The worst thing about Calvinism

OzSpen

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Dave Hunt is currently a convinced Calvinist.

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OzSpen

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That would be a form of universalism.

No it's not, Hammster. It's your failure to accept that Jesus provided a propitiatory sacrifice for the whole world but only those who accept Jesus by grace through faith are saved.

Your theology does not allow for human beings who reject Jesus' propitiation for them. That's one of the deficiencies in your system -- as well as ULI in TULIP.

Your TULIP Calvinism stumbles over the truth of free will that started at the beginning of time when God gave Adam and Eve the choice of eating or not eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Your hard-headed Calvinism will not allow you to include, Joshua 24:14-15 and mean what it states:

“Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”​

I have addressed this situation in my article, Choose does not mean choice! Joshua 24:15.

Your Calvinism stumbles over 'choice' and thus cannot handle the content of 1 John 2:2 (ESV), "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world".

Oz
 
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Bluesh1ft

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If someone's car breaks down in front of a church and that person goes in, hears the gospel, and gets saved, what determined salvation? The car manufacturer who made junky vehicles? The person for hearing the gospel and deciding to believe?.. Or The God who knew the exact way to unlock that person's mind to the message of salvation and created the exact circumstance for them to hear the message of salvation? In the long chain of causes and effects, there is One who is sovereign over all.
 
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RisenInJesus

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That would be a form of universalism.
Anyone who even superficially reads the Bible realizes that though it says Christ paid for the sins of the world, it also says one must repent and believe the gospel message. That is not universalism.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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That's right and that is why I have spent years researching this subject.

I can only conclude that you are either a slow Lerner or had poor teachers because your OP misrepresents Calvinism.

Now, a wise man would ask how, and a fool would continue in ignorance to charge ahead after being told something like that.
 
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RisenInJesus

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No it's not, Hammster. It's your failure to accept that Jesus provided a propitiatory sacrifice for the whole world but only those who accept Jesus by grace through faith are saved.

Your theology does not allow for human beings who reject Jesus' propitiation for them. That's one of the deficiencies in your system -- as well as ULI in TULIP.

Your TULIP Calvinism stumbles over the truth of free will that started at the beginning of time when God gave Adam and Eve the choice of eating or not eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Your hard-headed Calvinism will not allow you to include, Joshua 24:14-15 and mean what it states:

“Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”​

I have addressed this situation in my article, Choose does not mean choice! Joshua 24:15.

Your Calvinism stumbles over 'choice' and thus cannot handle the content of 1 John 2:2 (ESV), "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world".

Oz
Excellent post.
 
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RisenInJesus

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I can only conclude that you are either a slow Lerner or had poor teachers because your OP misrepresents Calvinism.

Now, a wise man would ask how, and a fool would continue in ignorance to charge ahead after being told something like that.
I get kind of tired of hearing the same old thing of "misrepresenting Calvinism", because every time I ask or see others ask there is never a straight answer given to show how such misrepresentation is occurring. But I would appreciate if you would explain how the OP misrepresents Calvinism.
 
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dad

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That would be a form of universalism.
No. Just because everyone could does not mean everyone would. He made a way anyone could go. That does not mean we don't get to decide. Calvinist doctrine seems to claim that it was decided for us.
 
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RisenInJesus

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Meaning the actual source. Not a site with a quote.

Not poking eyes I just like to see quotes in context.
Well, that is the link to the actual source. The quote is by Dave Hunt. The link is to The Berean Call ministry founded by Dave Hunt. Posted today August 24, 2017 by The Berean Call. If it's from an article or book of Dave Hunt's you'll have to do the research on the site to find it.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Excellent post.

It's complete error, and that's not hyperbole.

1) The Joshua text is not Joshua offering salvation, and asking them to choose if they be saved or not. Just read the chapter plainly. He is reminding them of what God had done for all of their ancestors. He is reminding them of how God has worked in the past. He is reminding them that God is faithful.

These are people who *already* are God's people. They are simply being admonished and encouraged to press on, and to keep the faith.

This is not a 1985 Billy Graham event, so if you insert that concept into the text, you don't come to a correct conclusion regarding its meaning. It's beyond sloppy reading to insert such a thing into this text, in the first place, as the context has nothing to do with evangelism.

Joshua 24:14-18

Choose Whom You Will Serve

[14] “Now therefore fear the LORD and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. [15] And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

[16] Then the people answered, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods, [17] for it is the LORD our God who brought us and our fathers up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, and who did those great signs in our sight and preserved us in all the way that we went, and among all the peoples through whom we passed. [18] And the LORD drove out before us all the peoples, the Amorites who lived in the land. Therefore we also will serve the LORD, for he is our God.” (ESV)
2) In John 2:2, who is he addressing? He is speaking to Jews. Jews, whose main problem, as confirmed by Christ repeated in the gospels, is that they saw God as theirs alone. They did not understand that salvation was also for the gentiles. Us and them is Jew and gentile. Us and the world, is Jew and everyone else.
 
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OzSpen

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If someone's car breaks down in front of a church and that person goes in, hears the gospel, and gets saved, what determined salvation? The car manufacturer who made junky vehicles? The person for hearing the gospel and deciding to believe?.. Or The God who knew the exact way to unlock that person's mind to the message of salvation and created the exact circumstance for them to hear the message of salvation? In the long chain of causes and effects, there is One who is sovereign over all.

Did the person make a choice to go into the church? Could he/she have chosen not to enter the church?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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besides condemning millions to eternal damnation with no hope

1) Everyone since Adam stands condemned already.
2) This gives the impression that there are people who, on their own, desire to be reconciled to God. I've never known a man like that.

