Necessity of an Interval between the Rapture and the 2nd Coming

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And you can point to this "FAITH" that's being departed from in the 2 Thess. 2 passages I assume. BE MY GUEST, try to point to where its speaks about Faith anywhere in that passage I dare you to find it.


Can you point to “earth“ as being departed from????

Let’s look at the only other time in the NT the word “apostasia “ is used and see what It means there. That might help us to determine what it really means.

Acts21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Did those that forsook Moses’s saying leave the planet to accomplish this??? You be the judge.


Now I will HIGHLIGHT the places where the Departure is speaking of the Church being Raptured/Gathered unto the Lord. And when the Anti-Christ is allowed to come forth. I see no place in the passage where FAITH is spoken of.

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (Wrath of God), except there come a falling (DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH) away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (KATECHO Binds/holds down fast) will let (HOLD DOWN), until he be taken out of the way (Holy Spirit ALLOWS him to Come forth when Jesus breaks the First Seal). 8 And then shall that Wicked(Anti-Christ) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


I notice you highlighted (inserted your own interpretation) in parentheses.

Now I will highlight places where Paul agreed with himself about a “departing” from the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
 
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Copperhead

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I gave quotes from the Geneva Bible and Wycliffe Bible, figured I would add the Tyndale Bible....

3Let no man deceive you by any means, for the Lord cometh not, except there come a departing first, and that that sinful man be opened, the son of perdition

2 Thessalonians 2 Tyndale New Testament

The previous ones I posted and the this one all come from bibles that were translated before the KJV, and were translated 300 years before Darby espoused any recent dispensationalist thing.
 
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BABerean2

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I gave quotes from the Geneva Bible and Wycliffe Bible, figured I would add the Tyndale Bible....

3Let no man deceive you by any means, for the Lord cometh not, except there come a departing first, and that that sinful man be opened, the son of perdition

2 Thessalonians 2 Tyndale New Testament

The previous ones I posted and the this one all come from bibles that were translated before the KJV, and were translated 300 years before Darby espoused any recent dispensationalist thing.

From the 1599 Geneva Bible

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: (3) for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and (e) that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(3) The apostle foretells that before the coming of the Lord, there will be a throne set up completely contrary to Christ's glory, in which that wicked man will sit, and transfer all things that appertain to God to himself: and many will fall away from God to him.

(e) By speaking of one, he singles out the person of the tyrannous and persecuting antichrist.

.....................................................................................

Nothing above refers to a pretrib removal of the Church.

That idea comes from the imaginations of men who ignore the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

.
 
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Copperhead

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Can you point to “earth“ as being departed from????

Let’s look at the only other time in the NT the word “apostasia “ is used and see what It means there. That might help us to determine what it really means.

Acts21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Did those that forsook Moses’s saying leave the planet to accomplish this??? You be the judge.





I notice you highlighted (inserted your own interpretation) in parentheses.

Now I will highlight places where Paul agreed with himself about a “departing” from the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

No, one cannot point that the earth is being departed from. Apostasia in this verse should just be by itself as departure, the departure, a departure. Not defined by any other meaning.

And what is the words used in 1 Tmothy 4:1? not Apostasia like in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Same root, but different word. And, as Kenneth Wuest, a well known Greek scholar has stated in the multi volume work on the Greed NT, for Apostasia to mean something like falling away, one has to show what is being fallen away from. And Paul did that in 1 Timothy 4:1. The faith was what was being fallen or departed from. The same thing in Acts 21:21, where Apostosia is used and the reference of Moses (the Law) is what is shown to be departing or falling away from.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 doesn't give the luxury of taking those kinds of liberties. It does not show what is being departed from in the text, so it should just stand on it's own as departure. The earlier translators realized that and did just that. And they were much closer to the original Greek and meanings of such things that we are so they should have known.

So it would be equally correct to say that it doesn't even say departing from the earth. But Falling Away is adding to the text and implying something that the original text did not say and adding translator commentary. The translation should just simply be departure without commentary on the word.
 
