John 22-71 a case for Calvinism?

sdowney717

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Who makes us begotten again?
Whose will is it that we are born again? Ours or God's will?
What situation occurs that makes us born again? Something we do?
When does that happen?
Why does that happen?
Calvinism teaches the opposite of what many people think about being born again.

Jesus said in John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

See, here means to perceive, not enter into.
You can not perceive Jesus as the true Son of God, the Christ of God unless you are born again.
And if you can't even do that on your own, you wont be believing in Him, and what He says about your spiritual condition.
 
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hedrick

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There’s a kind of mystery about how people end up what they are. We can choose many things. We can even choose to change. But still, we don’t choose to be what we are, at least in the beginning. "The covenant of life is not preached equally to all, and among those to whom it is preached, does not always meet with the same reception." This is how Calvin starts the chapter on predestination. He says we have to assume that this is due to God's providence.

John implies that there are people who are Christ’s. His sheep hear his voice and recognize it. This is consistent with a concept that people respond depending upon what they are.

I think that’s at least a soft kind of predestination, in the sense that it recognizes that there’s something basic about us that isn’t our choice. However Calvin goes beyond that. It seems to me that most Christians would have to agree with him that the differences are part of God's plan. Where I find him hard to take is when he seems to say that God had a list of people he wanted to damn, and made sure that that happened.

The tern “Calvinism” has come to mean TULIP, which is a fairly “hard” form of predestination. That’s not entirely fair to Calvin, for whom predestination was only a part of theology, not always expressed in such a hard-core fashion. Indeed it wasn’t even there in the first edition of the Institutes. But it’s the way the term is typically used.

The community that developed from Calvin and Zwingli is called Reformed. Reformed Christianity is based on many themes, of which predestination is only one. Many of us don’t agree with all that Calvin said about predestination.
 
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dqhall

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There’s a kind of mystery about how people end up what they are. We can choose many things. We can even choose to change. But still, we don’t choose to be what we are, at least in the beginning. "The covenant of life is not preached equally to all, and among those to whom it is preached, does not always meet with the same reception." This is how Calvin starts the chapter on predestination. He says we have to assume that this is due to God's providence.

John implies that there are people who are Christ’s. His sheep hear his voice and recognize it. This is consistent with a concept that people respond depending upon what they are.

I think that’s at least a soft kind of predestination, in the sense that it recognizes that there’s something basic about us that isn’t our choice. However Calvin goes beyond that. It seems to me that most Christians would have to agree with him that the differences are part of God's plan. Where I find him hard to take is when he seems to say that God had a list of people he wanted to damn, and made sure that that happened.

The tern “Calvinism” has come to mean TULIP, which is a fairly “hard” form of predestination. That’s not entirely fair to Calvin, for whom predestination was only a part of theology, not always expressed in such a hard-core fashion. Indeed it wasn’t even there in the first edition of the Institutes. But it’s the way the term is typically used.

The community that developed from Calvin and Zwingli is called Reformed. Reformed Christianity is based on many themes, of which predestination is only one. Many of us don’t agree with all that Calvin said about predestination.
In the parable of the sower, Matthew 13, some will hear the word and produce a hundred fold more than was spent to train them. Others will be like kernels of wheat that did not mature to become productive.

A champion athlete finds reasons to train to become better. That faith is what separates an athlete from a couch potato. Likewise, a scholar will seek for a calling and good books or articles to read. That is what separates a scholar from a sports fan.

A philosophy that everything is already decided, why try, is a loser philosophy. I think those who went to study with Christ, like his 12 disciples, did better than those that did not believe it was worth their while. Eleven disciples were faithful, one went over to the enemy, Jesus made a net gain. His words are inspiring people almost 2000 years later.
 
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hedrick

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In the parable of the sower, Matthew 13, some will hear the word and produce a hundred fold more than was spent to train them. Others will be like kernels of wheat that did not mature to become productive.
That is actually a pointer to the kind of predestination I was talking about. The parable represents people as being different kind of soil. It doesn't talk about their decision, but the kind of soil they are.

