The worst thing about Calvinism

JoeP222w said:

I would argue that almost all who are against Calvinism have a complete misunderstanding of it, as well as the fact that they cannot support their own perspective from a proper exegesis of scripture.

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I hear this all the time and yet I never get an explanation as a form of correction otherwise. Just responses like this. Calvinists believe God regenerates a person before they have any free will choice to choose God. This regeneration is not based upon any choice that they would make in the future (after they are regenerated) but it is completely just within the Sovereign will of God or His fancy to save some and not to save others. If I am wrong, then please explain.

Now, I believe God is Sovereign, too. But not in the extreme unbiblical way you think (that seeks to paint God in a bad light). I believe God gives every man a free will choice to choose Him as a part of His drawing (by which He draws all men to Himself). Yet, God (who knows all things) knows who is going to accept Him in this life and who is going to reject Him in this life. So based on God knowing every single person's choice (regarding Him) is able to place them into whatever time or place of His choosing for His greater plan for good. This does not mean God exists in all points in time or anything. That is man's concept of time. Time only exists in the present only. God is simply able to know everyone's choice regarding Him through out all of man's history. He knows every soul's choice before they are ever physically created.


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BytheSpirit said:

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭ESV‬‬

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JoeP222w said:

How does that dispel Calvinism?

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While Romans 5:6 may not specifically be talking about all men who are ungodly, what Calvinists are failing to accept is that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the WORLD (John 1:29). For he is not only the propitation for OUR sins but for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2). This could not be any more clearer. Jesus died for all of the world's sins so as to offer man the free love gift of salvation if they want it. The only exception to those in whom Jesud did not die for (among the world) are those who worship the beast in the upcoming future (Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8).


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Jason0047 said:

Now, I believe God is Sovereign, too. But not in the extreme unbiblical way you think (that seeks to paint God in a bad light)

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How does God's sovereignty in election paint Him in a bad light?

jimmyjimmy said:

1) Everyone since Adam stands condemned already.
2) This gives the impression that there are people who, on their own, desire to be reconciled to God. I've never known a man like that.

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Babies who die go to be with God. I have known a Calvinist who said that babies who die can go to hell. Do you believe that? I believe God is good and He will not let the innocent perish. Now it is true, babies had the curse of sin from Adam upon them, but Jesus Christ reversed the curse. Babies who die go to be with Jesus because of what Christ has done. But if a baby does not die, and they grew up, what separates them from God spiritually? It is their sin. The baby grows up and falls into sin and they need to then repent and accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior (be born again spiritually) in order to be saved again. Imagine this like a picture of the parable of the Progidal Son. The son going away from the Father is like a baby who falls into sin when he grows up and he needs to come back home to the Father.

You said:

This paints a picture of a mean and unfair God.

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But the Scriptures clearly teach that God is into fair justice. For he that knew the Lord's will and did it not shall be beaten with many stripes; And he that did not know the Lord's will and commits things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes. This is fair justice.

God is not the author of confusion to be into fair justice at one point and then to not be fair in His justice at another point. That makes no sense.


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Jason0047 said:

Calvinists believe God regenerates a person before they have any free will choice to choose God.

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No. Calvinism does not promote the autonomous libertarian free will of man. That is not a biblical principle.

Ephesians 2:1-3 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins (2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— (3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Jason0047 said:

This regeneration is not based upon any choice that they would make in the future (after they are regenerated) but it is completely just within the Sovereign will of God

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If it has any basis in the will of man, that robs God of His glory. And salvation is not by the will of man, but by the grace of God alone.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Jason0047 said:

God gives every man a free will choice to choose Him as a part of His drawing (by which He draws all men to Himself).

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Scriptural basis for this (that it is a "free will choice")? Paul on the road to Damascus and Lydia are clear examples that it was not a "free will choice".

Jason0047 said:

Time only exists in the present only. God is simply able to know everyone's choice regarding Him through out all of man's history. He knows every soul's choice before they are ever physically created.

