If Jesus was seated at the right hand of the Father you must be right, John didn’t see Him. The angel didn’t see Him either because the angel was asking who is worthy to open the book. I guess Jesus was hidden to both John and the angel since He was there all the time. Your argument “So where is Jesus? NOWHERE !!” proves nothing. You have ignored the main point of the post to try and divert this issue.
My Argument about WHERE IS JESUS proves everything because it proves you are angling to make a point but not willing to admit this is a nonsensical argument since
Jesus is supposedly not in Heaven, On Earth, or Under the Earth. I'll showcase this point further down the line brother. There is no main point, because I pointed out he is
NOWHERE which means that is/was not the Angels intended meaning. PROOF incoming, at the bottom, after answering your questions, I will prove that Jesus had already ascended.
The point of the post was who are the elders . You need to answer a few basic questions on that topic since you challenged my post.
Well who would be the Elders of the Church? Th Oldest Church Leaders of Course.
1. Since your goal is to try to prove the church is in heaven when it is not, how can the four beasts as well as the 24 elders be redeemed by His blood as the KJV clearly states and the ASV as well as others clearly refute.
This is of course you not understanding the Scripture as written. The Word AND was used over 1200 times in Rev., some say that John was probably seeing these visions so fast and everything was flowing so he just used AND, AND, AND, over and over. (Dr. Ed Hindson says this).
So when you see And its flowing but everything is not always noted as being separate in nature. Of course everyone knows that MEN are Redeemed not the Four Beasts who have always been in Heaven before the throne of God. This doesn't even need to be stated in reality.
Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts
and four and
twenty elders fell down before the Lamb (They all fell down before God to pay Obeisance),..............having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain,
and hast redeemed us to God (Now in reallity you don't really think this is the Four Beasts/Cherubims speaking this do you? I hope not.) by thy blood out of every
kindred, and tongue, and PEOPLE, and nation (Common sense tells us its PEOPLE);
2. It is my contention both elders and 4 beasts are redeemed by His blood out of every kindred and tongue and are made kings and priests or both are not. Choose which one you want to defend because it is one or the other.
You would be mistaken my brother, these are Angels (Ezekiel described them as Cherubims) thus they are Angels.
Ezekiel 1:3 The word of the Lord came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the Lord was there upon him. 4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. 5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of
four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. 6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.
10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the
face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the
face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the
face of an eagle.
These four "beasts" are the identical symbols of the Living Creatures in Revelation chapter 4. As in Revelation so in Ezekiel "there was by them the likeness of a throne" ( SEE BELOW Ezekiel 1:26). In both visions the glory of the Lord is manifested (SEE BELOW Ezekiel 1:28). In both cases there is a rainbow about the throne, These angelic creatures in Ezekiel were CHERUBIMS ( See also Ezekiel 10).
26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the
likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
28 As
the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
Lets now compare the Angels (Cheribums) in Ezekiel 10 to these Four Beasts brother to see if they are the Same Four Beings. God has Mysterious ways, but He usually gives us His followers HINTS that others just can't seem to pick up on.
Ezekiel 10:1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the
cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the
likeness of a throne.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ezekiel 1:7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. 8 And
they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. 9 Their wings were joined one to another;
they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.
Ezekiel 10:7 And
one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the cherubims unto the fire that was between the cherubims, and took thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was clothed with linen: who took it, and went out. 8 And there
appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand under their wings.
11 When they went, they went upon their four sides;
they turned not as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed it;
they turned not as they went. 12 And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and their wings, and the wheels, were
full of eyes round about (Just like Rev. 5) even the wheels that they four had.
20 This is the
living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and
I knew that they were the cherubims. 21
Every one had four faces apiece, and every one
four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man was under their wings. 22 And the likeness of their faces was the same faces which I saw by the river of Chebar, their appearances and themselves: they went every one straight forward.
So as we see, Ezekiel chapter 1 and chapter 10 are the Same living creatures and they are Angels of God, better yet they are more than likely the Four Angels that surround Jesus Christ day and night. So these ANGELS were not Redeemed by the Blood, but have never sinned before God.
