COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

Hi BobS,
Sorry I have been away a bit. Some comments below for your consideration.

Bob S said:

LoveGodsWord said:
Ok Guys, Back for another section. All of each parts 1 to 4 can be read alone to come to a final conclusion but as you can see it is very conclusive when you look at all of God's Word that Col 2 is in reference to the ceremonial laws of Moses and the annual festivals that all pointed to Jesus which were a shadow of things to come and not the 7th Day Sabbath which was part of the finished work of creation given by God to mankind before sin entered into the world.

So far it is as plain as mud.

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Now, now, now, Bob S, what is not clear to you from all the scripture that shows that Col 2 is referring to the ceremonial laws and feast days of Lev 23 that pointed to Jesus? There is much scripture provided. Parts 1 to 4 alone all draw the same conclusions. Each part read alone also come to the same conclusion that Col 2:14-17 is not referring to God’s 10 commandments including the 7th Day Sabbath.

Bob S said:

LoveGodsWord said:
PART 4 Continued from last post...........
The Memorial Seventh-day Sabbath
This is the distinction between the yearly ceremonial sabbaths and the Seventh-day Sabbath: obviously the Seventh-day Sabbath occurs on the last day of every week, but rather than being prophetic in nature, it is commemorative, a memorial to creation, established by God himself as scripture clearly tells us-
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

I wonder why SDAs do not ever mention that the Sabbath was to commemorate being led out of captivity in Egypt. The Deut. rendition has nothing to do with creation. We can only guess what was really written on those stones. Anyway I do agree that it commemorates something.

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Why would they not? The context of Ex 20:1-17 was God speaking the 10 commandments to the people he miraculously led out of Egypt. God’s reference to Egypt was bondage <SIN> (Ex 20:2) and this is in reference to ALL of the 10 commandments not just one. The commemoration verse is in Ex 20:11 and it is good you agree.

Bob S said:

LoveGodsWord said:
Because it is only commemorative, and not a shadow of things to come, the weekly Seventh-day Sabbath is really not part of the discussion in Colossians 2:17.
The word Sabbath means a period of rest. The old covenant weekly Sabbath is a shadow of the Rest we have in Jesus therefore your theory is off to bad start. It has no tie as to whether it is commemorative or not.

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Nope if you read the OP PART 1 it goes into this in detail. Some further information though out of interest. The root word of Sabbath used in Ex 20:8-11 comes from the same Hebrew word used in Gen 2:2 “REST” (H7673). The meaning of this word is שׁבת; shâbath; shaw-bath'; A primitive root; to repose, that is, desist from exertion; used in many implied relations (causatively, figuratively or specifically): - (cause to, let, make to) cease, celebrate, cause (make) to fail, keep (Sabbath), suffer to be lacking, leave, put away (down), (make to) rest, rid, still, take away. The Word Sabbath used in Ex 20 8:11 is the same root word meaning except it’s meaning is from one Sabbath to the next (every week). Ex 20:8 “SABBATH” (H7676); שׁבּת; Sabbath shab-bawth' Intensive from H7673; intermission, that is, (specifically) the Sabbath; every Sabbath.

Have a read of the OP it shows why God’s commandment (Ex 20:8-11) is not a Shadow and never has been because it is part of the finished work of creation and was given to mankind before sin entered the world. (Gen 2:1-3; Mark 2:27)

Bob S said:

LoveGodsWord said:
When this is understood, the weekly seventh-day Sabbath is clearly not a part of the prophetic sequence of events in the plan of salvation that are portrayed by the yearly ceremonial Sabbaths.
You are asking us to do something that cannot be understood.

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Of course it can be understood. God’s Word clearly tells us it can.

Bob S said:

LoveGodsWord said:
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Cor 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Paul didn't tell us it was the ceremonial laws that he was referring to. You have added your own meaning to scripture.

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I haven't added anything to scripture. Everything from the New Testament scriptures come from the Old Testament writings. The Old Testament scriptures clearly tell us what Paul is referring to in Col Chapter 2 as referenced with all the writings this chapter and Leviticus chapter 23. Also, just out of interest Col 2:14 even says what the chapter is talking about.

Col 2:14

Lets look at it but we will look also at the context from verse 14...14 (context),"Blotting out the handwriting" (Greek = manuscript legal document G5495) of "ordinances" (G1378 δόγμα, dogma; dog'-mah = civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical ordinance) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; So the context is the blotting out of the civil, ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws. So Paul is not talking about any of God's 10 commandments or moral law as the Greek word used is Dogma = ceremonial, ecclesiastical ordinances that were written in a book. Not those written by God on tables of stone.

Bob S said:

LoveGodsWord said:
Paul is saying that the believing Christian need not keep the ceremonial laws, the shadow sabbaths, because they find fulfillment in faith in Jesus Christ, the true passover lamb. The schoolmaster was the yearly ceremonial sabbaths associated with the Hebrew Temple, which taught the plan of salvation through a coming Messiah, the passover lamb of God. Now that salvation through Jesus of Nazareth is clear to the Gentile church, there is no further need of the schoolmaster (the earthly Temple, its ceremonies and shadow sabbaths) because that lesson has been learned by those with faith. However, nowhere does the Bible indicate that one of the Ten Commandments has been abrogated, or that the disciples or Jesus abandoned the weekly Seventh-day Sabbath for Sunday keeping. Indeed the Bible makes clear, that in the future all believers will keep the true Seventh-day Sabbath-

I think you are over stepping scripture by adding something that is not there. For instance the Feast of the Shelters has nothing to do with pointing to Jesus nor does the Feast of the Harvest. The Day of Atonement had to do with their sins. The Festival of Trumpets was a day of special gifts to the Lord. None of those special days pointed to anything in the New Testament. Passover or First Feast may have some significance, but Paul said all of them were shadows.

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Not at all. You may not have noticed or maybe I did not make myself clear enough in relation to the annual festivals was that the festivals all pointed to Jesus and the plan of salvation. To Jesus in his life, ministry on earth or in heaven now as our great high priest. In general though they are all shadow feast in that they pointed to some aspect of an unfinished work in relation to the plan of salvation weather earthly, heavenly or the second coming. This is why the 4th commandment can never be a shadow because it was part of the FINISHED work of the creation week and given BEFORE the fall of mankind and sin entered the world (Gen 2:1-3)

Bob S said:

LoveGodsWord said:
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” Are you sure you want to use Is 66:23 as a reference that we should be observing Sabbath? Do you really believe we will be going out and looking at dead bodies on the Sabbath? In Is 65 writing about the new earth Isaiah wrote that man would die and babies would be born. Is that your understanding of the events in the new Earth?

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Isa 66:24 is in reference to the 2nd coming and the fate of the wicked as is much of the proceeding Chapter of before verse 23 of Isa 66. Verse 24 is not in reference to the new earth but 2nd coming and the fate of the wicked..

Bob S said:

LoveGodsWord said:
God's Sabbath (Saturday) was never rescinded. It is eternal, intended as a constant reminder that we are created beings, responsible to our creator at the end of time. God's Sabbath was made in the creation week before mankind had sinned so can never be a shadow or type. The Seventh-day Sabbath will be kept in perpetuity by God's people because they are obedient and keep the commandments of God. This is particularly true as we near the end of time-

Tell that to Paul who wrote that the 10 commandments were only temporary commandments. 2Cor 3:7-11. Tell that to Jesus who fulfilled the law. Matt 5:17.

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Have you looked at other scripture and context in relation to 2Cor 3:7-11 and Matt 5:17? If you’re saying there are no more 10 commandments this is not true because that interpretation would contradict many scriptures. I will add a few for example; James 2:8-11; 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20; Romans 6:23; 1 John 3:5-10; Romans 7:7; 12-13 etc etc. 2Cor 3-7-11 as discussed earlier is in reference to God’s Law being the ministration of death because it points out our sins and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). It can never cure sin, it only points SIN out (Romans 7). It is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith (Gal 3:24). God’s Law shows us what sin is and is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh (sinful mind) but after the spirit (Matt 5:17-48; Romans 8:4)

Bob S said:

LoveGodsWord said: Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus
There you go trying to convince your readers that John was referring to the 10 commandments when he didn't begin to refer he meant the 10 commandments. Jesus is God. While on the Earth He kept His Father's commands and asked us to keep His commands. His commands are to believe in Him and love others as He loves us. 1Jn 3:19-24

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Revelations 14:12 is a scripture that is consistent with every other part of God's Word. The context of 1 John 3:19-24 you quoted is all about sin and breaking God’s 10 commandments. Take a look at the context.

1 John 3:4,
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 3:5,
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1John 3:6,
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:7,
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:8,
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9,
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 3:10,
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Salvation is from sin by faith in God’s Word. If we still sin we do not know God (1 John 2:4) SIN is knowingly and wilfully breaking of any of God’s 10 commandments (1 John 3:4; James 2:8-12). God’s 7th Day Sabbath is one of the 10 commandments (Ex 20:8-11).

Can you show me one scripture that says that God’s 7th Day Sabbath commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

In Christ Always!

Hi Doveaman,
This is from a response to your other thread that was closed for some reason. I though to to add it here as it is relevant here. Some comments below for your consideration.

Doveaman said:

LoveGodsWord said: Absolutely! Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit this is the New Covenant of God writing his Laws in our heart (Rom 8:1-4; Rom 13:9-19; Heb 8:10-12) But on the other hand it is not an excuse to break God's Law. If you are breaking God's Law (10 commandments) you have neither seen him nor known him because Jesus only gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him.
Your statements are self-contradicting. On the one hand you say that love is the fulfilling of God's Law, but then you say that we break God's law by violating the 10 commandments. If love is the fulfilling of God's Law, then we can only violate God Law by violating God's love, because love is the fulfilling of God's Law. Get it?

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No my statements above are not self-contradicting. God’s Word never contradicts itself. Let see why from God’s Word?

Statements 1: Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit this is the New Covenant of God writing his Laws in our heart (Rom 8:1-4; Rom 13:9-19; Heb 8:10-12). Self-explanatory with some of the new covenant scriptures provided above.
Statement 2: But on the other hand it is not an excuse to break God's Law. If you are breaking God's Law (10 commandments) you have neither seen him nor known him because Jesus only gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him.

Statement 1; God’s Law is written on the heart (Heb 8:10-12) so that we can love God and our neighbour. These are the two great commandments which all of God’s Law hangs on. (Deut 6:5; Lev 19:18; Matt 22:37-40). When this happens as we have faith in God’s Word we are doers (become obedient by faith) of the word and not hearers only deceiving our own selves (Col 2:12-13; James 1:22). This is why it is written elsewhere; For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Rom 2:13) If this is not the experience of the new covenant believer God’s Word says you are deceiving yourself (James 1:22; Rom 2:13). The new covenant is salvation from sin not in sin. If anyone is knowingly and wilfully committing sin God’s Word says you are deceiving yourself and have not seen or known God. (1 John 2:4; James 2:8-12; 1 John 3:6-9).

God’s Word never contradicts itself. If you find your interpretation of scripture contradicts other scripture it should be a warning sign to you that maybe what you believe is not correct. If any of us are knowingly and wilfully breaking any of God’s Laws, including God’s 7th Day Sabbath. God Word says we are deceiving ourselves, the truth is not in us and we are lying and are not from God. (James 2:8-12; Rom 2:13; James 1:22, 1 John 2:3-4)

Doveaman said:

LoveGodsWord said: 1 John 2:4,
He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
There is no 10 in that scripture you quoted, or even in the context of the scripture you quoted. "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

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1 John 2:4 is God’s Word and not mine. The scripture provided above does indeed include God’s 10 commandments. The context of 1 John 2:4 is about SIN. 1John 2:1-2,

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

What is Sin (from the same book)?

1 John 3:4,
Whosoever committeth sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. This is because God’s Law (10 commandments) gives us a knowledge of what sin is and it seems like the three witnesses (Paul, John and James) all agree on this. Romans 3:20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin and if we break one of these commandments we commit sin (James 2:8-12).

The scripture above in 1 John 3:4 is also followed by the same warning message as 1 John 2:4 in 1 John 3:6-10….

1John 3:6-10,
6 Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10, In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

All complimenting what was said earlier in the scripture quoted.

1John 2:3, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1John 2:4, He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

If any of us are knowingly and wilfully breaking any of God’s Laws, including God’s 7th Day Sabbath. God Word says we are deceiving ourselves, the truth is not in us. (James 2:8-12; Rom 2:13; James 1:22, 1 John 2:3-4)

Doveaman said:

Are you of the opinion that God's commandments are only limited to 10 commandments, or that the 10 commandments are superior to all of God’s other commandments? All of God's commandments are equal, and to violate one is to violate all, not just 10. Sin is the violation of all of God's commandments, not just 10.