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These statements are contradictory. How can God know "every soul's choice" in the future if "time only exists in the present only"?

Are you an Open Theist? That God learns?

God is eternal, thus He exists outside of time. For this to be true, in the case of God only, time is not a finite point to Him. Yes, to us, time is finite. But not to God.

RisenInJesus said:

I really think the worst thing about Calvinism, T.U.L.I.P., or "Doctrines of Grace" (which is an oxymoron and misuse of the word grace), besides condemning millions to eternal damnation with no hope, is the way this theology slanders the character of God.

August 24, 2017
Hunt, Dave
It is a libel on the character of God to suggest that billions will go to hell simply because God didn’t want them in heaven—not because I have made this judgment, but because the Bible itself tells me in the clearest of terms that God loves the whole world, He sent His Son to redeem the whole world, and He wants the whole world to be saved. All other verses about election must take this fact into account.


"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

—1 John:2:2
Apples of Gold - August 24

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The worst thing about Calvinism ..
Firstly Is that Calvin isn't here to discuss what he taught..nor the way many have probably misconstrued what he meant.
&second worst thing about Calvinism Is all the threads arguing about what some guy said when that guy isn't here to explain what he meant by what he said.

Jason0047 said:

This verse dispels Calvinism because the Elect are not ungodly.

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I don't know how you get that from Romans 5:6.

Jason0047 said:

See, what Calvinists are failing to accept is that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the WORLD (John 1:29).

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So then why do people end up in Hell?

Jason0047 said:

The only exception to those in whom Jesud did not die for (among the world) are those who worship the beast in the upcoming future

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That would be a contradictory statement to your previous claim that Jesus died for the whole world. You assert in the beginning of the paragraph that Jesus died for the whole world, then in the latter part of the paragraph, you assert than Jesus did not die for the whole world. That is inconsistent.

John uses "world" (kosmos) in more than 20 different verses. Do you assert that "world" has the same exact meaning in every single context that John uses it?

jimmyjimmy said:

How does God's sovereignty in election paint Him in a bad light?

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I believe in God's Sovereignty as portrayed by the Bible. However, Calvinism's version of God's Soveregnty seeks to paint God in a bad light by saying that God makes some to be saved and others to not be saved (regardless of their free will choice on their own in deciding to choose Him). God is the One who chooses them and it is not based on any future free will choice that they would make after they are potentially regenerated or not. God just chooses some to be saved and others to not be saved by some unknown reason. This means God is just playing games with us and what we do in this life really does not matter. If you are saved, there is nothing you can do. You are His slave for good. If you are one of the damned for all time, there is nothing you can do to become saved. The Judgment then becomes a farce or a joke. Why have a Judgment of sinners if they had no choice otherwise in the crime? That would be like placing a robot on trial for committing murder when it had no other choice in it's program but to kill. It would make no sense to do that. Why put someone on trial if they had no choice otherwise in the matter?


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Alithis said:

The worst thing about Calvinism ..
Firstly Is that Calvin isn't here to discuss what he taught..nor the way many have probably misconstrued what he meant.
&second worst thing about Calvinism Is all the threads arguing about what some guy said when that guy isn't here to explain what he meant by what he said.

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He wrote a book.

Jason0047 said:

I believe in God's Sovereignty as portrayed by the Bible. However, Calvinism's version of God's Soveregnty seeks to paint God in a bad light by saying that God makes some to be saved and others to not be saved (regardless of their free will choice on their own in deciding to choose Him). God is the One who chooses them and it is not based on any future free will choice that they would make after they are potentially regenerated or not. God just chooses some to be saved and others to not be saved by some unknown reason. This means God is just playing games with us and what we do in this life really does not matter. If you are saved, there is nothing you can do. You are His slave for good. If you are one of the damned for all time, there is nothing you can do to become saved. The Judgment then becomes a farce or a joke. Why have a Judgment of sinners if they had no choice otherwise in the crime? That would be like placing a robot on trial for committing murder when it had no other choice in it's program but to kill. It would make no sense to do that. Why put someone on trial if they had no choice otherwise in the matter.


