SDA: Satan Will Die for Your Sins

Dale said:

One of the few points where I agree with the SDA is that they reject the notion of a "rapture," or a rapture separate from the Second Coming. Of course, they reject it because their founder never heard of it because the idea hadn't gotten started yet.

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Actually, the doctrine was well established, originally by Paul in I Thessalonians 4.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Dale said:

No, I am not SDA and I do not believe "this stuff."

I am trying to show that Ellen White goes far beyond the Bible in her claims.

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Now that would be absolutely correct. She would be considered a "False Prophet".

Dale said:

Christianity has always taught that Jesus died for our sins, yours, mine and everyone's, on the cross. Ellen White, founding prophetess of the Seventh Day Adventists, had some unconventional ideas. While she sometimes taught that Jesus died for our sins, she has also taught that Satan will be made to die for the same sins. She associates this belief with the Old Testament scapegoat. Satan will be the final scapegoat. One characteristic of Ellen White is that she mentions Satan almost as often as she mentions God.

Ellen White:
"Since Satan is the originator of sin, the direct instigator of all the sins that caused the death of the Son of God, justice demands that Satan shall suffer the final punishment. Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty. So in the typical service, the yearly round of ministration closed with the purification of the sanctuary, and the confessing of the sins on the head of the scapegoat."

This quote is from Patriarchs and Prophets, Chapter 30: The Tabernacle and its Services. (Kindle Location 5720-5725) Patriarchs and Prophets is the first of five books which are part of the Conflict of Ages series, or Conflict of Ages Collection.

Ellen White, Conflict of Ages Collection:
Patriarchs and Prophets, Prophets and Kings, The Desire of Ages, The Acts of the Apostles,
The Great Controversy

Ellen White: "Now they are eternally secure from the tempter's devices. Their sins are transferred to the originator of sin."

While this quote doesn't refer to Satan by name, it calls him the "originator of sin," which is clear enough. It also doesn't mention Satan receiving the "penalty," but it does say that Satan will receive the sins of the redeemed. The quote is from Prophets and Kings, Chapter 47: Joshua and the Angel. (Kindle Location 18418)

Ellen White: "When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat. When Christ, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners."

Ellen White doesn't believe in hell. Her statement that Satan "will be blotted from existence" reflects this view, that instead of being cast into an eternal hell, Satan and his followers will be destroyed body and soul. This quote is from the last book of the series, The Great Controversy, Chapter 23: What is the Sanctuary? (Kindle location 44929-44934)

Earlier in the same chapter there is an indirect reference to this process, which tells us that sins are transferred to "the heavenly sanctuary."

Ellen White: "As anciently the sins of the people were by faith placed upon the sin offering and through its blood transferred, in figure, to the earthly sanctuary, so in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary."
(Kindle Locations 44918-44920)

Ellen White: "In like manner, when the work of atonement in the heavenly sanctuary has been completed, then in the presence of God and heavenly angels and the hosts of the redeemed the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan; he will be declared guilty of all the evil which he has caused them to commit. And as the scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, so Satan will be banished to the desolate earth, an uninhabited and dreary wilderness."

This quote is from The Great Controversy, Chapter 41: Desolation of the Earth (Kindle Locations 48,351-48,356)

Ellen White: "The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit."

This quote is from the last chapter of the last book of the series. It is from The Great Controversy, Chapter 42: The Controversy Ended (Kindle Location 48495-48501)

This notion that Satan will specifically suffer for the sins he has tempted mortals to commit is not the only novel idea in Ellen White.

Ellen White: "When Christ died, the destruction of Satan was made certain."

This quote is from Patriarchs and Prophets, Chapter 4: The Plan of Redemption. (Kindle Location 1286)

I would have thought that the destruction of Satan was certain when he rebelled and was thrown out of heaven.

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You stated.................
"I would have thought that the destruction of Satan was certain when he rebelled and was thrown out of heaven."

May I say to you that the idea you posted is not correct. Satan will NOT BE DESTROYED!

Revelation 20:10..........
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Satan and his demons will be punished throughout eternity.

Ellen G. White was a proponent of the "Annialation Theology" which is totally in-Biblical.

bbbbbbb said:

Well you can take that matter up with Jesus Christ, who said,

Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, 46 [where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

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Jesus has taken or quoted this passage from Isaiah 66:24, which says,
"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not fie, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrent unto all flesh."
Carcases are not disembodied souls burning in hell. They are dead.
The work of the work is to decompose something which WAS living. The Hebrews were very concerned over the body because of their hope in the resurection. To abandon a body of an enemy to worms or bring of the bones was the perfect revenge.
The word "hell" used in Mark 9:44 comes from the Greek word Gehenna, or the Valley of Gehenna where the Jews saw burning bodies every day, as an illustration of hellfire. The fact that the fires in Gehenna were ever kept burning proves that whoever was put in them was consumed. A fire that is ever burning but to declare that anyone in it is ever living goes against the Bible.

