[POLL] Should Christians Rest and Keep Holy the Sabbath Day?

BobRyan · Aug 22, 2017

Uber Genius said:
If you child rebels do you stone them? Do you keep all the 600+ commandments in the Torah. Obviously not. Your premise is false prima facie

You need to read more -- allow yourself to look at the Westminster Confession of Faith -- Bible details so obvious that both sides of this debate admit to them.

Helpful link to this board this forum page 1...
Oct 8, 2015 #5

No sense in getting stuck on the very part where BOTH sides of the debate find agreement on the Bible details...

CDF47 · Aug 22, 2017

Dkh587 said:
Don't let anybody persuade you to disobey God's command to remember/keep/guard the Sabbath

Remember what Christ said:

The Sabbath was made for man.

The goal of the devil is to get us to discard and disobey God's commands. If you find anybody encouraging you and teaching you to disobey God, or to stop obeying/keeping His commands, think long and hard about that person - it's not a person you should be listening to

Love of God = obeying His commandments(which includes Sabbath)

According to God in Deuteronomy 13, persuading and enticing people to disobey and abandon God's commands is worthy of death. It's that serious. God doesn't like people leading his children astray.

There are plenty of people everywhere(including this board) doing the above mentioned. Be careful. Peace.

Thanks for the advice. I want to be real clear about this before I stop resting and keeping the Sabbath day holy.

Some may be on here to lead people astray on purpose and others may mean well but be wrong on this subject. Yeah, it is good to be careful about this.

CDF47 · Aug 22, 2017

BobRyan said:
Deut 5 says first and foremost to recall the Commands spoken by God at Sinai 40 years before - rather than "forget what God actually spoke - I am giving you a change of orders" --

"“Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I am speaking today in your hearing, that you may learn them and observe them carefully. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb."

4 The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire, 5 while I was standing between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain. He said,
6 ‘I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
7 ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.

Very different from "Forget whatever the LORD said when he spoke to you -- I am now making up new stuff" as we all can see and all can agree.

Good point. I was unsure what the Deut 5 point was when it was mentioned.

CDF47 · Aug 22, 2017

Uber Genius said:
While I respect your commitment to keep the commandments, and recognize that the issue of Sabbath-keeping is a live option, one that I could presently have false beliefs about (as I don't keep sabbath), this exegesis of the passage above seems wrong construed.

The context is not if you want to demonstrate love of God according to Shema, then keep all the commandments, but instead, if you want to keep the law love God and love your neighbor. So I would not choose this scripture to support a keeping-the-commandments inference.

This scripture is data used to support a premise in an argument that the law has fulfilled God's purposes. At least it seems that way.

That is how I always understood it since the Lord said all the other commandments hang on these two greatest commandments and it is known the commandments of the Moral Law is what He was referring to.

BobRyan · Aug 22, 2017

CDF47 said:
Thanks for the advice. I want to be real clear about this before I stop resting and keeping the Sabbath day holy.

Some may be on here to lead people astray on purpose and others may mean well but be wrong on this subject. Yeah, it is good to be careful about this.

Jesus was pretty clear on the subject -

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW"

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

James 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

And of course - Mark 7 as we saw here -

BobRyan said:
Mark 7:6-13
” 6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Uber Genius · Aug 22, 2017

CDF47 said:
That is how I always understood it since the Lord said all the other commandments hang on these two greatest commandments and it is known the commandments of the Moral Law is what He was referring to.

But we are not postmodernists. It can have meant one thing to Jesus' audience and another us, could it. To avoid reading our own meaning in, we look at context, and we can consult various resources including commentaries.

BobRyan · Aug 22, 2017

CDF47 said:
That is how I always understood it since the Lord said all the other commandments hang on these two greatest commandments and it is known the commandments of the Moral Law is what He was referring to.