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Man does not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matt 4:4). The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Ex 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Ps 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants and the Judgement to come (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12; Exe 36:26-27; Jer 31:33-34). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Ex 20:1-22). God’s 10 commandments are the spoken word of God (Ex 20:1-22). God’s Word does not pass away (Matt 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc.). God’s Law reveals sin to us and the penalty of sin so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Rom 6:23; Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Heb 10:26-28; Rom 1:29-32;2:-9;2Cor 5:10; Heb 9:27; Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood as we have faith (Gal 3:24; Rev 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Rom 13:10). This is why Jesus says to those that love him If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15).

Doveaman said:

All of God's commandments are inspired by His love and obeyed through His love, and to violate God's love is to disobey God Himself:

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Agree same as if you break any of God’s 10 commandments we violate God’s love.

John 15:10, If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Doveaman said:

Our confidence on the day of judgement is based on our love for God and neighbour, and not based on our obedience to 10 commandments.

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Yes because it is only by love that any of us can obey God. Love is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Rom 8:4)

Matthew 22:37-40,
37, Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38, This is the first and great commandment. 39, And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40, On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Did you know, Jesus is quoting from the Old Testament (Deut 6:5; Lev 19:18)

God’s Judgement is based on love but love produces the fruit of obedience to God’s Law as we have faith in God’s Word to save us from our sins and is why Jesus says elsewhere “If you love me keep my commandments (Matt 7:17-20; John 14:15)

Doveaman said:

LoveGodsWord said: If anyone is knowingly and willfully breaking God's 7th Day Sabbath or any of the 10 commandments you are not obeying God.
How can you say that after I showed from scriptures that the 7th Day Sabbath was wilfully and consistently broken by the Levite priests, and yet they were innocent of sin? "Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?'' (Matthew 12:5). I don't think you are being honest to the scriptures.

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Matt 12:5 is in reference to doing good on the Sabbath. The Jews had placed so many restrictions and on the Sabbath that it had become a burden to the people (context is Matt 12:2; see also Matt 12:10; Mark 2:24; 3:2-4 Luke 6:2; 7-9; 13:10-16 etc.) Then in Matt 12:10-12 in the same chapter Jesus goes on to say it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath! Jesus came to teach us how to keep the Sabbath and it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Mark 3:4; Luke 6:9) and is why Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27). This is why God’s Word says If anyone is knowingly and wilfully breaking any of the 10 commandments, including the 7th Day Sabbath you are deceiving yourself and not obeying or following God (James 2:8-12).

Doveaman said:

LoveGodsWord said: The context of Romans 2:14-15 in Romans 2 is about the Judgement and that all are accountable to God both Jews and Gentiles and there is no difference in God's eyes. Romans 2:12-13, For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. The context of Roman 2 is to the Jewish believers who were judging Gentile believers in relation to the laws of Moses (Romans 2:1-4). The next verses are referring to all man are equal in God's sight and all will be judged by God whether they know God's Law or not. "As many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Romans 5-13). The context of Romans 2:14-15 is in not judging the Gentile believers if they have God's Law written on their heart (Romans 2:14-15) even though they were never Israelite's that were given God's Law.
You keep making SDA arguments that are not consistent with the scriptures.

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There is no argument because it is God’s Word and no one else owns it except God. We are free to believe God or not to believe God. Jesus says; If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. We must choose if we want to believe God or follow that traditions and teaching of man over the Word of God. Can you show me one scripture from the Word of God that says God’s 7th Day Sabbath commandment is now abolished and we are commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? If you cannot why do you not believe God?

Doveaman said:

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." (Romans 2:12). Paul in Romans 2 is talking about two groups of people -- the Jews who rely on the law and the Gentiles who do not rely on the law. Those who rely on the law will be judged by the requirements of the law, and those who do not rely on the law will not be judged by the requirements of the law. It's that simple. It is interesting to note that we can sin apart from the law, showing that sin is not the transgression of the 10 commandment law.

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Nope. The scripture Romans 2:12 “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." Is saying what it is saying. If anyone breaks God’s Law they will be judged by the Law or perish by the Law. This is why it is written in the same book that all God’s Law (10 commandments) does is give a knowledge of sin and the wages of sin is death (Romans 3:20; Romans 6:23) and further supported in the next verse Romans 2:13 “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”

Doveaman said:

We are not declared righteous by obeying the letter of the law (the 10 commandment), instead we are declared righteous by surrendering to the Spirit of the law (the love of Christ): "And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).

