What if they Got it all wrong?

GingerBeer said:

What would you do if you discovered that

Click to expand...

Like you write "if" ...
fortunately none of the above is true and so none of us need worry about it.

PanDeVida said:

Only the Catholic Church can forgive or retain sins,

Click to expand...

Actually I confess my sins directly to Jesus my Lord and God and through Jesus to my Father in
Heaven. It is much better to be forgiven and chastised from my Father than from some man who
is equally sinful (perhaps more) than myself.
It is also the Bible way. The veil has been torn asunder and I can come into the Holy of Holies by
the Holy Spirit right up to the throne of grace.
We no longer need to go through an earthly priest. This has been done away with.

Amazing Horse said:

Well God does not change Malachi 3:6

And he is consuming fire.. Hebrews 12:29

And some people were drunk while doing sacrifice and God devour them with fire that one time Leviticus 10:1-10

But now we have Jesus Christ as our high priest so nothing can go wrong Hebrews 4:14-16

Click to expand...

Unless you receive the Eucharist unworthily; then you could get sick and/or die.
1 Corinthians 11:27-30.

fhansen said:

Ok, slaughter; rape was a side-"benefit".

Click to expand...

No, my point was that your change that God ordered rape "as a side benefit shows that you are a blasphemer who can't back up his claims. btw, for many years< I was a theology professor at a large Catholic university.

W2L said:

I think its unwise to follow a church simply because they claim to be old. What advantage do you have as a cathiolic, that i as a protestant dont? Please open your eyes and see the truth.

Click to expand...

I could say the same to yourself. I was Protestant for many years. The church's claim to be old isn't the deciding factor in itself. But the Church knew the faith and preached it before a word of the New Testament was written. The church didn't need to appeal to Scripture to decide whether or not the day of rest and worship should be Saturday or Sunday, the Lord’s Day. Or whether or not Jesus is really present in the Eucharist. Or whether or not to baptize infants. Or whether or not baptism regenerates. These points are plausibly argued either way going by Scripture alone-and sincere everyday folk as well as erudite scholars disagree on them based on Scripture alone. But the Church lived and practiced these and many other teachings based on the gospel she received-no need to debate, no need to exegete. That’s the church we should look for, wherever it’s to be found.

GingerBeer said:

What would you do if you discovered that the canonical scriptures really do contain 73 books?
What would you do if Apostolic tradition really is revelation from God?
What would you do if Sola Fide and Sola scriptura were wrong?
What would you do if Bishops and Elders (priests) and deacons really are the church officers ordained by God?
What would you do if the five Patriarchs really were called by God to govern the church of God?
What would you do if the Patriarch of Rome really were the first among equals and also the final authority to whom disputed matters were to be referred?
What would you do if church councils really did have God given authority to decide and declare the doctrines of the Christian faith whenever the councils were ratified by the Patriarch of Rome?

Click to expand...

Go back to reading my Bible.

Winken said:

Go back to reading my Bible.

Click to expand...

Count me in, too.

GingerBeer said:

I see. Does that mean you're infallible?

Click to expand...

Of course not; why would you think that?

GingerBeer said:

Because you're so certain that the "me" is in the texts that you read even though "me" is not mentioned in them

Click to expand...

Scripture says that God so loved the world - I am in the world.
Scripture says that all are sinners - that includes me.
Scripture says that Christ died for sinners - I am a sinner.
Scripture says that whoever has the Son of God has life, John 3:36, 1 John 5:12.
Jesus says that whoever comes to me I will never turn away, John 6:37 - I have done that; drawn by the Holy Spirit, true, but nevertheless, I have come to Jesus.
Jesus said that whoever drinks the water that he offers will never be thirsty again, John 4:14. This refers to receiving the Holy Spirit.
Scripture says that the Gospel is that Christ died for our sins and was raised again, 1 Corinthians 15:3-5, and that whoever believes this and trusts in Jesus has eternal life, Acts 2:38-39; Romans 5:6-8; Romans 10:9-10; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15; 1 John 3:16; 1 John 5:12. I believe the Gospel.
The whole Bible teaches that God created us, that mankind rebelled against, and chose to disobey, God. It says that God made it possible for people to be forgiven and know him - hence the giving of the OT law, animal sacrifices etc - and that mankind was unable to keep his law and covenant. It says also that God said that he would make a new covenant with mankind, that in time he himself came to earth, in Jesus, and laid down his own life for our sins; the spotless lamb of God, 1 Peter 1:19-20, who gave himself for the sins of the world, Mark 10:45; Matthew 26:28; John 1:29.