Yes "all the Law and the prophets" as he said in Matthew 22 and the Pharisees agreed. They were not thinking that Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 "deleted the Ten Commandments" -- that is not good exegesis to insert that idea into their discussion in Matthew 22.

Uber Genius · Aug 22, 2017

BobRyan said:
You need to read more -- allow yourself to look at the Westminster Confession of Faith -- Bible details so obvious that both sides of this debate admit to them.

Helpful link to this board this forum page 1...
Oct 8, 2015 #5

No sense in getting stuck on the very part where BOTH sides of the debate find agreement on the Bible details...

So you sound strangely different than your appeals to emotion and rhetorical bumper-sticker theological approach.

You are conceding my approach of examining all live options to the best inference to the various pieces of data?

Bravo, that approach will lead to much more knowledge.

The "You need to read more," comment is still an attempt to berate and discount others inferences rather than replying on valid premises and sound arguments, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

BobRyan · Aug 22, 2017

Uber Genius said:
If you child rebels do you stone them? Do you keep all the 600+ commandments in the Torah. Obviously not. Your premise is false prima facie

You need to read more -- allow yourself to look at the Westminster Confession of Faith -- Bible details so obvious that both sides of this debate admit to them.

Helpful link to this board this forum page 1...
Oct 8, 2015 #5

No sense in getting stuck on the very part where BOTH sides of the debate find agreement on the Bible details...

Uber Genius said:
You are conceding my approach of examining all live options to the best inference to the various pieces of data?

I was specifically addressing your "600 commands" of the OT vs 1150 commands of the NT (as if someone had put a "limit on God") -- and pointing to the way your own pro-sunday scholars address that point .. providing a link so you can read what they say as even they affirm all TEN of the TEN Commandments included in the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant.

No sense in getting stuck on the easy-parts where both sides agree.

CDF47 · Aug 22, 2017

Uber Genius said:
What if every church on the planet had false beliefs in some area of their doctrine?

If they have the core beliefs correct and provide a place for you to practice your gifts to build up the local body, does it matter?

Many can struggle for years to find a church that agrees with their own view of doctrine, only to miss the weightier portions of being a disciple. In many ways this approach, "Strains the gnat."

I agree but good doctrine is important as well. Just have to make a wise decision on a church to attend after testing them out and choose one.

Uber Genius · Aug 22, 2017

BobRyan said:
Jesus was pretty clear on the subject -

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 3:31 "do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the LAW"

John 9:40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

James 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

And of course - Mark 7 as we saw here -

Wow.

Okay, what was the context of he pericope in Matt 5:17-48?

Did you think no one out here would ask that question?

Who is he talking to, Jesus audience?

What is there opinion of how one gains relationship with God?

What does Jesus say to correct he misunderstanding of the religious leaders?

Do you really think you can fulfill the intent of the law the way Jesus describes in this passage?

This passage was put in place to correct the legalism of the religious leaders. Not as an example of how Christians gain maturity in Christ. Or all of Paul becomes incoherent!

CDF47 · Aug 22, 2017

Uber Genius said:
So see what just did there?

You changed the context of my claim.

I claimed 4 options for exegeting Romans 14:5ff

You claimed Paul couldn't have been referring to sabbath (option 4)

I said give scholarly reference for why the scholars got it wrong about option 4.

You replied with a non sequitur and no scholarly references. My request still stands.

Matthew Henry (Puritan Christian scholar) did not include the Sabbath in Romans 14:5-6. He says the Lord's Day was the exception. I believe the Lord's Day is the Sabbath which was attempted to be changed to Sunday.

Romans 14 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)

Uber Genius · Aug 22, 2017

BobRyan said:
(This thread is wayyy more fun than I had at first anticipated it would be. )

I had personally hoped for much more.

Namely an attempt at exegesis rather than eisogesis. Secondly, a focus on systematics rather than lifting quotes out of context and stringing them together in a way no second-temple Jew or gentile would have understood them. Thirdly, your stubborn reliance on rhetorical flourish rather than premises and sound arguments.