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I need to get to work. Will someone correct the dozen errors in the above post, please? Starting with why would Calvinists *seek* to paint God in a bad light??? Thanks!

@JoeP222w ; @Hammster ; @St_Worm2 ; @redleghunter

Jason0047 said:

God makes some to be saved and others to not be saved (regardless of their free will choice on their own in deciding to choose Him)

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Romans 9:13-23 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

I don't see anything in the verses above about "free will choice" of the pot.

Jason0047 said:

God is the One who chooses them and it is not based on any future free will choice that they would make after they are potentially regenerated or not.

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Please provide from the Bible where it speaks of "regenerated" and not just your assertion.

Jason0047 said:

God just chooses some to be saved and others to not be saved by some unknown reason.

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To us it is unknown. God knows whom He chooses. But those who are not chosen by God are not elected to condemnation. Condemnation is the natural position of man. The amazing thing about God is not that He justly condemns the rebel sinner, but rather that He saves anyone at all. God is under no obligation to save a single human being ever, but out of His love, and not in anything in the individual themselves, He chooses whom He will save out the counsel of His own perfect and divine will. God never consults with man on whom He will save. That is what make salvation all the more glorifying of God!

Jason0047 said:

This means God is just playing games with us and what we do in this life really does not matter.

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Gross oversimplification. Does God not have the right as the Creator to do with His creation as He choses? Or did you self-create?

And life absolutely matters and all mankind will glorify God, either for God demonstrating His grace and mercy on wicked people by making them a new creation in Christ, or by executing perfect divine justice against the rebel sinner who hates God with every fiber of their being.

Jason0047 said:

If you are saved, there is nothing you can do.

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I have never seen or heard of a dead person raising themselves to new life.

And if you are saved, you respond in obedience to the sovereign will of God with a joyful heart full of gratitude for His grace, mercy and love, and by which you are motivated to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to all of creation, so that more may come to repentance and faith in God.

Jason0047 said:

You are His slave for good.

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Yes, and I am incredibly blessed to be the slave of my Master and Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you think being a slave is always an evil thing? You seem to imply that.

Jason0047 said:

If you are one of the damned for all time, there is nothing you can do to become saved.

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Correct and that is why salvation is all of God's grace. And the rebel sinner who is not elect will never want to be saved. I have stated it previously, but no one will be in Hell and say, "I wanted to be saved, but I was not one of the elect, so God would not save me." That will never happen. Those in Hell hate God with all that they are.

Jason0047 said:

The Judgment then becomes a farce or a joke. Why have a Judgment of sinners if they had no choice otherwise in the crime?

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Grace cannot be demanded, else it is not grace.

Jason0047 said:

That would be like placing a robot on trial for committing murder when it had no other choice in it's program but to kill.

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No, this is a misrepresentation.

Or do you think that there are people in Heaven who say, "I did not want to be saved, but God gave me no choice because I am just a robot."? Do you think that is what Calvinism is saying?

Jason0047 said:

Why put someone on trial if they had no choice otherwise in the matter.

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And back to Romans 9 as you are representing the Objector:

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

Hammster said:

This doesn't respond to the point of my post.

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People are not universally saved, they need to choose it. If you have a point, be clear, because responses will be to what you appear to say...not to some pious, unexplained version of what you supposedly meant.

JoeP222w said:

I don't know how you get that from Romans 5:6.

So you are saying that



So then why do people end up in Hell?



That would be a contradictory statement to your previous claim that Jesus died for the whole world. You assert in the beginning of the paragraph that Jesus died for the whole world, then in the latter part of the paragraph, you assert than Jesus did not die for the whole world. That is inconsistent.

John uses "world" (kosmos) in more than 20 different verses. Do you assert that "world" has the same exact meaning in every single context that John uses it?