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Copperhead

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From the 1599 Geneva Bible

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: (3) for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and (e) that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

(3) The apostle foretells that before the coming of the Lord, there will be a throne set up completely contrary to Christ's glory, in which that wicked man will sit, and transfer all things that appertain to God to himself: and many will fall away from God to him.

(e) By speaking of one, he singles out the person of the tyrannous and persecuting antichrist.

.....................................................................................

Nothing above refers to a pretrib removal of the Church.

That idea comes from the imaginations of men who ignore the fact that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

.

Problem is, the link above your post referred to shows the American Standard Version. I posted links elsewhere that shows the text from the referenced bibles themselves. It is disingenuous to post a translation and say it is from a particular bible and not provide supporting evidence of that. I did provide that in the 3 different translation references so that someone could not say that I pulled them out of my hat to post.

Well, since the verse says that a departure must come before the man of sin is revealed as evidenced in the 3 translations I posted complete with links for others to see for themselves, then how would you take that? Post Trib? Mid Trib? When is the man of sin or perdition revealed? After the tribulation?

And when does the defining point of a falling away, if that is what the text is saying, occur? There has been falling away or departing from the faith since the church began. What is the defining point of that falling away that would be the trigger for the man of sin to be revealed so that someone reading the verse could point to that time? We know that this man of sin or perdition is going to be on the scene for the duration of Daniel's 70th week, so before he shows up, how does one determine that a significant enough "falling away" has occurred? What percentage and how would we know for certain that those who fell away were actually part of the faith to begin with and not just pew warmers?

But, a departure, now everyone is going to recognize that event and have no doubt when the man of sin or perdition shows up. No hidden mysteries as to the event and whether the guy is the false messiah or whatever.

It is this falling away assumption that has led to all the squabbling about when things will happen, when it should have been easily understood. And a significant portion of both OT and NT textual references fit within a pre-trib removal classification. A a matter of fact, all OT references to such things gives the idea of a removal or protection before these events of Daniel's 70th week / time of Jacob's trouble / Great Tribulation comes along. And given that the only scripture the Bereans had to see if what Paul taught them was true was the OT, it might be wise to look at it the same.
 
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Postvieww

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No, one cannot point that the earth is being departed from. Apostasia in this verse should just be by itself as departure, the departure, a departure. Not defined by any other meaning.

And what is the words used in 1 Tmothy 4:1? not Apostasia like in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Same root, but different word. And, as Kenneth Wuest, a well known Greek scholar has stated in the multi volume work on the Greed NT, for Apostasia to mean something like falling away, one has to show what is being fallen away from. And Paul did that in 1 Timothy 4:1. The faith was what was being fallen or departed from. The same thing in Acts 21:21, where Apostosia is used and the reference of Moses (the Law) is what is shown to be departing or falling away from.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 doesn't give the luxury of taking those kinds of liberties. It does not show what is being departed from in the text, so it should just stand on it's own as departure. The earlier translators realized that and did just that. And they were much closer to the original Greek and meanings of such things that we are so they should have known.

So it would be equally correct to say that it doesn't even say departing from the earth. But Falling Away is adding to the text and implying something that the original text did not say and adding translator commentary. The translation should just simply be departure without commentary on the word.

Ok let’s put you theory to test in context.

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering (departure) together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (day of departure) is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Day of departure) shall not come, except there come a falling away (departure) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Verse 3 makes no sense with your definition.

The problem here is if we leave the text alone it makes sense, if we get into the “private interpretations” it makes no sense.

To make “falling away” mean what you want it to mean you have to redefine “gathering”, “day of Christ” and “that day” to make it say what you need it to say.

I notice you did not comment on Acts 21:21.

My intent was not to imply 1 Timothy 4:1 uses the same word, but it does confirm the same point as Acts 21;21 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which do use the same Greek word.
 
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Postvieww

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And when does the defining point of a falling away, if that is what the text is saying, occur? There has been falling away or departing from the faith since the church began


Paul says “in the latter times”.