AvaLynn said:

Jesus has taken or quoted this passage from Isaiah 66:24, which says,
"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not fie, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrent unto all flesh."
Carcases are not disembodied souls burning in hell. They are dead.
The work of the work is to decompose something which WAS living. The Hebrews were very concerned over the body because of their hope in the resurection. To abandon a body of an enemy to worms or bring of the bones was the perfect revenge.
The word "hell" used in Mark 9:44 comes from the Greek word Gehenna, or the Valley of Gehenna where the Jews saw burning bodies every day, as an illustration of hellfire. The fact that the fires in Gehenna were ever kept burning proves that whoever was put in them was consumed. A fire that is ever burning but to declare that anyone in it is ever living goes against the Bible.

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If what you say is true, then I, for one, would not cut off my hand or my foot or any other precious part of my body to merely avoid annihilation. There is no doubt that Jesus meant exactly what He said.

AvaLynn said:

Jesus has taken or quoted this passage from Isaiah 66:24, which says,
"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not fie, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrent unto all flesh."
Carcases are not disembodied souls burning in hell. They are dead.
The work of the work is to decompose something which WAS living. The Hebrews were very concerned over the body because of their hope in the resurection. To abandon a body of an enemy to worms or bring of the bones was the perfect revenge.
The word "hell" used in Mark 9:44 comes from the Greek word Gehenna, or the Valley of Gehenna where the Jews saw burning bodies every day, as an illustration of hellfire. The fact that the fires in Gehenna were ever kept burning proves that whoever was put in them was consumed. A fire that is ever burning but to declare that anyone in it is ever living goes against the Bible.

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Really!

Luke 16:23..............
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

Luke 16:24................
"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Luke 16:25..............
"But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

Rev. 20:10................
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

AvaLynn said:

Jesus has taken or quoted this passage from Isaiah 66:24, which says,
"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not fie, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrent unto all flesh."
Carcases are not disembodied souls burning in hell. They are dead.
The work of the work is to decompose something which WAS living. The Hebrews were very concerned over the body because of their hope in the resurection. To abandon a body of an enemy to worms or bring of the bones was the perfect revenge.
The word "hell" used in Mark 9:44 comes from the Greek word Gehenna, or the Valley of Gehenna where the Jews saw burning bodies every day, as an illustration of hellfire. The fact that the fires in Gehenna were ever kept burning proves that whoever was put in them was consumed. A fire that is ever burning but to declare that anyone in it is ever living goes against the Bible.

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My dear friend, "Annialation" of the body is NOT found anywhere in the Bible.

Annihilationists accept concept of hell which was invented by an antagonist named "Dante".

Most people who believe the false teaching of Annialiation do so because they do not understand the justice of God by eternally punishing the wicked. Yet we also do not understand the grace of God by rewarding the saved with eternal life. On human terms, we cannot understand either "kindness and severity of God" according to Rom 11:22.