Remember, I'm not embracing everything Calvin said. And I think people make real decisions. But there's a component about us and our lives that is given to us.
 
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sdowney717

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In the parable of the sower, Matthew 13, some will hear the word and produce a hundred fold more than was spent to train them. Others will be like kernels of wheat that did not mature to become productive.

A champion athlete finds reasons to train to become better. That faith is what separates an athlete from a couch potato. Likewise, a scholar will seek for a calling and good books or articles to read. That is what separates a scholar from a sports fan.

A philosophy that everything is already decided, why try, is a loser philosophy. I think those who went to study with Christ, like his 12 disciples, did better than those that did not believe it was worth their while. Eleven disciples were faithful, one went over to the enemy, Jesus made a net gain. His words are inspiring people almost 2000 years later.
To be saved, all must bear fruit for God.
Actually this is not too hard to understand.
Consider that God is the one doing the planting, the arranging, the orchestration of the lives of His people. God expects a crop of fruit, and He is going to make sure, if you are His that you bear fruit.

Matthew 3:10-11New King James Version (NKJV)
Matthew 3:10-11New King James Version (NKJV)

10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.[a]

That baptism which He does accomplishes the purpose for which He ordained it.

Another example combining predestination with bearing good fruit as ordained of God for His people.

John 15:15-17New King James Version (NKJV)
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

And this good fruit is the fruit of the Holy Spirit that God produces in your life!
Your life bears a crop of good fruit to God or you are NOT His child.

The fruits of the Holy Spirit, all believers should bear, if you are bearing these then, that is a very good sign you are His.

Galatians 5:19-23New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

For those who bear no fruit, they are cut down and cast into the fire.
The only ones in the parable of the sower to bear fruit, did so many fold.
They were the ones saved, all the others were not saved, they bore no fruit to maturity.
 
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St_Worm2

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My understanding of the Calvinist doctrine is that--from the beginning of the world, God only created so many people that will get into heaven, and the rest will end up in hell. Now, if one of those destined to hell somehow hears and believes the Gospel--and it's pretty hard to avoid--then, no matter how many times he answers an altar call, no matter how many times he goes to church, no matter how often he prays, no matter how hard he trusts in Jesus, he is still bound to hell, because God predestined him for hell.

Hi MB, whoever taught you what Calvinists believe/teach needs to return to school and at least try to stay awake in Reformed Theology 101 this time around ;)

We believe that faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ, the Gospel .. Romans 1:16; Romans 10:17. We also believe that all who desire to know God and who come to saving faith in Him, will be saved .. Romans 10:9-10; John 5:24. No exceptions! There will be none in Hell who have heard, believed and trusted in Jesus. NONE. That's what the Bible teaches, and that's what Reformed Theology teaches :preach:

BTW, the Bible teaches that those who are saved are elect/chosen/appointed/ordained/predestined by God for salvation from before the foundation of the world .. e.g. Ephesians 1:4-6; Romans 8:29-30. We also know that God works righteousness into the hearts of the elect, quickening those who were born in a state of spiritual death (thanks to our progenitor's sin), and thereby making believing possible .. e.g. Romans 5:12; Ephesians 2:1-3; Acts 13:48; cf Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3 (St. Paul calls this a "gift" from God in Ephesians 2:8-9, the gift of "saving faith" which we exercise when we choose to believe).

Also, that totally robs man of free will. If free will is an attribute of God (and it is), and we are made in God's image (which we are), THEN WE HAVE FREE WILL!

Agreed. The question is, what does that mean? What is free will :scratch:

I believe it is the ability to choose whatever we desire most at a given moment (even if that means NOT having a "great" desire, like a banana split, because our "greater" desire, in that moment at least, lies in being healthy, rather than in our sweet tooth ;)). So, unless we are being controlled by a 3rd party, IOW, by an external force of some kind, that is what we have, the free will to choose what we desire the most.

What say you? How do you describe/define "free will"?

Thanks!

--David
 
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friend of

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Also, that totally robs man of free will. If free will is an attribute of God (and it is), and we are made in God's image (which we are), THEN WE HAVE FREE WILL!