What is the defining point of that falling away that would be the trigger for the man of sin to be revealed so that someone reading the verse could point to that time?


The text does not say the falling away is the “trigger” for the man of sin, it only says both will occur before “that day”.


We know that this man of sin or perdition is going to be on the scene for the duration of Daniel's 70th week, so before he shows up, how does one determine that a significant enough "falling away" has occurred? What percentage and how would we know for certain that those who fell away were actually part of the faith to begin with and not just pew warmers?


This text cannot be rightly divided by what if’s and how’s.
 
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Quasar92

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The departing referred to was that of a departing from the faith and truth. Wycliffe and Calvin were both Protestant Reformers who declared that the papacy which they were exposing and opposing was antichrist, under which the true Church had already been suffering for centuries. They knew nothing of a rapture, and if they had, they were more than acutely aware that no rapture had occurred.

Their departure was a falling away, not a flying away.


The theme of 2 Thess.2, for the passage consisting of verses 1-8, is verse one, which paraphrased states the following: "About the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to Him." Which is a diredct reference to 1 Thess.4:17. W#hich so states, paraphrased: "After that, we who are left and still alive will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER [With those who previously died in Christ] to meet the Lord in the air/sky."

In verse 2, of 2 Thess.2, Paul states that contrary to the false teachings they have heard, the Day of the Lord HAS NOT come.

In verse 3, it states the Day of the Lord WILL NOT COME until the "apostasia" takes place, the Greek word meaning DEPARTURE. Confirmed by Jerome, who translated the Latin Vulgate from the Greek Septuagint, with the Latin word, "discessio," which also means DEPARTURE.

Paul reinforced what he wrote in verse 3, in verse 7, which states: "The one who restrains will continue to do so, till he is TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY." The "he" who will be taken out of the way is the one body of Christ, His Church, confirming the "DEPARTURE" in verse 3.

Providing full support for the rapture of the Church, BEFORE the man of lawlessness is revealed, in verse 3 and 8, who triggers the tribulation.

[All quotes of Scripture in the above are paraphrased]


Quasar92
 
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Copperhead

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3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Day of departure) shall not come, except there come a falling away (departure) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Verse 3 makes no sense with your definition.

It only makes no sense in that you have put in departure twice. That day is clearly a reference to the Day of the Lord / time of Jacob's trouble / Great Tribulation / 70th week of Daniel. You were correct in replacing falling way with departure. Verse 2 previous to that set the context as being the day of the Lord.

In your zeal to argue the position, you stepped all over yourself. You engaged your typing fingers before you put your brain in gear.
 
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Quasar92

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Ok let’s put you theory to test in context.

2 Thessalonians 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering (departure) together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (day of departure) is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (Day of departure) shall not come, except there come a falling away (departure) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Verse 3 makes no sense with your definition.

The problem here is if we leave the text alone it makes sense, if we get into the “private interpretations” it makes no sense.

To make “falling away” mean what you want it to mean you have to redefine “gathering”, “day of Christ” and “that day” to make it say what you need it to say.

I notice you did not comment on Acts 21:21.

My intent was not to imply 1 Timothy 4:1 uses the same word, but it does confirm the same point as Acts 21;21 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which do use the same Greek word.


Yes, the Greek word has more than one meaning. Is is the foundation word for the English apostasy, also meaning to fall away. It also means to depart or departure. The latter is what Paul used the meaning for in the text of his 2 Thess.2:3 verse, confirmed in verse 7, where he wrote, "taken out of the way," with reference to the rapture of the Church.


Quasar92
 
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Copperhead

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Paul says “in the latter times”.





The text does not say the falling away is the “trigger” for the man of sin, it only says both will occur before “that day”.





This text cannot be rightly divided by what if’s and how’s.

