of the Oral Torah, especially as it pertains to understanding the New Testament. The video neither accepts nor challenges the idea that it originated at Sinai.


Give it a watch and let me know what you think.

pat34lee said:

"Let his blood be upon us, and our children."

Click to expand...

That's a slur of all slurs, invented by the Greek writers of the NT to excuse Romans from murdering a Jewish traveling preacher. A fuel and an excuse for two thousand years of genocide and hate. You want to know why Yeshua is excluded from Israel? Look no further.

danny ski said:

That's a slur of all slurs, invented by the Greek writers of the NT to excuse Romans from murdering a Jewish traveling preacher. A fuel and an excuse for two thousand years of genocide and hate. You want to know why Yeshua is excluded from Israel? Look no further.

Click to expand...

There was no excuse for the Romans, or for the Jews
who persecuted Yeshua and his followers. Or for the
new Roman Christians who turned around and did
the same to them.

Lulav said:

'their sect'?

It was oral until they became afraid that it would be lost, then it was written down.

What G-d told Adam in the Garden would be considered oral law as it wasn't written down either.

Yeshua had no problem with the oral law unless it usurped the Written one.

Click to expand...

What do you base this statement on, Lulav?

Yeshua had no problem with the oral law unless it usurped the Written one.

Rachel Rachel said:

What do you base this statement on, Lulav?

Click to expand...

Lulav, what do you mean by the above comment?
What scripture supports your comment?

Open Heart said:

Can you give me some examples of what you mean by laws to run the Mishkan that are not in the Torah?

Click to expand...

Well one example is that they used the work on the Mishkan to determine just what 'work' was, what not to do on Shabbat.

Rachel Rachel said:

Yeshua had no problem with the oral law unless it usurped the Written one.
Lulav, what do you mean by the above comment?
What scripture supports your comment?

Click to expand...

Well there's many , when Yeshua speaks to the Pharisees who believe they are doing what is righteous, he teaches them differently.

Yeshua celebrated Hanukkah, yet that was not a commandment, it was a tradition. It did not take away from G-ds law.

One of the greatest misunderstood passages about eating with unwashed hands is another example. It was never about food because those present there only called what G-d said was clean, 'food'. It was about following tradition.

Yet he admonished them for worrying over tithing the exact leaves of herbs than taking care of their elderly parents.

10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your Father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever you would have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift committed to God), 12 he is no longer permitted to do anything for his father or mother.…


7 They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’ 8 You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men.” 9He went on to say, “You neatly set aside the commandment of God to maintain your own tradition.…Mark 7

There's many more, but I think you may get the jist.

Lulav said:

Yeshua had no problem with the oral law unless it usurped the Written one.

Click to expand...

Rachel Rachel said:

Lulav, what do you mean by the above comment?

Click to expand...

Lulav said:

Well there's many , when Yeshua speaks to the Pharisees who believe they are doing what is righteous, he teaches them differently.

Yeshua celebrated Hanukkah, yet that was not a commandment, it was a tradition. It did not take away from G-ds law.

One of the greatest misunderstood passages about eating with unwashed hands is another example. It was never about food because those present there only called what G-d said was clean, 'food'. It was about following tradition.

Yet he admonished them for worrying over tithing the exact leaves of herbs than taking care of their elderly parents.

10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your Father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever you would have received from me is Corban’ (that is, a gift committed to God), 12 he is no longer permitted to do anything for his father or mother.…


7 They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.’ 8 You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men.” 9He went on to say, “You neatly set aside the commandment of God to maintain your own tradition.…Mark 7

There's many more, but I think you may get the jist.

Click to expand...

Well, I can see how these quotes work to show that Yeshua had a problem with Pharisees adding to the Law but I don't see anything that shows his approval of oral law.
But I won't press the point.....

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.


Oral Torah also teaches of the brachot, the blessings, which we see Yeshua doing on more than one occasion.

Also in the very begining of the book of Acts we see that the Apostles were keeping Oral Torah as well.

12 Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk from the city.

The distance one could travel was determined by Oral Law.

This same oral law also gave instructions on how to set up an eruv which would prove on many occasions where Yeshua did things on the Sabbath that he was not breaking the Sabbath, this includes healing the man and telling him to pick up his mat and walk.

Like I said, there are many places that you can find this if you read it within the context and time which it was written.

Rachel Rachel said:

Well, I can see how these quotes work to show that Yeshua had a problem with Pharisees adding to the Law but I don't see anything that shows his approval of oral law.
But I won't press the point.....

Click to expand...

No, it's not about making fences, it was about the priority.

Oral law does not (or should not, which is what he was teaching) override the written law.

I gave examples of that.

Lulav said:

Yeshua celebrated Hanukkah, yet that was not a commandment, it was a tradition. It did not take away from G-ds law.

Click to expand...

Difference of opinion here.

Yeshua was in the temple. He spent a lot of time in the temple,
but there is nothing saying he celebrated Hanukkah, and some
good reasons that he would not.
Hebrew Streams: Hanukkah and Yeshua