Yes, this is the part I totally agree with you on. I reject "hyper-Calvinism"
 
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St_Worm2

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...why evangelize? If God has to do ALL the work, and if (as Calvin taught) we have no free will, why bother spreading the word at all? If God wants them in heaven, then it is up to God to get them there, and all of the evangelism programs, ROMAN ROAD, EVANGELISM EXPLOSION, etc. are just a waste of time, paper, money and breath.

Hi MB, I'm not sure why God chose to involve us in evangelism, or why any of it, incl preaching, teaching, witnessing, hearing and believing, etc., is necessary, but it clearly is as we need to respond to the Gospel in faith to be saved (except for the infant/unborn children, the mentally infirmed, etc.). Again, Calvinism specifically teaches (along with the Bible) that "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" .. Romans 10:17 cf John 5:24.

Yours and His,
David
 
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St_Worm2

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Yes, this is the part I totally agree with you on. I reject "hyper-Calvinism"
Hi Friend Of, thank you for bringing up "Hyper-Calvinism", because the truth is, "Hyper"-Calvinism isn't "Calvinism" at all. In fact, I wonder whether they are Christians as they are extremely heretical in what they believe. Calvinism is a universe closer to Roman Catholicism than it is to "Hyper-Calvinism", IMHO anyway.

What it (Hyper-Calvinism) teaches is different than what we teach, but there are a myriad of anti-Calvin/anti-Calvinist websites out there who would have you believe otherwise. I used to believe crazy stuff about the RCC that simply was not true for the same reason.

If you really want to know what actual Calvinists believe, listen to/read what someone like Dr. R C Sproul or Dr. John MacArthur has to say (here or here for instance, or even on Amazon Prime now if you're a member .. search "Sproul"), or stop by Semper Reformanda here at CF and ask us on the "Ask a Calvinist" board.

Thanks!

In Christ,
David
 
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sdowney717

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That willingness to do God's will, comes from the new spirit, the new heart that God gives to all He regenerates, as in making them born again.

Even as it is taught in the OT, this is not a strange thing!
v20, that they may walk in His statutes, meaning they can will to do such, because God has given to them the new spirit, the new heart.

Ezekiel 11:18-20New King James Version (NKJV)
18 And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. 19 Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Why is it that so many believe the old man dead in their sin can will to do the things of God?
When scripture says differently?

It is the grace of God that enables you to choose the right things that are pleasing to Him, this is not of yourselves, yet so many claim that ability within them to do good and be good, except that is reserved only for God and those who He makes begotten again. No one in their flesh can please God.

Romans 8:8
So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
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TheSeabass

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Reading through Gospel of John 6 and immediately thought of predestination. I wouldn't classify myself as Calvinist and I accept I may have comprehension barriers others do not, (1 Corinthians 13:9-13 in my defense! :))

I do find its claims interesting to explore. John 6 was very striking in this regard, the whole predestination thing jumped out. What do you think? Will bold the most pertinent vereses...

.

The bible teaches predestination but not Calvinistic predestination.

God foreknew what Judas would choose to do when given the choice and God used Judas' free will choice to betray Christ to further His own plans in Christ dying for mankind.

In the "Salvation(Soteriology)" section there is a thread where a Calvinist says God predetermines all things but man has free will. The thread titled "THAT CALVINISTS DON'T BELIEVE IN FREE WILL - is the most often repeated lie in the forum" says:
God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.” - WESTMINSTER CONFESSION OF FAITH

Reformed doctrine (Calvinist, if you will) couldn’t be more emphatically clear in saying that God’s ordaining of all things which happen in His creation in no way makes Him the author of sin or infringes on the will and liberty of men to do as they will.

That being the case – why do so many insist on saying that the Reformed teaching of predestination denies the free will of men?"

If God preordained/predestined Judas and those Jews to crucify Christ, then it is God's wicked hands that committed this sin (Acts 2:23). God therefore is the author of sin. How can Judas and the Jews be blamed, held accountable for what God made>forced them to do thru preordination? What free will choice did Judas and the Jews have in what God supposedly preordained them to do against their will? None.
Matt 13, if God predetermined a person's heart as 'stony soil' where is the free will choice on part of the individual choosing what kind of 'soil' he is? There was none.
Matthew 13:15 men chose of their own free will to close their eyes and ears.