And what is "that day". Verse 2 states that it is the day of the Lord which from OT references means the Day of the Lord / Daniel's 70th Week / Time of Jacob's Trouble / Great Tribulation. It does not say day of the removal of the righteous. Verse 3 expounds on that saying that this Day of the Lord will not come until there is a departure and the man of sin can then be revealed. And it is this man of sin revealing that is in keeping the Daniel 9:27.
 
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BABerean2

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Problem is, the link above your post referred to shows the American Standard Version.

The information I posted comes directly from the Geneva Commentary downloaded into the Bible software package known as eSword.

When you said...

"It is disingenuous to post a translation and say it is from a particular bible and not provide supporting evidence of that."

Since that was the translation which came directly from eSword, your charge of being "disingenuous" would have to be directed toward those who wrote the software.

I do not know them.

.
 
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Copperhead

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Yes, the Greek word has more than one meaning. Is is the foundation word for the English apostasy, also meaning to fall away. It also means to depart or departure. The latter is what Paul used the meaning for in the text of his 2 Thess.2:3 verse, confirmed in verse 7, where he wrote, "taken out of the way," with reference to the rapture of the Church.


Quasar92

Indeed. There is no definite article to say what is being departed from. Only in Acts 21:21 and and 1 Timothy 4:1 is a definite article referenced as to what is being departed from.

On the "taken out of the way" I have always seen it a little differently. Picture a linebacker on the American football field, blocking the adversary or opposing team from getting at the quarterback. The church is the quarterback. Once the church is removed, the HS then steps aside and allows the opposition to come on in full force. The job of the HS is to proclaim the Messiah, indwell / protect / seal those that place their trust in Messiah, and then deliver the church as the unblemished bride to the Messiah just at the servant of Abraham sought and delivered Rebekah for Isaac. That picture in Genesis 24 is a magnificent picture of the HS and the bride of the Messiah, the church.
 
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Copperhead

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The information I posted comes directly from the Geneva Commentary downloaded into the Bible software package known as eSword.

When you said...

"It is disingenuous to post a translation and say it is from a particular bible and not provide supporting evidence of that."

Since that was the translation which came directly from eSword, your charge of being "disingenuous" would have to be directed toward those who wrote the software.

I do not know them.

.

Then you should always confirm your sources before you use them to beat someone over the head.
 
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Quasar92

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Indeed. There is no definite article to say what is being departed from. Only in Acts 21:21 and and 1 Timothy 4:1 is a definite article referenced as to what is being departed from.

On the "taken out of the way" I have always seen it a little differently. Picture a linebacker on the American football field, blocking the adversary or opposing team from getting at the quarterback. The church is the quarterback. Once the church is removed, the HS then steps aside and allows the opposition to come on in full force. The job of the HS is to proclaim the Messiah, indwell / protect / seal those that place their trust in Messiah, and then deliver the church as the unblemished bride to the Messiah just at the servant of Abraham sought and delivered Rebekah for Isaac. That picture in Genesis 24 is a magnificent picture of the HS and the bride of the Messiah, the church.


Verse one of 2 Thess.2 is specific reference to 1 Thess.4:17.

Hope that helps.


Quasar92
 
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Copperhead

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Verse one of 2 Thess.2 is specific reference to 1 Thess.4:17.

Hope that helps.


Quasar92

I'll even stir the pot a little.... also a reference to Revelation 12:5 and Isaiah 26:19-21. The Rev 12:5 reference ought to really bring out the big guns of discontent. ^_^
 
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Revealing Times

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If Jesus was seated at the right hand of the Father you must be right, John didn’t see Him. The angel didn’t see Him either because the angel was asking who is worthy to open the book. I guess Jesus was hidden to both John and the angel since He was there all the time. Your argument “So where is Jesus? NOWHERE !!” proves nothing. You have ignored the main point of the post to try and divert this issue.
My Argument about WHERE IS JESUS proves everything because it proves you are angling to make a point but not willing to admit this is a nonsensical argument since Jesus is supposedly not in Heaven, On Earth, or Under the Earth. I'll showcase this point further down the line brother. There is no main point, because I pointed out he is NOWHERE which means that is/was not the Angels intended meaning. PROOF incoming, at the bottom, after answering your questions, I will prove that Jesus had already ascended.

