TLT Catholics (and other liberals) Confederate Statues Removed

Shiloh Raven · Aug 21, 2017

Please take note: I'm asking for the opinions from the liberal Catholics in this forum and other liberal Christians in general. I want to have a discussion with them about what I said here in my OP. I don't care to hear anything from a conservative viewpoint in this thread. My thread isn't meant for conservative Christians or for conservative political opinions. So, please don't take my thread off topic by posting conservative political views or by causing an argument over liberalism here. Thanks.

TLT Catholics and other liberals: Here are some questions you can answer and then we can discuss our answers in further detail in this thread. I'll reserve my answers for later.

What do you think of all the Confederate statues being removed? Do you think it's right or wrong to remove the statues? Do you think these statues should be placed in a museum?

Do you think the uprise of white supremacy is the main reason or the only reason behind the sudden outrage against these statues or anything else having to do with the Confederacy?

Please remember that my thread isn't meant for conservative Christians or for conservative political opinions. I want to talk with the Catholic members in this specific liberal Catholic sub-forum and with other liberals, hence, the reason why I posted my thread in this particular sub-forum.

Tallguy88 · Aug 21, 2017

Emerald Flame said:
Please take note: I'm asking for the opinions from the liberal Catholics in this forum and other liberal Christians in general. I want to have a discussion with them about what I said here in my OP. I don't care to hear anything from a conservative viewpoint in this thread. My thread isn't meant for conservative Christians or for conservative political opinions. So, please don't take my thread off topic by posting conservative political views or by causing an argument over liberalism here. Thanks.

TLT Catholics and other liberals: Here are some questions you can answer and then we can discuss our answers in further detail in this thread. I'll reserve my answers for later.

What do you think of all the Confederate statues being removed?

I don't care for it. I think it's feel-good whitewashing.

Do you think it's right or wrong to remove the statues?

In general, I don't feel it is an issue of right or wrong. No more than removing any other statue of historical figures would be. I think it is wrong to vandalize them or remove/destroy them illegally, however.

Do you think these statues should be placed in a museum?

As opposed to what? Better a museum than destroyed. Better in a cemetery or park than hidden in a museum, though.

Do you think the uprise of white supremacy is the main reason or the only reason behind the sudden outrage against these statues or anything else having to do with the Confederacy?

It's a very complicated issue. Certainly white supremacists do cling to the trappings of the CSA. But a lot of ordinary non-racist Southerners also honor and respect the CSA and those who fought for it. People of good faith and character can wind up on either side of the debate and shouldn't be demonized as if they were with the extreme fringes of either side (ie, not everyone who honors the CSA is a racist klansman who wants to reinstate slavery and not everyone who is opposed to it is a lawless rioter hiding behind a black mask). The problem is that neither side is willing to compromise or meet in the middle on these issues.

Colin · Aug 21, 2017

Emerald Flame , I don't know much about these statues , living here in the UK .

Below is a short article from the BBC ......
Why the fuss over Confederate statues? - BBC News

I quote three piece from the article .

"often serve as an offensive reminder of America's history of slavery and racial oppression."

"It was not until the turn of the century, as southern states began to enact so-called Jim Crow laws designed to deprive recently freed slaves of equal rights, that the monuments began to go up in public spaces."

"The second wave came in the 1950-1960s, as civil rights campaigners demanded desegregation and equal rights for African-Americans."

If the above quotes are accurate , I would say demolish them because they are nothing but tokens to foster racism , and as a Catholic I know that racism is one of the greatest evils .

Tallguy88 · Aug 21, 2017

Colin said:
Emerald Flame , I don't know much about these statues , living here in the UK .

Below is a short article from the BBC ......
Why the fuss over Confederate statues? - BBC News

I quote three piece from the article .

"often serve as an offensive reminder of America's history of slavery and racial oppression."

"It was not until the turn of the century, as southern states began to enact so-called Jim Crow laws designed to deprive recently freed slaves of equal rights, that the monuments began to go up in public spaces."

From your own article:

"Most Confederate monuments were not built until nearly a generation after the war ended in 1865, mostly due to a lack of funds during the Reconstruction era."

The South was under military occupation and marshal law for over a decade after the war ended. They couldn't put up any monuments then, and even afterwards, we were so economically devastated that most of the South was very impoverished thanks to the North waging total war against us and burning everything to the ground. Even universities and libraries were burned by order of the Yankee generals like Sherman. So it took time before the veterans and their children could feasibly build monuments. Before that, they certainly did still honor their fallen comrades with holidays and parades and such.

"The second wave came in the 1950-1960s, as civil rights campaigners demanded desegregation and equal rights for African-Americans."