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Correct no one can obey the letter of the Law for their salvation. We are only saved as we have Faith in God’s Word. As we do this it is God who works in us to save us from our sins. Love is the fulfilling (doing) of God’s Law in us who do not walk in the flesh (sinful mind) but after the Spirit. (Rom 8:1-4) God needs to write His Law in your heart before you can follow him. God’s Law (10 commandments) is the standard and definition of what righteousness is.

Ps 119:160
All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.
“righteous Law” from H4941; משׁפּט; mishpâṭ; mish-pawt'; = God's Divine Law or Judgement

Psa 119:172,
My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
“righteousness” from H6664; צדק; tsedeq; tseh'-dek = Moral law or Legal right doing

Psa 119:142,
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
“everlasting” from H5769; עולם עלם; ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm; o-lawm', o-lawm' = time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity always : - always (-s), ancient (time), continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

God’s salvation by faith in His Word produced righteousness in us because God’s Law is written in us as we have faith in His Word. This is how we are to walk (faith). Salvation is the operation of God in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Hebrews 8:10-12; Colossians 2:12; Romans 8:1-4)

Doveaman said:

Paul in Romans 2 is, in fact, talking about Gentiles who do not have the 10 commandment law, but who do have the love required by the law written in their hearts: “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15). Gentiles who do not have the law of 10 commandments, do obey by natural instinct the love required by the law, and they become a law for themselves since their actions are inspired by love from their hearts as required by the law, even though they do not have the 10 commandments.

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Romans 2 does not say that God's Law (10 commandments) have gone. The scriptures are only saying that God’s Laws can only be followed through love because they are written in the heart of the believer. Love is fulfilling (doing) God’s Law (Romans 13:9-10). The context is Romans 2:13, For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified but this is only achieved through love (Rom 13:9-10).

In Christ Always!

Hi Doveaman,
Some more comments for you to consider below.

Doveaman said:

LoveGodsWord said: No friend, actually I am not telling you what you have stated above. You are separating the English word "Holyday" which is one word used in Col 2:16 into two English words Holy and day.
What?! A holyday is a holy day and a feastday is a feast day. It doesn't matter if they are separated or stuck together.

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I think the point you did not pick up is that the Greek word “holyday” used in Col 2:16 is feast or festival not day

Doveaman said:

LoveGodsWord said: This maybe where you are confused as it is not referring to a day (singular) and it is something I have never said.
But I do agree it is not referring to a single day. It is referring to the seven annual feast or festivals days.

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Seems like a contradiction to the above statement maybe it was not your intent.

Doveaman said:

LoveGodsWord said: The correct English word used in Col 2:16 is one word Holyday ἑορτή heh-or-tay' it is not referring to a day (singular) it is referring to a feast or festival (not a day)
Exactly.

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In agreement. Great!

Doveaman said:

LoveGodsWord said: This is the within context of Col 2:16 as stated already to show what Paul is referring to. He is talking about the Jewish annual festivals. Continuing within the verse; and in relation to the Jewish annual festivals; it is the New Moons and Sabbath(s) within a "Jewish Festival" that were Holy convocations that no work was allowed within the annual festivals.
I think this is where we disagree. Even though the New Moon celebration was among the Jewish festivals, it was not a holy day/Sabbath like the seven annual festivals were. This is why Paul makes the distinction in Colossians 2. The New Moon celebration was just a minor festival that occurred every month. "The gate of the inner court facing east is to be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day and on the day of the New Moon it is to be opened." (Ezekiel 46:1). "'From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,' says the LORD." (Isaiah 66:23). Just as in the verses above, Paul is making the distinction between the annual convocations (holyday), the monthly convocations (new moon), and the weekly convocations (sabbath days):
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16).

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I do not disagree with a lot that you have written in this section. I will say however that you left out half the quote you were referencing me from however. It makes it read like it is something I was not saying. So you are not commenting on the full context of what I was actually saying. Maybe this was unintentional. Here let me add the rest of it for you (bold).

This is the within context of Col 2:16 as stated already to show what Paul is referring to. He is talking about the Jewish annual festivals. Continuing within the verse; and in relation to the Jewish annual festivals; it is the New Moons and Sabbath(s) within a "Jewish Festival" that were Holy convocations that no work <Sabbaton> was allowed within the annual festivals. These could fall on any day of the week and do not have to represent God's 7th Day Sabbath. These were the <Sabbath(s)> Sabbaton <G4521> that are being referred to in Col 2:16 because the annual feast all pointed to Jesus and were a shadow of things to come. Trying to separate Holy and day as you have started above is something I have never said and may be the cause of your confusion.