The point of the post was who are the elders . You need to answer a few basic questions on that topic since you challenged my post.
Well who would be the Elders of the Church? Th Oldest Church Leaders of Course.

1. Since your goal is to try to prove the church is in heaven when it is not, how can the four beasts as well as the 24 elders be redeemed by His blood as the KJV clearly states and the ASV as well as others clearly refute.


This is of course you not understanding the Scripture as written. The Word AND was used over 1200 times in Rev., some say that John was probably seeing these visions so fast and everything was flowing so he just used AND, AND, AND, over and over. (Dr. Ed Hindson says this).

So when you see And its flowing but everything is not always noted as being separate in nature. Of course everyone knows that MEN are Redeemed not the Four Beasts who have always been in Heaven before the throne of God. This doesn't even need to be stated in reality.

Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb (They all fell down before God to pay Obeisance),..............having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God (Now in reallity you don't really think this is the Four Beasts/Cherubims speaking this do you? I hope not.) by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and PEOPLE, and nation (Common sense tells us its PEOPLE);

2. It is my contention both elders and 4 beasts are redeemed by His blood out of every kindred and tongue and are made kings and priests or both are not. Choose which one you want to defend because it is one or the other.

You would be mistaken my brother, these are Angels (Ezekiel described them as Cherubims) thus they are Angels.

Ezekiel 1:3 The word of the Lord came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the Lord was there upon him. 4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. 5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. 6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.

10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

These four "beasts" are the identical symbols of the Living Creatures in Revelation chapter 4. As in Revelation so in Ezekiel "there was by them the likeness of a throne" ( SEE BELOW Ezekiel 1:26). In both visions the glory of the Lord is manifested (SEE BELOW Ezekiel 1:28). In both cases there is a rainbow about the throne, These angelic creatures in Ezekiel were CHERUBIMS ( See also Ezekiel 10).

26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Lets now compare the Angels (Cheribums) in Ezekiel 10 to these Four Beasts brother to see if they are the Same Four Beings. God has Mysterious ways, but He usually gives us His followers HINTS that others just can't seem to pick up on.

Ezekiel 10:1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Ezekiel 1:7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. 8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. 9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.

Ezekiel 10:7 And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that was between the cherubims, and took thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was clothed with linen: who took it, and went out. 8 And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.

11 When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed it; they turned not as they went. 12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about (Just like Rev. 5) even the wheels that they four had.

20 This is the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they were the cherubims. 21 Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings. 22 And the likeness of their faces was the same faces which I saw by the river of Chebar, their appearances and themselves: they went every one straight forward.

So as we see, Ezekiel chapter 1 and chapter 10 are the Same living creatures and they are Angels of God, better yet they are more than likely the Four Angels that surround Jesus Christ day and night. So these ANGELS were not Redeemed by the Blood, but have never sinned before God.

Beginning at the 6th verse of Rev. 4, there is a detailed description of the four beasts. Literally, it should be translated living ones or living creatures rather than beasts.

There is a symbolism here that demands close attention.

The First beast was like a LION
The Second was like a CALF
The Third was like the face of a MAN
The fourth was like a flying EAGLE.

To understand the meaning of these symbols, we need to go back to the Old Testament. In Ezekiel ch. 1, we have a description of four living creatures. In Ezekiel 1:10, we are told that on the right side they had the face of a man, and the face of a lion. On the left side they had the face of an ox, and the face of an eagle. These are the identical symbols of the Living Creatures in Revelation ch. 4. As in Revelation so in Ezekiel there was by them the likeness of a throne. In both visions the glory of the Lord is manifested. In both cases there is a rainbow about the throne, These angelic creatures in Ezekiel were CHERUBIMS as Ezekiel chapter 10 shows us.

Notice that John does not describe these beasts except to liken them to something that we would be familiar with. Especially notice the words "like" and "as" in Revelation 4:7. The first part of Verse 8 adds to this description when it says, "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within".