If the above quotes are accurate , I would say demolish them because they are nothing but tokens to foster racism , and as a Catholic I know that racism is one of the greatest evils .

You would be wrong if you believe that is their only purpose. Like any symbol, every person can take a different meaning from them. It wasn't a clear war of good vs evil, as it sometimes is simplified to be. Many good Catholics/Christians fought for both sides.

Fantine · Aug 21, 2017

A suggestion was made to change the plaque on the Statue signifying that this was a shameful period in U.S. history and that the figure depicted was fighting for an unjust cause.

That would be acceptable to me.

Confederate symbols should not be mascots. Lee's birthday should not be a holiday.

Genersis · Aug 22, 2017

I'll start by saying I don't think they should of gone up in the first place. But perhaps nothing could of been done to prevent such.

As for now, yes, I think they should be taken down. We don't need monuments which celebrate people who essentially represent the wrong side of what are still very much current and sensitive issues relating to race, white supremacy and political violence.

They do have historic value and as such I would rather see them removed and preserved elsewhere, with their implicit celebratory nature neutralised.

Goatee · Aug 22, 2017

Then, why shouldn't Auschwitz be demolished or even the Colleseum in Rome?

Shiloh Raven · Aug 22, 2017

Goatee said:
Then, why shouldn't Auschwitz be demolished or even the Colleseum in Rome?

This thread isn't for debating. Please read the first and last paragraph of my OP. I'm asking for the opinions of the liberal Catholics in this forum and other liberal members. Your post is off topic.

tadoflamb · Aug 22, 2017

When I was a young tad I had a reconciliatory disposition towards the South. We're all Americans and I saw no use rubbing their defeat in their face. Even after spending some time in the South and discovering for some that the Civil War isn't over yet and racism is still alive and well, I still didn't see any need to remove Confederate statuary. I've got a lot of kin in the South and thought they never flew the flag they still had a lot of Southern pride.

Now that these statues have become a rallying point for white nationalists and nazis, I have changed my mind. They need to be retired to a sculpture graveyard where their story can still be told, but not held in esteem or honor.

A couple of side points. If the South is mostly fundamentalist protestant, what are they doing venerating statues? This seems really off to me.

If our president really loves winners, what is he doing siding with Nazi's and the Confederacy, two of the greatest losers in history?

Strange days.

Goatee · Aug 22, 2017

tadoflamb said:
When I was a young tad I had a reconciliatory disposition towards the South. We're all Americans and I saw no use rubbing their defeat in their face. Even after spending some time in the South and discovering for some that the Civil War isn't over yet and racism is still alive and well, I still didn't see any need to remove Confederate statuary. I've got a lot of kin in the South and thought they never flew the flag they still had a lot of Southern pride.

Now that these statues have become a rallying point for white nationalists and nazis, I have changed my mind. They need to be retired to a sculpture graveyard where their story can still be told, but not held in esteem or honor.

A couple of side points. If the South is mostly fundamentalist protestant, what are they doing venerating statues? This seems really off to me.

If our president really loves winners, what is he doing siding with Nazi's and the Confederacy, two of the greatest losers in history?

Strange days.

Oh, ok, just thought it was an interesting counter question! I apologise

Tigger45 · Aug 22, 2017

I hate racism but history is history and believe the removal of these statues are a direct result of the events in Virginia. I'd prefer them in a museum but wouldn't push their removal at the current moment do to the social climate.

Now state flags that have Confederate symbolism is unexceptical to me because these flags should represent all of the state's citizens and should be respectful of all of their citizens.

Colin · Aug 22, 2017

I think there are two key questions to be asked about these statues .

What was the thinking behind their erection in the first place ?

What is the thinking behind those who today wish to see them stay where they are ?

I know little about them , but the little I do know keeps coming up with the word "racism" .

Racism cannot be tolerated by any Catholic . It is one of the worst evils Satan has used to lead people away from the will of God and to create havoc between peoples .

Mountain_Girl406 · Aug 22, 2017

Colin said:
I think there are two key questions to be asked about these statues .

What was the thinking behind their erection in the first place ?

What is the thinking behind those who today wish to see them stay where they are ?

I know little about them , but the little I do know keeps coming up with the word "racism" .

Racism cannot be tolerated by any Catholic . It is one of the worst evils Satan has used to lead people away from the will of God and to create havoc between peoples .

I think Colin asks the key question, why and when were they erected. There's compelling evidence that they were often erected at significant times in civil rights history, not to honor the Civil War participants they portray but instead to continue to protest equality.

TLT Catholics (and other liberals) Confederate Statues Removed

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