The Sabbath reference to Col 2:16 uses the Greek Word Sabbaton which means to cease from secular work. This is the same context and meaning as the references to holy convocations used in Lev 23 in reference to the 7 annual festivals (the word “holyday” is the Greek means “festival” used in Col 2:16). The holy convocations within the annual festivals; no secular work was to be done. These days could fall on any day of the week and were considered Sabbaton.

When it fell on the actual 7th Day Sabbath it was a high Sabbath day (John 19:31). These are the sabbath(s) referred to in Col 2:16 along with the new moon sabbaths (monthly) which could also fall on any day of the week. It was these festivals that and ceremonial sabbath(s) (annual holy convocations and new moon monthly sabbaths) that pointed to Jesus that were nailed to the cross not the 7th Day Sabbath of God’s 4th commandment.

Paul was making reference to the Jewish Festivals of Lev 23 which included everything quoted in Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in 1. meat or in drink, or in 2. respect of an holyday <Festival>, or of the 3. new moon, or of the sabbath(s) Col 2:17, Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

All points 1 to 4 highlighted above in Col 2:16 are in reference to the annual festivals of Leviticus 23 and not God’s 4th Commandment (Ex 20:8-11)

Doveaman said:

LoveGodsWord said: Actually if you read my post 325 the "High Sabbath" is not referring to the seven annual feast/festivals.
Actually, it is referring to the seven annual feast/festivals.

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A high Sabbath for example in John 19:31 “The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, for that Sabbath day was an high day, besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.”

A High Sabbath was when one of the Festival sabbaths (holy convocations), which can fall on any day of the week from the annual festivals, falls on God’s 7th Day weekly Sabbath. In the case of John 19:31 above the high Sabbath referred to is the day after the Passover which is the feast of unleavened bread which was a holy convocation which was the colliding of two sabbaths on the same day (Lev 23:6-8).
That year of Jesus death fulfilled the prophecy of that festival which pointed to the death of Jesus. Paul further writes about this in Corinthians.

1Co 5:7-8,
Purge out therefore the old leaven that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Doveaman said:

LoveGodsWord said: It is referring to a time when a Holy convocation day from an annual Jewish feast falls on the same day as the 7th Day weekly Sabbath of God's commandment. Once again as shown above these days are not the Holyday referred to in Col 2:16.
Actually, they are: "Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." (John 19:31). The "high day/Sabbath" here is referring to the first of the seven annual feast/festivals called the Feast of Unleavened Bread: "The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. And on the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins…On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work…And on the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work." (Leviticus 23:6-7). Jesus was crucified on the day of the Passover ("the fourteenth day of the first month"), and on the following day ("the fifteenth day of that month") there was an annual Sabbath which is referred to in John 19:31 as a "high day". This "high day/Sabbath" (the Feast of Unleavened Bread) was the first of the seven annual holyday/Sabbaths in Leviticus 23.

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Yes correct! I agree with what you have said here as referenced in my first sentence you are quoting from. The second sentence I am just referring to the Greek word for “holyday” not meaning a single day but a full festival (all the days within a festival as referenced in Lev 23)

Col 2:14-17 is clearly not referring to God’s 4th commandment as it is referring to Lev 23 and the Shadow feasts that pointed to Jesus. People try to use it to follow man-made traditions over the Word of God. Sunday Worship is a man-made teach and tradition that has not one scripture that supports it’s following. There is not one scripture in the entire bible that says God’s 7th Day Sabbath is abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day to God. Jesus is “Lord of the Sabbath” he made this day for us and we should follow him (Mark 2:27-28).


In Christ Always!

stuart lawrence said:

In the thread: ( Poll) Should Christians rest and keep holy the sabbath)
LGW states in post 321 of that thread, and I quote:

Gods forever law( the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the old and the new covenants and the very foundation and basis of the true gospel of Christ. It will be the basis of the judgement where we will all be held accountable to God.
Unquote

So to LGW the foundation of the NCis not Christ but the TC. And the basis of the Christians judgement will be their obedience to the TC, the law the Bible says is the letter that kills/ the ministry of death and condemnation. The second greatest commandment, is obviously not part of the basis of the Christians judgement. SDA may try and skillfully use words to avoid Admitting their true core belief, but every now and again they let it slip out. Justification/ righteousness/attaining heaven on the basis of observing the written code/ law. I have never met any sda who understood Pauls message, I don't expect ever to either: But now, by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not the old way of the written code Rom7:6

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Hi Stuart,

Why you would seek to twist what I say in order to try and make it seem like I am saying something that I am not is a little dissappointing. I have added the whole post with link below which is my testimony. As if Jesus is not central to my post? I have highlighted your section above within the post below and added the scriptures so all can see the context. The context for any that do not want to read my testimony below is about God's Law (10 commandments) being central Gospel because it is the character of Jesus through love that points out sin and leads us to Christ.