I think we have reached a crossroad where I don't expect fruitful discussion. I will read your comments and do accept the Ten Commandments are still in force to the extent the HS writes them on our heart. We will have to disagree on where we land qua how we define obedience to God's commands.

CDF47 · Aug 22, 2017

Uber Genius said:
But we are not postmodernists. It can have meant one thing to Jesus' audience and another us, could it. To avoid reading our own meaning in, we look at context, and we can consult various resources including commentaries.

Are there commentaries that refute that?

CDF47 · Aug 22, 2017

BobRyan said:
Yes "all the Law and the prophets" as he said in Matthew 22 and the Pharisees agreed. They were not thinking that Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 "deleted the Ten Commandments" -- that is not good exegesis to insert that idea into their discussion in Matthew 22.

I agree.

Uber Genius · Aug 22, 2017

CDF47 said:
I agree but good doctrine is important as well. Just have to make a wise decision on a church to attend after testing them out and choose one.

No doubt, but the question is at what depth do you want to set your search algorithm? Nicene Creed? Or Sabbatarian? And what does it really matter? While you are searching for the "Right" church doctrinally you could have built up hundreds in the church that only had the "Right Essential doctrine." Hat could be a small handful of beliefs rather than 20 or 25 doctrines.

CDF47 · Aug 22, 2017

Uber Genius said:
No doubt, but the question is at what depth do you want to set your search algorithm? Nicene Creed? Or Sabbatarian? And what does it really matter? While you are searching for the "Right" church doctrinally you could have built up hundreds in the church that only had the "Right Essential doctrine." Hat could be a small handful of beliefs rather than 20 or 25 doctrines.

True.

Uber Genius · Aug 22, 2017

CDF47 said:
Are there commentaries that refute that?

Misses the point.
We aren't looking for certainty where 100% of scholars agree. We are trying to beat understand what various authors said to their audiences based on context, and genre, figures of speech, in a language that doesn't exist anymore, in a culture that is almost 2000 years old or 3500 years old. Not what he English sentence means to us.

A good commentary will give he reader a survey of the possible meanings and and argument and evidence for why they chos one meaning over the others. You can determine who gives the best evidence for their position.

What one can't do is take passages out of context (as some out here are doing)!

Ignore genre!

Ignore progressive revelation!

ignore figures of speech!

Use rhetorical appeals, fallacy, etc.

We should calmly, analytically examine texts and themes and make judgements.

Cutting and pasting English sentences out of context and past them into arguments is how false doctrine is created.

Struggling with passages, then assembling various authors' views , followed by systematically topical treatment is how we avoid mistakes.

CDF47 · Aug 22, 2017

Uber Genius said:
Misses the point.
We aren't looking for certainty where 100% of scholars agree. We are trying to beat understand what various authors said to their audiences based on context, and genre, figures of speech, in a language that doesn't exist anymore, in a culture that is almost 2000 years old or 3500 years old. Not what he English sentence means to us.

Needed to be a bit more clear. I agree and it's not an easy task.

stuart lawrence · Aug 22, 2017

CDF47 said:
Thanks for the advice. I want to be real clear about this before I stop resting and keeping the Sabbath day holy.

Some may be on here to lead people astray on purpose and others may mean well but be wrong on this subject. Yeah, it is good to be careful about this.

Why should you stop observing a specific saturday sabbath? No need at all.
You follow the Bible. You don't insist everyone else must observe a set Saturday sabbath. That's what matters. Keep being happy as you are in my view

[POLL] Should Christians Rest and Keep Holy the Sabbath Day?

Should Christians Rest and Keep Holy the Sabbath Day?

Yes

No

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

"Super Genius"

Junior Member

"Super Genius"

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

"Super Genius"

Well-Known Member

"Super Genius"

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

"Super Genius"

Well-Known Member

"Super Genius"

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads