Body or Carcass and Eagle or Vulture - Help deceide

Matthew and Luke give an entirely different account of the the phrase where the body/carcass is there the eagles/vultures will gather. This thread will be for determining which version is more accurate.

The Greeks have a word for vultures and its not used in the text, instead eagles is in the text. Eagles will eat a carcass, so eagle still fits with carcass. The translators give you "vulture" to avoid confusion. Some translations will even translate "body" as corpse for Luke, but the word is not actually corpse in luke. Matthew calls it a carcass and Luke calls it a body and each of them place this phrase in an entirely different position in Jesus's speech. See below.

Luke 17:22-37
"22 And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look, there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them. 24 For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— 30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. 35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the BODY is, there the EAGLES" will gather.”

Matthew 24:15-28
“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

I'll say first that I think Matthew has it wrong here for one really big reason. If you compare Matthews account of the abomination of desolation you immediately think of the end of the world, but if you compare it to Luke you know this is the destruction of the 2nd Temple and the Diaspora and it's focused on a certain people.

Luke 21:20-24
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

All of this comes with the backdrop of the "Gathering of the Elect" for the wedding feast.
Matthew 24:31 "31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Luke 13:29 " And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at [the] table in the kingdom of God.

• 1) If we take Matthew then it leads to the account of Revelation 19:17-18 and Ezekiel 39:17 which is the feast of the birds upon the slain of Jesus coming.
• 2)If we take Luke it leads to the gathering to Christ in the Rapture.

This is a big split. How do you think we should take it? Is it the feast of the birds or the gathering to Christ?

BABerean2 said:

The Word of God is never "wrong".

You may want to use a different word.

.

Click to expand...

What word would you suggest I use? missarranged? misspelled? They each place the phrase at different parts of the speech, and use a different Greek word within the phrase. One uses Soma, one uses Ptoma.

In any case I'm not saying God has it wrong, I'm saying Matthew has it wrong. I believe God inspired the works of the Bible but I don't believe that he made Matthew infallible and topically omniscient.

Hank77 said:

YLT
Mat_24:28 for wherever the carcase may be, there shall the eagles be gathered together.
Luk_17:37 And they answering say to him, `Where, sir?' and he said to them, `Where the body is , there will the eagles be gathered together.'

In both verses the Greek word translated as 'eagle' is the same.
Matthew is more specific in describing the body as a 'dead body' while Luke just says 'body'.

I fail to see where there is any different account.



I don't think it leads to either one, unless you have been taught that this is a future event. For me it is past and an ongoing present action.
The eagles are the Romans and yes the bodies are dead bodies.
The saints have been being gathered together into the Body of Christ and still are. Messengers in the Bible is not always referring to literal angels, but to God's human messagers obeying His command to spread the Gospel message.
Paul describes the resurrection of the saints, not a separate event that some call The Rapture.

Click to expand...

I think harmonization is a good thing to do where we can, and this seems like a valid harmonization. The only thing that makes me hesitant is that Luke shows himself to be a better historian when it comes to the accounts both Matthew and Luke share. There is also the arrangement of where this saying appears. It's abrupt in Matthew but in Luke it shows up in a place that makes sense. Along with a question by the Disciples that anyone would ask, "where are they taken?". I think all that would have to be taken into account.

Dave Watchman said:

Luke 21's "Jerusalem surrounded by armies", is not the same thing as Matthew 24's "Abomination of desolation". Luke 17 took out the AofD from Matthew 24 to help us understand what it would be and give more detail of it's repercussions. Just like on the day that Lot left out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven. That will be what will kick off and become the catalyst for our end time tribulation. A quarter of the population will suffer sudden destruction. Then Lucifer will be allowed to kill a third of who remains. So that when Revelation 19 comes along, only less than half the people will attend the great feast.

Maybe if they are silent in Heaven for 30 minutes prior to the start of this, the Elect should be silent on the Earth prior to the start of this as well?

Click to expand...

I actually think Matthew and Mark, the writers, added the AofDs. Both include the "(let the reader understand)" after the saying. I think Matthew and Mark were trying to make this section covert to Roman eyes because the Luke 21 explicit version might get them in trouble with the Romans. By adding in this AofD as a writers note, the Jewish readers would know right away what to look for.

Hank77 said:

Where are who taken?

Click to expand...

The only description of the "who" is described in Luke 17:34 "I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. 35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the BODY is, there the EAGLES" will gather.”"

Hank77 said:

If we are to believe that they made mistakes in their gospels then we cannot trust that any of the book is correct. If what they wrote was inspired by God, there are not any mistakes made through communications with other people.

Click to expand...

I don't follow that logically. There are mistakes in college textbooks and yet they are trusted. Scripture is not downloaded, it's not automatic writing. These writers, like Journalists, had to go through early writings (Q) and testimonies of witnesses to complete their Gospel. They were not given topical omniscience and infallibility. However, if your faith requires that all scripture is omniperfect then please think no more of this topic.

The differences in the 4 gospels make them multiple attestations of Jesus. The differences are actually used in Apologetics, in confirming the 4 historical facts of Jesus's death, His burial, the empty tomb, and His post Morten appearances. If God chose to inspire Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John through automatic writing then the historical witness of Jesus would suffer.