God Alone

gadar perets · Aug 19, 2017

Open Heart said:
Would have been, schmood have been. If I had been born a total babe, I'd have guys hanging all over me, but I wasn't. And it didn't come direct from the Hebrew. That's what matters. Etymologically, the English name came from the Aramaic via Greek via the Latin, and got altered once more when the J was added: hence we have Jesus. We are stuck with it as surely as we are stuck with hot dogs and apple pie. It IS the English name, there is no way around it. You can't pretend there is some other English name for him.

Why isn't "Jeshua" his English name if they both come from the same erroneous Greek transliteration?

Open Heart · Aug 19, 2017

gadar perets said:
Why isn't "Jeshua" his English name if they both come from the same erroneous Greek transliteration?

Why are you still asking this? You know the etymological progression of the word from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to Middle English, to Modern English. How do you get Jeshua from Iesous?

gadar perets · Aug 19, 2017

Open Heart said:
Why are you still asking this? You know very well the etymological progression of the word from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to Middle English, to Modern English. How do you get Jeshua from Iesous?

Sorry, I meant "Joshua", not "Jeshua". You say "Jesus" comes from "Iesous" and is English. "Joshua" comes from "Iesous", so why isn't it English?

Hebrews 4:8 For if Joshua (Iesous) had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.

What we have are two different English translators translating the same Greek word (Iesous) into two different English words (Joshua and Jesus). Why wasn't "Joshua" used throughout the NT instead of "Jesus"?

SteveCaruso · Aug 19, 2017

Aramaic point of order #1: "Jesus" is simply what comes from ישוע over 2,000 years and several languages.

ישוע /yešua(ˁ)/ in Galilean Aramaic.
This is where it started.

Ιησούς /iesūs/ in Greek
Why? Greeks could not pronounce /š/ so it became /s/. They could not pronounce /ˁ/, so it was dropped. Greek grammar requires case endings to determine parts of speech, so the /s/ was added at the end.

IESVS /iesūs/ in Latin
Why? It has the same considerations as the Greek, but the long /u/ vowel did not need a diphthong.

Iesus /iesūs/ in Middle English.
Why? It was a direct transliteration of the Latin.

Jesus /iesūs/ in Early Modern English.
Why? The letter "J" indicated initial "I" as well as was used for the final "i" in Roman Numerals as a ligature. (i.e. "viii" became "viij" for "eight").

Jesus /dʒizəs/ in Modern English.
Why? English pronunciation changed over time. "J" became to exclusively represent /dʒ/. The "e" became more constricted from /e/ to /i/. The first "s" became voiced due to its position near vowels. The /u/ due to being un-emphasized reduced to shwa /ə/.

So early Greek Christians (1st century Christians, mind) didn't pronounce his name like it was in Aramaic either.

Aramaic point of order #2: When it comes to picking about the "right" pronunciation about anything, remember that the Judean Rabbis (the "Pharisees") looked down upon Galileans because they didn't pronounce things "properly" either – even to the point of banning them from reading the Torah in synagogue for fear that they may mispronounce a word and offend God, himself (Talmud Bavli).

And yet, Christ was a Galilean. "Proper pronunciation" did not seem to matter to him.

gadar perets · Aug 19, 2017

Steve, please comment on 1 Chronicles 24:11 and 2 Chronicles 31:15. Were these texts written in Hebrew prior to any Aramaic uses of Yeshua in Scripture?

SteveCaruso · Aug 19, 2017

gadar perets said:
Steve, please comment on 1 Chronicles 24:11 and 2 Chronicles 31:15. Were these texts written in Hebrew prior to any Aramaic uses of Yeshua in Scripture?

Aye, there you're seeing a direct transliteration of the Aramaic form (which was borrowed into Hebrew after the Exile) directly into English rather than the transliteration of the Aramaic via Greek first.

If the New Testament was an Aramaic document, it's likely that's the form we'd see in English today as the "default" and we'd likely be pronouncing it /dʒɛšuə/.

gadar perets · Aug 19, 2017

SteveCaruso said:
Aye, there you're seeing a direct transliteration of the Aramaic form (which was borrowed into Hebrew after the Exile) directly into English rather than the transliteration of the Aramaic via Greek first.

If the New Testament was an Aramaic document, it's likely that's the form we'd see in English today as the "default" and we'd likely be pronouncing it /dʒɛšuə/.

How do we know the Aramaic form was not borrowed from Hebrew?

SteveCaruso · Aug 19, 2017

gadar perets said:
How do we know the Aramaic form was not borrowed from Hebrew?

Because the two languages deal with theophoric elements differently.

In Hebrew it's /y(eh)o-/ as a prefix and /-yah(u)/.