There is no lie being told about Calvinism, but there is a lack of logic found within Calvinism.
 
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TheSeabass

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Which means there is nothing going on in John 6:37 that does not involve the will of man....no arbitrary or unconditional choice made by God against the will of man or apart from the word being taught, heard and learned.

Judas betraying Christ was his free will choice and not preordain/predestined. Calvinist may believe man has free will yet at the same time, Calvinistic predestination does not allow for free will.
 
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John 6: 22-71 is not meant to be an easy passage and it drove most of Christ’s followers away and even drives people today away. It would take lots of explaining and the rest of Christ’s life and death to help these people to become followers.

First and foremost you have to realize this was said specifically to the group of people being addressed at that time and place. We need to understand the truths Jesus was trying to communicate to that specific group and not just take it like it is a sermon to us today without need of explaining.

Secondly we need to keep in mind how Christ responds to questions and comments, because Jesus does not “address” the verbalized comments or questions unless that is truly what is on their heart, but Jesus knows what is on their heart and address that specifically to help them move to the next spiritual level we might say. The response of Jesus may not be understandable by those being addressed at the time, but they will understand later even after the Kingdom comes to them on the day of Pentecost and even after that.

The masses are a very fickle group, so Jesus is not trying to amass a large following of them at this time, but the emphasis will always be on the small group (12 and 120).

In the end we have this: 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

Are we saying these disciples who turned back at this time are lost forever? Was Nicodemus lost forever after going to Christ at night?

Do you think Jesus looked at the hearts of all those and found only 11 elect, so He drives off the rest?

The encounter in John 6 comes fairly early in Christ’s ministry, so how much knowledge of Christ can the person have to build his/her faith on and what did they “believe” about Christ at this time?

Christ needs to get his group of followers down to those truly committed, since there is a long road ahead and He does not need lots “fans” needing lots of babying (He has enough of that with the 12).

Christ is not going to lie to the group or order them away, but, like God does, will allow them to leave of their own free will (it will be by there choice and they will not be able to later blame Jesus).

We talk about “works” and “faith only” but Jesus explains it with: 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Believe is the verb of the noun “Faith” so it means the same thing.

“Believe or faith” is not really a “work” you do (doing something to earn a wage) and the people would not recognize it as a “work” the same as we do not recognize faith as a work. In the Kingdom that comes with Pentecost (and has always really been the case), faith will be the only thing the person does bring to relationship which is not a “work” as defined by man.

They ask a strait forward honest question which Jesus answers directly, but they asked “What must we do…” and Jesus did not answer “you can do nothing”, which seems to be the correct Calvin answer?

The “ye believe” is referring to those who asked Him and they will also walk away, so could they have believe or is Jesus misleading them by telling them to do something they cannot do?

Let’s look at your specific verses:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

And

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

If someone leaves it will not be Christ’s fault since He did not cast them out or lose them, so the question is who is the Father “giving to Jesus”?

32…. it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.

40. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life

45. …They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

All those that hear, see, learn and believe come (are given) to Jesus and it is the Father’s doing, since it is God who “taught” them. This is not saying those God implanted with faith and knowledge or a soft heart, but who were taught and believed.

The question is thus: “How did this faith come about?”

All mature adults have a God given faith in something or someone, but not everyone directs that faith/trust toward the creator (again faith is not work).

Next verses;

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

“draw” is the same word “invite” and we know everyone at the banquet has been invited (drawn there by the Master), but some refused the draw (invitation) of their own free will.

Next verse:

64. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.


65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus knows like God knows who will be saved and who will be lost, but again it will not be God’s or Christ’s fault since they do their part perfectly and really treat everyone equally, giving the same opportunities for the willing individual to fulfill his/her earthly objective.

Again the person must be taught by God and believe.

Next verse:


70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

So did Jesus make Judas hell bound or did Jesus do all He could to help Judas not to be lost, but it was still up to Judas? Jesus knew Judas would never repent, but that did not relieve Jesus of His actions toward Judas to help him.