Beginning at the 6th verse of Rev. 4, there is a detailed description of the four beasts. Literally, it should be translated living ones or living creatures rather than beasts.
There is a symbolism here that demands close attention.
The First beast was like a LION
The Second was like a CALF
The Third was like the face of a MAN
The fourth was like a flying EAGLE.
To understand the meaning of these symbols, we need to go back to the Old Testament. In Ezekiel ch. 1, we have a description of four living creatures. In Ezekiel 1:10, we are told that on the right side they had the face of a man, and the face of a lion. On the left side they had the face of an ox, and the face of an eagle. These are the identical symbols of the Living Creatures in Revelation ch. 4. As in Revelation so in Ezekiel there was by them the
likeness of a throne. In both visions the
glory of the Lord is manifested. In both cases there is a
rainbow about the throne, These angelic creatures in Ezekiel were CHERUBIMS as Ezekiel chapter 10 shows us.
Notice that John does not describe these beasts except to liken them to something that we would be familiar with. Especially notice the words "like" and "as" in Revelation 4:7. The first part of Verse 8 adds to this description when it says, "And the four beasts had each of them
six wings about him; and they were
full of eyes within".
While John could only describe the beasts by comparison, he is very precise in telling what they do, And they rest not day and night, saying, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY LORD GOD ALMIGHTY,which was, and is, and is to come" (Rev. 4:8).
The four LIVING CREATURES are CHERUBIMS
(Refer Ezekiel 10:20, 21 ABOVE).
In describing the four living creatures, John says that the first "beast" was like a LION. A LION is the "King of the beasts" and represents majesty. Thus Christ is portrayed in the Gospel of Mathew as King of Kings.
The Second living creature is said to be "like a calf". The word translated "calf" can also be translated as "bullock" or "heifer". This of course, was an animal frequently used for sacrifice. CHRIST here is portrayed as the Sacrifice for our sins. Mark in his Gospel presents CHRIST as the SERVANT who was to be sacrificed.
The Third living creature "had a face as a man". The third creature would represent CHRIST as a MAN. The Gospel of Luke presents CHRIST as the Perfect Man. Also, as described in Philippians 2, Christ left His position of Glory with the Father and became a man so that He might die on the cross for our sin.
The fourth living creature was "like a flying EAGLE". The eagle symbolizes Sovereignty and Supremacy and in many cases is a stand in for God rescuing His peoples (See Rev. 12:14). Thus the living creature represents CHRIST in all his DEITY. The Apostle John in his Gospel presents JESUS CHRIST as the SON OF GOD and shows His relationship with heaven.
These four living creatures do not rest day or night as they protect the throne of GOD in its holiness. In the old testament we read something very much similar to Rev 4. When Israel was camping in the wilderness, there were special precautions taken with the tabernacle which was the habitation of God in their midst. The Tabernacle was always in the center of the camp and was surrounded by 12 tribes.
EPHRAIM WEST -> OX FLAG
DAN NORTH -> EAGLE FLAG
REUBEN SOUTH -> MAN FLAG
JUDAH EAST -> LION FLAG.
On the east side was Judah which had a banner of a Lion. Ephraim was on the west with a standard of the ox. Reuben was on the South with the standard of a Man and Dan was on the north with a standard of an eagle.
The 24 Elders have White Robes which Rev. 19:8 tells us is the Righteousness of the Saints. The 24 Elders are the Church in Heaven brother.
ONE ADDENDUM:
If Jesus is STILL ON EARTH and John wrote Revelation AFTER Jesus' death (Which he most surely did) then why does this verse say to come see things which MUST BE HEREAFTER?
Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said,
Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter (CAN'T BE BEFORE CHRIST JESUS' DEATH CAN IT? ). Everything AFTER this point in time (90-95 AD..........Even if it was 40 AD) has to be AFTER Jesus has ascended to Heaven because by the time John wrote the book of Revelation and saw these VISIONS, Jesus was long since dead/sacrificed for our sins and of course he ascended to the Father. So this should pretty much end any argument to the contrary.