In Aramaic it's /ye-/ as a prefix and /-ya(h)/ as a suffix.

The Aramaic form does not appear in Hebrew literature until post-Exilic literature, when Aramaic had been adopted as a matter of survival.

Open Heart · Aug 19, 2017

gadar perets said:
Sorry, I meant "Joshua", not "Jeshua". You say "Jesus" comes from "Iesous" and is English. "Joshua" comes from "Iesous", so why isn't it English?

Joshua doesn't come from the Greek. THAT is the difference.

Joshua
masc. proper name, biblical successor of Moses as leader of the Israelites, from Late Latin Jeshua, Joshua, a transliteration of Hebrew Yehoshua, literally "the Lord is salvation."

CherubRam · Aug 20, 2017

In German the J is pronounced as a Y. English comes from the German language.

CherubRam · Aug 20, 2017

gadar perets said:
How do we know the Aramaic form was not borrowed from Hebrew?

Hebrew diverged from the Aramaic to become its own language long before the Babylonian captivity.

gadar perets · Aug 20, 2017

Now that this important OP has been successfully derailed, let's get back to it.

There is only one God.

Psalm 110:1 A Psalm of David. YHWH said unto my Lord (adoni), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Here we have the only true God, Yeshua's Father YHWH (John 17:3) telling His Son, who is supposedly "God", to sit on His right hand. So we have two Gods that will be sitting side by side as it were. We also see in this verse that Yeshua is not YHWH since YHWH is talking to Yeshua.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Messiah Yeshua;

Here we have the "one God" (Yeshua's Father - John 17:3), mankind, and a go between/mediator (Yeshua). If Yeshua is God, then we have two Gods; one God mediating between man and another God. We learn from this verse that the "one God" is not the mediator.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Yeshua Messiah, through whom are all things, and we through him.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Here, the Apostle Paul identifies the "one God" as "the Father" who is distinct from Yeshua. If Yeshua is also "God", then we no longer have "one God", but two.

John 20:17 Yeshua saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If Yeshua's Father is Yeshua's God and Yeshua is also "God", then we have two Gods; one God will ascend into heaven to sit at the other God's side (Psalm 110:1). Since Yeshua was talking to Mary and said his Father was Mary's "God", then Yeshua cannot also be Mary's God or else she will have two Gods.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

These words are spoken by Yeshua as he is dwelling in heaven with his Father who he identifies as his "God" and who he already identified as "the only true God" (John 17:3). If Yeshua is also "God", then we have two Gods currently living in heaven. All overcomers will have Yeshua's new name written upon them, but they will also have Yeshua's God's name written upon them. As we saw in John 20:17, Yeshua's God is the God of all believers. Believers are to have only one God.

Adstar · Aug 20, 2017

CherubRam said:
When did English originate?
History of English. The history of the English language really started with the arrival of three Germanic tribes who invaded Britain during the 5th century AD. These tribes, the Angles, the Saxons and the Jutes, crossed the North Sea from what today is Denmark and northern Germany.

Yes it started to formulate then but it did not start so silidify untill after the french invaded in 1066 and the french elites took over.. English has a huge number of French derived words..

Open Heart · Aug 20, 2017

CherubRam said:
In German the J is pronounced as a Y. English comes from the German language.

The English J is pronounced differently. At a certain point in time, this change took place.

Open Heart · Aug 20, 2017

gadar perets said:
Sorry, I meant "Joshua", not "Jeshua". You say "Jesus" comes from "Iesous" and is English. "Joshua" comes from "Iesous", so why isn't it English?

Hebrews 4:8 For if Joshua (Iesous) had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on.

The Greek transations of Yeshua/Yehoshua is Iesous. But the English name Joshua does not come from the Greek Iesous.

The exception is made in Hebrews 4:8, because we know that the verse is referring to the Prophet Joshua and not to Jesus. (I'm using English names to distinguish them.)

Open Heart · Aug 20, 2017

gadar perets said:
Now that this important OP has been successfully derailed, let's get back to it.

There is only one God.

Psalm 110:1 A Psalm of David. YHWH said unto my Lord (adoni), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Here we have the only true God, Yeshua's Father YHWH (John 17:3) telling His Son, who is supposedly "God", to sit on His right hand. So we have two Gods that will be sitting side by side as it were. No amount of mystery rhetoric will change the fact that you have two Gods if Yeshua is also God. We also see in this verse that Yeshua is not YHWH since YHWH is talking to Yeshua.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Messiah Yeshua;

Here we have the "one God" (Yeshua's Father - John 17:3), mankind, and a go between/mediator (Yeshua). If Yeshua is God, then we have two Gods; one God mediating between man and another God. Again, no amount of mystery rhetoric can change that. We learn from this verse that the "one God" is not the mediator.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Yeshua Messiah, through whom are all things, and we through him.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Here, the Apostle Paul identifies the "one God" as "the Father" who is distinct from Yeshua. If Yeshua is also "God", then we no longer have "one God", but two.