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Whenever a person is confused on a verse or chapter in the Bible, all they need to do is put Jesus in it and it becomes clear.

In other words, when you read Romans 9:1-13, you have to read it in terms of how Paul is talking to the Jews (Romans 9:3-6) and not all individuals and how he is trying to tell them that the purpose of Election of the Promises is through the line of the Messiah with Jacob's line and not Esau's line. Romans 9:13 is not saying God literally loved Jacob and literally hated Esau as individuals (cf. Luke 14:26). Paul is using them as examples of how God was all powerful enough to know which family line to use so as to bring the Promised Messiah (i.e. Jesus). That is what "Election" here is talking about in Romans 9. It is not talking about individual "Election" but it is talking about the "Election of the Promise" or the genealogical line that Jesus would come through. The Jews were claiming that they were saved based on being of the seed of Abraham and in keeping God's Laws. But they rejected their Messiah. God does not have to conform to old Jewish ways of thinking just because they rejected their Messiah. He will have mercy on whom He will's in the manner He will's with the Messiah that He has chosen (Which was Jesus Christ).

Now, when you read Romans 9:14-16: Well, you have to realize that it is talking about God's plan of salvation with Jesus Christ being their Messiah of whom the Jews rejected. God is saying He will have mercy in the WAY God wants to do things and not according to Jewish thoughts or beliefs (Which one of their ways they considered a person to be right with God was thru circumcision - See Romans 3:1).

And when you read Romans 9:17-18: Well, you have to realize it is making a parallel. For there is a parallel being made of how God is Sovereign and just in setting up the Promised Line of the Messiah (i.e. by having mercy on whom He wills) versus raising up Pharaoh into power to show God's power. How was God's power shown in the life of the Pharoah? By God making the Pharoah wealthy? Not exactly. God allowed Pharoah to be raised up so that God's power was shown in the life of God's miracles being displayed such as the Ten plagues and the parting of the Red Sea. This is why Paraoah was raised up. It was so that God's power (or miracles) could be displayed (and proclaimed to all the Earth). Just as God had chosen the line of the Messiah so as to display His power (and proclaim such a thing to all the Earth). So this was not some kind of point to prove individual election but to prove the Election of the Promised Line of the Messiah (Who is Jesus Christ). For Jesus is the greatest miracle (of the best form of Election) that there is.

Anyways, when you read on down to verse 24 (Romans 9:24), the point is clear what Paul is really talking about.

I hope this helps, and may God bless you.


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Jason0047 said:

I hear this all the time and yet I never get an explanation as a form of correction otherwise. Just responses like this. Calvinists believe God regenerates a person before they have any free will choice to choose God. This regeneration is not based upon any choice that they would make in the future (after they are regenerated) but it is completely just within the Sovereign will of God or His fancy to save some and not to save others. If I am wrong, then please explain.

Now, I believe God is Sovereign, too. But not in the extreme unbiblical way you think (that seeks to paint God in a bad light). I believe God gives every man a free will choice to choose Him as a part of His drawing (by which He draws all men to Himself). Yet, God (who knows all things) knows who is going to accept Him in this life and who is going to reject Him in this life. So based on God knowing every single person's choice (regarding Him) is able to place them into whatever time or place of His choosing for His greater plan for good. This does not mean God exists in all points in time or anything. That is man's concept of time. Time only exists in the present only. God is simply able to know everyone's choice regarding Him through out all of man's history. He knows every soul's choice before they are ever physically created.


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No you don't believe God is Sovereign. Like all those who deny the doctrines of grace and the biblical gospel, you believe mans will reigns supreme. The autonomous libertarian will is what you are promoting. And that alone refuses to believe God is Sovereign over all His creation

"If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26).

So is this verse talking about hating your family?


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Hammster said:

The post was in response to another post. The point was clear. You didn't consider the context.

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Most posts are in response to another post. Since you twice dodged the opportunity to clarify, which should have been a simple thing, I must chalk it up to attitude.