POST 321

Thanks for sharing your testimony Stuart and nice talking to you all.

It is late my end so I thought this may be the last post for me before calling it a night (my end). I thought I would share my testimony as well and leave you guys with a few thoughts.

This is my testimony.

When I first started reading God's Word, I believed that I needed to keep God's Law (10 commandments) for my salvation accepting the death and life of Jesus. I was very exacting in what I believed at the time and tried to be very strict in my observance to obey God's Law. I found after some time that the harder I tried the more I saw myself as a sinner going through a cycle of sinning, confessing and repenting the same old sins, until I was ready to give up in discouragement. I also saw myself on the inside. Sometimes I was outwardly never breaking God's Laws but in my thinking it was not a very nice place to be at all. Where was this love I was suppose to have for others. I knew deep down inside that I did not really love people like Jesus wanted me to.

What now? Reading God's Word Jesus is telling me even if I look on a woman to lust I have already committed adultery applying God's Law to my very thoughts? Ok here I lost all hope..... condemned as a sinner....... All my righteousness now was as it is plainly to be seen, filthy rags. I have finally given up all hope of trying to keep God's Law. There is finally nothing that I can do to save myself.

It was at this place for the very first time in my life I met Jesus. I could finally see that it was he who died on the cross for my sins and that I was the chiefest of sinners of whom Christ had come to save! I knew for the very first time in my life that Jesus had come into the world not to save the righteous but bring sinners to repentance. Before I was righteous (in my own eyes) but now I can see myself just how God sees me, sick with sin in need of a Savoir. The Law of God was my schoolmaster that brought me to the cross to meet Jesus for the first time. Here I was at the cross, all undone my complete dependence was no longer on what I could do, but was only on what God's Word says it would do. For the first time I had complete dependence on the Word of God to do what it says it would do and that Jesus was holding out His free gift of salvation to me all he wanted me to do was to believe His Word and it was mine. I saw for the very first time that I love Him because He first loved me.

Now I walk with him. His commandments that brought me to him are no longer his commandments. They are his promises and as I received Jesus I live in Jesus, by faith in his Word to do what it says it will do. Now I obey and follow him because I love him. He has made me free in Him and given me power to walk with him in newness of life. Now I follow the God of creation by faith and dependence on the Word only to do what it says it will do. I love Jesus and His Word. His Words are spirit and they are life! I worship Jesus everyday. I follow His Word by faith and it is he that works in my as I believe His Word. For the very first time I am free in Him, He changes me day by day as I believe His Word.

A counterfeit Gospel is out there. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation.

Why is God's Law important to helping someone to have faith in Christ alone?

Because it is only through the Law of God (10 commandments) that any of us have a knowledge of what sin is (1John 3:4; Rom 3:20; 24). If we do away with God's Law we have no knowledge of sin. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a savior. If we have no need of a savior we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost. "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Rom 2:12).

God's Law shows us that we are sinners in need of a savior. God's Law was given to us that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (Rom 3:19). It shows us that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves from this disease that we have within us so that we can by Faith lay hold of the promises of God's Words so that Jesus can save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save the righteous (those that think they do not need saving) but sinners (those that know their need of saving) (Matt 9:12-13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32) God's Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments Eccl 3:14) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ. It will be the basis of the judgement where we will all be accountable to God. (Old Covenant, Ex 20:1-17; New Covenant, Eze 36:26-27, Jer 31:33-34, Heb 8:10-12; Judgement, Heb 10:26-28, Rom 1:29-32;2:-9, 2Cor 5:10, Heb 9:27, Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31; WHY? The context of the message above is the 10 commandments shows us that we are sinners and lead us to Jesus who can save us from our sins; Gal 3:24)

The Law of God is the only way of showing us who we truly are, sinners in need of a Savior and in this condition we can see for the first time Him who loved us and washed us in His own blood and by faith only lay hold of the promises of Gods Word. (2Pet 1:4) It is here as we believe God, that he changes us from living a life of breaking God's Law to a life of walking with him. It is through the operation of God through Love because he first loved us that we follow Jesus not for salvation but because of love. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal sinful mind) but after the spirit and why Jesus says to his followers, "If you love me keep the commandments" (John 14:15).