Ok, so I'm going to write what I believe on the doctrine of hell just so everyone understands and I don't have to write the same thing over again. Please read it all as I don't want to have to repeat myself.
- In the Garden of Eden, Satan tempted Eve at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree or else they will surely die (Genesis 2:17). When Satan tempted Eve, he said, " You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." The underlined words, "You shall not surely die" was the first lie ever told. Satan is still telling the world and its inhabitants that today. Whether it be through mediums or seances, or through the deception that we will be tormented and living in hell forever if we are lost. Don't be deceived!
- Romans 6:23- " For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life." If the lost are burning forever and ever in hell, it is eternal life. That notion sharply contradicts this Bible passage. The death mentioned in this verse is the second death, or the final penalty for sin at the end of time, where sinners are blotted out of existence, or annihilated.
- The wicked do not have immortality. This attribute is only Gods and His alone. (1 Timothy 6:16) Only at the Second Coming of Jesus will eternal life be given to the righteous. (1 Corinthians 15:53) If the wicked do not have immortality, it is impossible for them to live eternally in hell fire.
1 Corinthians 15:53 says, " For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality."
- The wicked will be annihilated and destroyed completely.
Malachi 4:1,3- "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven. And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, that will leave them neither root nor branch... You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet, On the day I do this, says the Lord of hosts." That's pretty clear, isn't it?
Psalms 37:10 tells us, "For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; indeed you will look carefully for his place, but it shall be no more."
Revelation 21:8- "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
- Even John 3:16 tells us this fact. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life." Those who don't believe in Christ, will, in sharp contrast, perish or die the second death in the lake of fire.The verse doesn't say, that whosoever believeth in Jesus, should not be tormented in hell for eternity, but have everlasting life. It says perish. That is the sad fate of the wicked.
- What is God? The Bible tells us that God is Love. God is Just. His attributes are Perfect and He hands outs judgment toward the wicked that is fair. It isn't a fair judgment for sinners to burn for billions of years or all of eternity for 70 years of sin. Satan paints God as a wrathful tyrant, but that's not who He is. He is merciful and His punishment for the wicked in the Bible is just. They don't have to suffer for all of eternity, but instead are blotted from the face of the earth, in separation from God.
1 John 4:8- "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."
Ezekiel 33:11 says, "Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn ye from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Isreal?" If God is such a loving God, that He hurts when the wicked die, how is it possible that He would cause sinners to be tormented forever? He is not cruel. He is merciful.
-Other verses that teach us about the total destruction of the wicked are:
Isaiah 1:28- "The destruction of transgressors and of sinners shall be together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed."
2 Peter 2:3- "...for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber."
All these verses speak of the wicked's total destruction after a period of time. Now, there are a few Biblical passages that may seem to support the idea of torment forever, but I will clarify them as they have been brought up multiple times in this discussion.
Revelation 20:10- "The devil who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Now, we must remember that when we read the Bible, we have to take it in context with other verses.
Jonah 2:6 tells us,"...The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O Lord, my God." Now, this verse is talking about when Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days until God delivered him. Why would he use the term forever?
1 Samuel 1:22- "But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, 'Not until the child is weaned; then I will take him, that he may appear before the Lord and remain there forever." Is Samuel still at the temple right now?
Exodus 21:6- "...He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." Again, is that servant still serving his master to this day?
The phrases "forever" and "forever and ever" actually mean an indefinite period of time, the limits which are determined by the nature of a person, thing, or circumstance. Obviously, Samuel is not in the temple right now. He was in the temple for an indefinite period of time. So, in this context, there will be an end to the torment, and then the person will be annihilated.
Another verse that is misunderstood is Jude 1:7 which says, " As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to theses, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." The fires of Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning now, so what could that mean? When this verse uses the term eternal, it is not talking about a fire that lasts forever, but rather the consequences of the fire are eternal. They do not change and the wicked will never receive life again, after the second death. The results are irreversible and complete.
The last matter I will address is the parable of Lazarus in Luke 16: 19-31.
When Jesus spoke in parables, it was meant to be a symbolic and figurative story. He wanted His listeners to have to think about the meaning. Matthew 13 tells us. He spoke to His listeners in parables because they did not understand. ( Matthew 13:13) We are not to take them literally. To take this parable literally would be quite a conundrum, as there are many other things wrongs in the story such as praying to Abraham. It would be very disturbing to look from heaven dwon to hell and watch your family burning and one finger dipped in water would not quench one's thirst. There are too many other problems with this story to be taken any other way but figuratively.
Basically, the rich man represents the Pharisees, or those who have access and freedom to the Word of God. Lazarus represents those people who had nothing spiritually and received nothing from the Pharisees. He was basically a Gentile, who got crumbs from the master's table. He had received nothing spiritually. Knowledge of God was given to the Jews to share and be a blessing to others, but the Jews were using it for their own selfish gain. When the rich man wanted to send Lazarus to his Fathers house to warn them, Abraham refused because they already had Moses and the Prophets. The Jews did not believe then, even though the had the Word, and they wouldn't be persuaded, though Jesus performed miracles. Even though, Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead, the Jews did not change. If this parable were to be used literally then it would not have been prudent to use Lazarus's name, as he was not dead then.
So, I believe the wicked may be punished for an indefinited period of time, before they will be completely and utterly destroyed! That will be the second death!
That is my view on hell, based on the Word of God. Thanks for reading!

Dale said:

On the contrary, Bbbb, that verse definitely doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. One problem is that Paul wrote Thessalonians as Afterlife 101 and Dispensationalists insist on reading it as Paul's Advanced Treatise on the End Times.

I've done a number of threads against the Rapture, or the notion of Rapture separate from the Second Coming.

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"Taken" & "Left"

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Thanks.

Dale said:

You do manage a positive reply!

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Although it isn't always easy, I do try.

Dale said:

No, I am not SDA and I do not believe "this stuff."

I am trying to show that Ellen White goes far beyond the Bible in her claims.

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I think it's interesting comparing the scapegoat with satan... but the goat was innocent which is where that metaphor falls apart; Satan certainly is not innocent. I see the scapegoat as the figure of Christ and I think the building context of the scapegoat fits better.

As usual, thread drift occurring here. The original post was discussing the goat sent into the wilderness and being compared to Satan being the final one to carry sin to his death. Since I tend to believe God does not waste symbols, and Jesus said "He that hath ears, let him hear," I have not heard any one those who do not believe the goat sent into the wilderness is representative of Satan being punished for sins offering up any other rational ideas of what that symbols represents.

IMHO, while Satan may be punished for all the sins, it is not a redemptive event. Jesus, in dying, redeemed God's people, not Satan.

WindHund said:

As usual, thread drift occurring here. The original post was discussing the goat sent into the wilderness and being compared to Satan being the final one to carry sin to his death. Since I tend to believe God does not waste symbols, and Jesus said "He that hath ears, let him hear," I have not heard any one those who do not believe the goat sent into the wilderness is representative of Satan being punished for sins offering up any other rational ideas of what that symbols represents.

IMHO, while Satan may be punished for all the sins, it is not a redemptive event. Jesus, in dying, redeemed God's people, not Satan.

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It is a pity that there was no poll attached to this thread. For your benefit, I do not believe this doctrine of Mrs. White's and I am hardly alone in my rejection of it.

If you read the posts in this thread you will observe that several posters have provided a perfectly adequate explanation for you. However, as with any extra-biblical doctrine you appear to be fully committed to it and refuse to consider the understanding of the vast majority of Christian teachers.