While John could only describe the beasts by comparison, he is very precise in telling what they do, And they rest not day and night, saying, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY LORD GOD ALMIGHTY,which was, and is, and is to come" (Rev. 4:8).

The four LIVING CREATURES are CHERUBIMS (Refer Ezekiel 10:20, 21 ABOVE).

In describing the four living creatures, John says that the first "beast" was like a LION. A LION is the "King of the beasts" and represents majesty. Thus Christ is portrayed in the Gospel of Mathew as King of Kings.

The Second living creature is said to be "like a calf". The word translated "calf" can also be translated as "bullock" or "heifer". This of course, was an animal frequently used for sacrifice. CHRIST here is portrayed as the Sacrifice for our sins. Mark in his Gospel presents CHRIST as the SERVANT who was to be sacrificed.

The Third living creature "had a face as a man". The third creature would represent CHRIST as a MAN. The Gospel of Luke presents CHRIST as the Perfect Man. Also, as described in Philippians 2, Christ left His position of Glory with the Father and became a man so that He might die on the cross for our sin.

The fourth living creature was "like a flying EAGLE". The eagle symbolizes Sovereignty and Supremacy and in many cases is a stand in for God rescuing His peoples (See Rev. 12:14). Thus the living creature represents CHRIST in all his DEITY. The Apostle John in his Gospel presents JESUS CHRIST as the SON OF GOD and shows His relationship with heaven.

These four living creatures do not rest day or night as they protect the throne of GOD in its holiness. In the old testament we read something very much similar to Rev 4. When Israel was camping in the wilderness, there were special precautions taken with the tabernacle which was the habitation of God in their midst. The Tabernacle was always in the center of the camp and was surrounded by 12 tribes.

EPHRAIM WEST -> OX FLAG
DAN NORTH -> EAGLE FLAG
REUBEN SOUTH -> MAN FLAG
JUDAH EAST -> LION FLAG.

On the east side was Judah which had a banner of a Lion. Ephraim was on the west with a standard of the ox. Reuben was on the South with the standard of a Man and Dan was on the north with a standard of an eagle.

The 24 Elders have White Robes which Rev. 19:8 tells us is the Righteousness of the Saints. The 24 Elders are the Church in Heaven brother.

ONE ADDENDUM:

If Jesus is STILL ON EARTH and John wrote Revelation AFTER Jesus' death (Which he most surely did) then why does this verse say to come see things which MUST BE HEREAFTER?

Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter (CAN'T BE BEFORE CHRIST JESUS' DEATH CAN IT? ). Everything AFTER this point in time (90-95 AD..........Even if it was 40 AD) has to be AFTER Jesus has ascended to Heaven because by the time John wrote the book of Revelation and saw these VISIONS, Jesus was long since dead/sacrificed for our sins and of course he ascended to the Father. So this should pretty much end any argument to the contrary.
 
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Revealing Times

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Can you point to “earth“ as being departed from????

Yes, the very first verse gives us the DEPARTURE SUBJECT......A Gathering together unto Christ BEFORE the Day of the Lord.

Let’s look at the only other time in the NT the word “apostasia “ is used and see what It means there. That might help us to determine what it really means.

Acts21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Did those that forsook Moses’s saying leave the planet to accomplish this??? You be the judge.

I have a blog on this which pretty much settles this argument.

The Falling Away is really the Departure of the Church.

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end (Now), as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can "Fall Away" from the Faith, the Fake church can. Either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convincing was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power, then the Day of the Lord will follow close behind.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away [from the faith]. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1100 years before they translated the KJV.

As per SOME DEPARTING from the Faith, that is a given, but they are not the Church and what's being spoken of in 2 Thess. 2 is the Body of Christ being Gathered unto the Lord. There is a definite article and this can't be denied.

I agree that many will depart Christianity in the end, just look at the acceptance of sin, but that is not what is being spoken of in 2 Thess. 2 brothers in Christ
 
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