Those who heard Peter, Philip, Paul etc preach this Gospel were saved, Acts 2:41,47; Acts 8:34-38; Acts 17:3-4. John wrote his letters so that people would KNOW that they had eternal life and were saved. 1 John 5:13.
Why would you think that I, and anyone else who reads the NT, am not included in this; that the Gospel applies to only a few?
Following on from that, are you sure that you are saved, follow Jesus and have eternal life and the Holy Spirit who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance, 2 Corinthians 5:5? Do you have any reason to believe that this Gospel applies to other people, but not to you?

GingerBeer said:

so I guess you interpret them as applying to "me"

Click to expand...

As God himself took on flesh, Jesus told us about God and how to live for him, and these words have been written down and were, and are, translated into other languages so that all people could understand them - I'd say it is reasonable to conclude that God wants ALL people - because he made us ALL, in his image - to know about him and his love for us. In fact Jesus told his disciples to go into the world, and to the ends of the earth, and preach this. So it is indeed reasonable to conclude that the Gospel is for me; otherwise why have a Bible? Why did God inspire people to write all these things down, if they are not applicable to the people who read them?

GingerBeer said:

and that is extra-biblical revelation if it is absolutely certain ...

Click to expand...

It's not extra Biblical revelation, it's Scripture. Otherwise, the Bible is just a history book and the Christian faith is for other people.
Why become a Christian, go to church, read the Bible, even HAVE churches and the Bible, if you don't believe the Gospel is for you?

And by the way, the Gospel is infallible, as is God.
I am not. I am a human being living in a fallen, sinful world - born again and filled with the Holy Spirit, yes, but still affected by sin, temptation etc. And as I don't know everything, and certainly not the future, I make mistakes - just like everyone else.

But my faith is in Jesus, the Word of God, and God's word revealed in the Bible; these are infallible.

Forgive me...

@OrthodoxyUSA
I like your time graph. Although I believe that there are "denominational" differences in the
Orthodox family of Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

But I give you another timeline worth thinking about
Day One: The Day Of Pentecost 33AD the original church of believers and disciples preached and governed by the Apostles through the Holy Spirit ... today the same gospel, the same experience
the same preaching and governance Mark 16:15-20 still happening. Acts 2:38 still preached
1 Corinthians 12 and 1 Corinthians 14 still upheld and experienced.
Jude 1:20 still obeyed.
As it was in the beginning is still being believed and put into action.

Waggles said:

@OrthodoxyUSA
I like your time graph. Although I believe that there are "denominational" differences in the
Orthodox family of Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

But I give you another timeline worth thinking about
Day One: The Day Of Pentecost 33AD the original church of believers and disciples preached and governed by the Apostles through the Holy Spirit ... today the same gospel, the same experience
the same preaching and governance Mark 16:15-20 still happening. Acts 2:38 still preached
1 Corinthians 12 and 1 Corinthians 14 still upheld and experienced.
Jude 1:20 still obeyed.
As it was in the beginning is still being believed and put into action.

Click to expand...

What could be wrong with any of that?
I didn't see you mention the Divine Liturgy, nor the Anaphora prayers. or even a protion if it? You are speaking of non Orthodox Churches correct?

Forgive me...

Waggles said:

@OrthodoxyUSA
I like your time graph..
..But I give you another timeline worth thinking about
Day One: The Day Of Pentecost 33AD the original church of believers and disciples preached and governed by the Apostles through the Holy Spirit ... today the same gospel, the same experience
the same preaching and governance Mark 16:15-20 still happening. Acts 2:38 still preached
1 Corinthians 12 and 1 Corinthians 14 still upheld and experienced.
Jude 1:20 still obeyed.
As it was in the beginning is still being believed and put into action.

Click to expand...

That would describe the Orthodox Church.
The only possible alteration is the organizational arrangement, simply because of the growth and expanse of the church. Even still the core is still the same.

Strong in Him said:

Jesus forgives sins.
We can be forgiven for our sins without belonging to the Catholic church.

Click to expand...

Amen. There is only one mediator between God and man. It's not a priest of any branch of Christianity. It's Jesus Christ Himself.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

Forgive me...

Click to expand...

.
Strange, I have seen exactly the same graph posted by Catholics, but there is a difference, The Holy Roman Catholic Church is placed on the bottom, as you have placed the Unchanged Orthodox Church.

Both of these organizations put forward that Protestants broke away from the One True Church, but then again both of these organizations also put forward that the other, Meaning (Orthodox, or Catholic) broke away from the One True Church first.....(Whereby, each organization Excommunicated each other form Fellowship)

Who is right here, and what do you think would have been the outcome if the original split (Schism) had not taken place (1054-1139), what do you think the chances would be that the Church would still be together as ONE?

When you come to think about it, the Protestants never actually broke away from the Orthodox Church ever.

There was never a breaking away (Rebellion as some call it) from the Catholic Church either, because the Catholic Church through Leo, Excommunicated Luther and Calvin and the like, before they ever had a chance, rather than change their Pope-ish practices of selling indulgences.

Have you ever really taken the time to read all of the 95 Thesis of Luther?