People cannot see that this is the operation of God in the believer and assume God's people believe they are saved by their works, when in fact Jesus is saving us from our sins to walk in newness of life in fulfillment of His new Covenant promise (Heb 8:10-12)...... Gods Sheep hear His Voice salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's Law (1John 3:4) whosoever is living in sin has neither seen him nor known him (1John 3:6)

In Christ Always and good night all!

stuart lawrence said:

I have not twisted what you wrote at all. I quoted you word for word. The TC are the foundation of OC AND NC and the basis on which all will be judged

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Nope you took a small section from my testimony post and put your own interpretation on it which is not what I was saying at all (highlighted in post 228 above) Your stated "So to LGW the foundation of the NCi s not Christ but the TC. As if to make it look like I believe and make others think that I believe that we are saved by the 10 commandments. Which is not the context of when I was saying. The context of what you pulled out of my post above is that God's Law brings us to Jesus so that we can be saved by faith.

Maybe you did not mean it? It should be clear to anyone reading the post above this is not what I am saying at all.

In Christ Always!

stuart lawrence said:

In fact I will requote you word for word
Quote Gods forever law ( the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the old and the new covenants and the very foundation and basis of the true gospel of Christ. It will be the basis of the judgement where we will all be held accountable to God
Unquote

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Why is God's Law important to helping someone to have faith in Christ alone?

Because it is only through the Law of God (10 commandments) that any of us have a knowledge of what sin is (1 John 3:4; Rom 3:20; 24). If we do away with God's Law we have no knowledge of sin. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a savior. If we have no need of a savior we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost. "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Rom 2:12).

God's Law shows us that we are sinners in need of a savior. God's Law was given to us that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (Rom 3:19). It shows us that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves from this disease that we have within us so that we can by Faith lay hold of the promises of God's Words so that Jesus can save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save the righteous (those that think they do not need saving) but sinners (those that know their need of saving) (Matt 9:12-13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32) God's Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments Eccl 3:14) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ. It will be the basis of the judgement where we will all be accountable to God. (Old Covenant, Ex 20:1-17; New Covenant, Ezekiel 36:26-27, Jeremiah 31:33-34, Hebrews 8:10-12; Judgement, Hebrews 10:26-28, Romans 1:29-32;2:-9, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Hebrews 9:27, Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31; WHY? The context of the message above is the 10 commandments shows us that we are sinners and lead us to Jesus who can save us from our sins; Gal 3:24)

The Law of God is the only way of showing us who we truly are, sinners in need of a Savior and in this condition we can see for the first time Him who loved us and washed us in His own blood and by faith only lay hold of the promises of Gods Word. (2Pet 1:4) It is here as we believe God, that he changes us from living a life of breaking God's Law to a life of walking with him. It is through the operation of God through Love because he first loved us that we follow Jesus not for salvation but because of love. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal sinful mind) but after the spirit and why Jesus says to his followers, "If you love me keep the commandments" (John 14:15).

People cannot see that this is the operation of God in the believer and assume God's people believe they are saved by their works, when in fact Jesus is saving us from our sins to walk in newness of life in fulfillment of His new Covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12)...... Gods Sheep hear His Voice salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4) whosoever is living in sin has neither seen him nor known him (1 John 3:6)

Its ok let God judge between us.

stuart lawrence said:

You plainly stated the TC are the foundation of BOTH covenants. I simply quoted your words

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I stated that the 10 commandments were the foundation of the Old and New Covenant and also the Judgement to come. The context was that God's Law (10 commandments) points out sin and brings us to Christ so that we can be justified by faith. You tried to make it sound like something that was never said with your interpretation of it in post 325 when you said "So to LGW the foundation of the NC is not Christ but the TC."

stuart lawrence said:

My apologies, the repeat post was by accident

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That is ok. It would be nice if you apologized for your false interpretation of my post though but I will leave that between you and God you do not have to apologize to me and I do not judge you. I have clearly stated what I believe to you in case you were confused with what I have said and have also added my complete post from 321 in post 228 above for others to read for themselves. So I pray you do not make that mistake again in the future.

In Christ Always!