These verses in John 6 do not take man’s free will ability away, but tell us more about what God and Christ are doing, their part in the process with “faith” being man’s part.
So in essence are you saying that Judus was not 'God taught' even tho he was chosen by Jesus?
 
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Monk Brendan

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We believe that faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ,

The KJV renders it "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Yes, The Son (Jesus, the anointed One) IS the Word, but the Son is only part of God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing of the Word of God. It requires more than just an open ear. It also requires an open heart, which means that the Holy Spirit has a part to do in a person's salvation.

I believe it is the ability to choose whatever we desire most at a given moment (even if that means NOT having a "great" desire, like a banana split, because our "greater" desire, in that moment at least, lies in being healthy, rather than in our sweet tooth ;)). So, unless we are being controlled by a 3rd party, IOW, by an external force of some kind, that is what we have, the free will to choose what we desire the most.

What say you? How do you describe/define "free will"?

But if God has "elected" someone, and "unelected" someone, then He has removed that ultimate "greater desire." And THAT is the highest free will we can exercise. In other words, if we choose God by our own free will, we are not robots, but rather, we are able to freely love Him, and freely embrace His love for us.

On the other hand, if we are "elect," what can we do EXCEPT love Him and worship Him. But let me ask you a question. What would you rather have (along the lines of greater desire) in a spouse. A mindless slave that MUST do all you ask, or someone that loves you out of her own free will?

God is not so small minded for us to think He wants absolute mindless obedience. You should know that. God wants us to worship, trust and obey because WE desire to, because WE love HIM. Granted, He loved us first, but how is a newborn taught love? By being loved.

If we bow down and worship God because we are robots, what type of God is that?

BTW, I am not a Reformed theologian--I am a monk in an Unreformed First cut, pure, unfiltered, unrefined Church, learned from Fathers (theologians, if you will) that were born a thousand years before Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, or the rest.
 
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Monk Brendan

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Hi MB, I'm not sure why God chose to involve us in evangelism, or why any of it, incl preaching, teaching, witnessing, hearing and believing, etc., is necessary, but it clearly is as we need to respond to the Gospel in faith to be saved (except for the infant/unborn children, the mentally infirmed, etc.). Again, Calvinism specifically teaches (along with the Bible) that "faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" .. Romans 10:17 cf John 5:24.

And THAT is the ultimate reason that Calvinism falls down. "I don't know," is just as lame an excuse as, "I was just following orders."

On the other hand, if we truly love our neighbor, then aren't we BOUND by that love to share with them the love we have with God? Obviously! There are lost souls out there, and it is up to US to lead them to Christ. If we DON'T do it, then we are just as bound for hell as they are.

I KNOW that what I am doing is necessary for His plan for my salvation, and the salvation of the world. It may not be a lot, but praying, washing dishes, typesetting and writing are what He has called me to do in these last years of my life.
 
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hedrick

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And THAT is the ultimate reason that Calvinism falls down. "I don't know," is just as lame an excuse as, "I was just following orders."

On the other hand, if we truly love our neighbor, then aren't we BOUND by that love to share with them the love we have with God?
I think this is a misreading of St_Worm2's post.

What he was saying is that he doesn't know why God has set up the world so we're involved in the process of saving others. God could have arranged for everyone to know him directly. If you know why God created the world the way he did, you have insight beyond any Christian I know. I don't see that this is even a specifically Calvinist point of view, though it's certainly the answer R C Sproul gave when one of my classmates asked the question.

But given that God has given us the privilege of being involved in saving others, then you are absolutely right that love of our neighbor inspires us to do it.
 
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Forgive me, but I don't see them using the Eucharist. Using the clear text of the verse, there must be the Body and Blood of Jesus--the Real Presence, if you will. I've been to all sorts of churches, including Calvinist, and I've never seen ANYTHING even close to that. Some churches will trot out wafers and grape juice, and maybe someone will pray, but in the explanation, they refer to the actions as a symbol, instead of the real thing.
 
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