It is a libel on the character of God to suggest that billions will go to hell simply because God didn’t want them in heaven

This paints a picture of a mean and unfair God. What is forgets is that God cannot allow the preface of sin into Heaven. He is a consuming fire, and all sinners in His presence are judged so. In one sense, God wants no sinful man in Heaven. His justice does not allow for a guilty man to remain un-judged.

God loves the whole world

He does. He causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.

He sent His Son to redeem the whole world

This is an unprovable presupposition, and it's why you can't see my side of things. This assumption alone is where the problem lies.

There are no texts which state that the Father sent the Son to redeem every single person without exception, and there are many texts which state otherwise. This is the fork in the road where a false assumption leads to all sorts of errant theology. This is why reading with precision is so vital. All three Arminian proof texts are all sloppily exegeted. If one would forget his presuppositions, which I know is very difficult, and he just understood those three texts correctly, there would be no debate on this subject. Three little texts. That's what Arminianism is built upon.

Next, the language of marriage is so important in understanding what is going on in John 6. You must have an understanding of how marriages were arranged then. They were arranged. That's the point. The Bride - the Church is *given, by the Father, to His Son. This is an arranged marriage.

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

He wants the whole world to be saved

See above.

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

First, when John says, "our sins", is he talking about believers or unbelievers? Is he talking to Jews or gentiles?
 
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Instrument150

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I really think the worst thing about Calvinism, T.U.L.I.P., or "Doctrines of Grace" (which is an oxymoron and misuse of the word grace), besides condemning millions to eternal damnation with no hope, is the way this theology slanders the character of God.

August 24, 2017
Hunt, Dave
It is a libel on the character of God to suggest that billions will go to hell simply because God didn’t want them in heaven—not because I have made this judgment, but because the Bible itself tells me in the clearest of terms that God loves the whole world, He sent His Son to redeem the whole world, and He wants the whole world to be saved. All other verses about election must take this fact into account.


"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

—1 John:2:2
Apples of Gold - August 24

I agree. I think it's a tactic to make people idolize themselves JUST IN CASE anyone was smart enough to realize that God made time up off the top his head, so He just already knows who is going to be there. That doesn't mean that's what he wants. For me the ideal would only appeal to people who are a little too smart for their own good.
 
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SteveIndy

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What does a "propitiation" do? And, if it was done for the "whole world", in the sense that David Hunt means, what would that imply?

Just trying to think it through...

Propitiation simply means to satisfy, God's justice was satisfied with the death of Christ for the taking away of the sins of "every" person if they will accept the free gift.
 
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JoeP222w

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I really think the worst thing about Calvinism, T.U.L.I.P., or "Doctrines of Grace" (which is an oxymoron and misuse of the word grace), besides condemning millions to eternal damnation with no hope, is the way this theology slanders the character of God.

August 24, 2017
Hunt, Dave
It is a libel on the character of God to suggest that billions will go to hell simply because God didn’t want them in heaven—not because I have made this judgment, but because the Bible itself tells me in the clearest of terms that God loves the whole world, He sent His Son to redeem the whole world, and He wants the whole world to be saved. All other verses about election must take this fact into account.


"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

—1 John:2:2
Apples of Gold - August 24

Dave Hunt completely misrepresented Calvinism and he refused to be corrected.

Does God have no right to do with His creation as He chooses? Has the Potter no right over the clay?

We don't know the identity of the elect. And no one in Hell will ever be able to say, "I wanted to be saved, but God would not choose me."
 
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JoeP222w

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Yeah, Calvinism is pretty out there in left field. Not sure how people can actually buy this type of belief, but yet they do somehow. The problem is that Calvinism seeks to paint God in a bad light (that is not true).


...

I would argue that almost all who are against Calvinism have a complete misunderstanding of it, as well as the fact that they cannot support their own perspective from a proper exegesis of scripture.
 
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JoeP222w

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One verse of many to dispel Calvinism:

“For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:6‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Christ doesn't for the ungodly (the world), not just the elect.

How does that dispel Calvinism?
 
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Hammster

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That's outrageously audacious of you Hammster to be so prideful as to say that Dave Hunt, who now is at home with the Lord, is a convinced Calvinist.

Dave Hunt was promoted to glory on April 5, 2013. He now knows what the Bible said is true, not that only Calvinism or only Arminianism is true.

img.jpg



Oz
That's basically my point.
 
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Hammster

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No it's not, Hammster. It's your failure to accept that Jesus provided a propitiatory sacrifice for the whole world but only those who accept Jesus by grace through faith are saved.

Your theology does not allow for human beings who reject Jesus' propitiation for them. That's one of the deficiencies in your system -- as well as ULI in TULIP.

Your TULIP Calvinism stumbles over the truth of free will that started at the beginning of time when God gave Adam and Eve the choice of eating or not eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Your hard-headed Calvinism will not allow you to include, Joshua 24:14-15 and mean what it states:

“Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”​

I have addressed this situation in my article, Choose does not mean choice! Joshua 24:15.

Your Calvinism stumbles over 'choice' and thus cannot handle the content of 1 John 2:2 (ESV), "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world".

Oz
Sorry, but Jesus didn't "provide" a satisfaction of God's wrath. The verse doesn't say He provided a propitiatory sacrifice. It says He is the propitiation. So any failure to understand what's clearly written is on you.
 
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Hammster

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Anyone who even superficially reads the Bible realizes that though it says Christ paid for the sins of the world, it also says one must repent and believe the gospel message. That is not universalism.
I never said it was. You are moving the goalposts. Let's stick with propitiation, shall we? Or we can talk about "world". Either is good.
 
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