John 20:17 Yeshua saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If Yeshua's Father is Yeshua's God and Yeshua is also "God", then we have two Gods; one God will ascend into heaven to sit at the other God's side (Psalm 110:1). Since Yeshua was talking to Mary and said his Father was Mary's "God", then Yeshua cannot also be Mary's God or else she will have two Gods.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

These words are spoken by Yeshua as he is dwelling in heaven with his Father who he identifies as his "God" and who he already identified as "the only true God" (John 17:3). If Yeshua is also "God", then we have two Gods currently living in heaven. Again, no amount of mystery rhetoric can change that. All overcomers will have Yeshua's new name written upon them, but they will also have Yeshua's God's name written upon them. As we saw in John 20:17, Yeshua's God is the God of all believers. Believers are to have only one God. If we have two Gods, we are polytheists, not monotheists.

It just occurred to me, are you attempting to support a non-Trinitarian POV? If so, are you aware this position violates the SOP? Please clarify.

gadar perets · Aug 20, 2017

Open Heart said:
It just occurred to me, are you attempting to support a non-Trinitarian POV? If so, are you aware this position violates the SOP? Please clarify.

If you are referring to the MJ SOP, I see no violation. Actually, it reads, "No anti-Torah theology". The trinity is against Torah. If I'm missing something in the SOP, please provide a quote and link.

Open Heart · Aug 20, 2017

gadar perets said:
If you are referring to the MJ SOP, I see no violation. Actually, it reads, "No anti-Torah theology". The trinity is against Torah since it teaches polytheism. If I'm missing something in the SOP, please provide a quote and link.

Not the MJ SOP per se. All forums in Christian area in general are forbidden to teach anti-trinitarianism. I may not be wording it well. I'm not a mod. I can't personally tell you what to do. I'm just trying to make you aware. Calling Trinitarianism "polytheism" would be a big no no.

In all fairness, I think you should at least consider changing your faith icon to "non-Trinitarian Messianic" to avoid future confusion. Just my less than two cents worth. I assumed you were Trinitarian because you had the regular MJ icon, and gave your OP the greatest of latitude for interpretation because of that. It turns out your OP was preaching non-Trinitarianism, and I was completely mistaken about you. That shouldn't have happened.

gadar perets · Aug 20, 2017

Open Heart said:
Not the MJ SOP per se. All forums in Christian area in general are forbidden to teach anti-trinitarianism. I may not be wording it well. I'm not a mod. I can't personally tell you what to do. I'm just trying to make you aware. Calling Trinitarianism "polytheism" would be a big no no.

I removed that remark from my post and edited my post #32 after I came across the following:

It is considered blasphemy to insult or mock Christianity or any part of the Trinity-Father (God), Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. Honest debate about the nature of God and Christian Theology is allowed, but derogatory remarks are not.

In all fairness, I think you should at least consider changing your faith icon to "non-Trinitarian Messianic" to avoid future confusion. Just my less than two cents worth. I assumed you were Trinitarian because you had the regular MJ icon, and gave your OP the greatest of latitude for interpretation because of that. It turns out your OP was preaching non-Trinitarianism, and I was completely mistaken about you. That shouldn't have happened.

You knew full well I was non-trinitarian. I had that listed as my faith when I first joined the MJ Forum some 2500 posts ago. I only recently changed it to Messianic at the request of others.

Open Heart · Aug 20, 2017

gadar perets said:
You knew full well I was non-trinitarian. I had that listed as my faith when I first joined the MJ Forum some 2500 posts ago. I only recently changed it to Messianic at the request of others.

I have a hard time keeping everyone straight. I post with a gazillion people on CF and other sites. I confuse people all the time, and truth be known, the average person is someone I forget as soon as I've replied to them (you are far from average). I depend a lot on things like faith icons. Generally speaking, I remember things when they are attached to strong emotions. Like I remember things about vis because she and I have gotten into some real battles, bless her heart, and the consequences to me have been pretty severe. You are a person I am getting to know -- on my top 10 list of people I enjoy talking to and want to get to know even better (your thread on the temple really got my interest peaked). But I often forget the details about you.

I'm not trying to be abnoxious, but I'm genuinely curious: what was the rationale for changing the icon to regular messianic if you were non-trinitarian? I mean, maybe you had a really good reason, and I just don't know it.

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