Do you believe in predestination?

sdowney717

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If Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil what did the emolition of flesh and blood have to do with Jesus dying to destroy the devil? That seems like a very weak way to get rid of something so powerful if you think it was a literal devil isn't it? If your devil was a sinner from the beginning then it would mean your devil was not immortal and was a human. Eve was tempted by a snake and condemned to crawl on his belly all the days off his life. To imply otherwise is to go beyond what the scripture says. What Jesus came to destroy was those who were the false accusers the false Priests, the Pharisees and all who oppose him by teaching about demons from the dualism of a belief in more than one God. What Jesus was destroying by his death was sin and the wages of death.
So Satan does not exist as an evil personal celestial being?
Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.

So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
 
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JLB777

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Mat 24:46 — Mat 24:51
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

These 2 different servants points to preachers. The true and the false.

The true, having a full knowledge of the logos, was faithful till the end, while the false, not called by the GOD into ministry, but rather saw church ministry as a lucrative business, picked the bible to deceive many, saying in his heart that there is no GOD, that even if there is, he is not coming soon therefore was more concerned with all forms of evil atrocities, while carrying the bible because all he was interested in is his selfish desires and gains; to that one the GOD will come like a thief, not to the faithful servant, because he understands the logos.

This false is not a child of the kingdom that made a mistake. He is a tare, that is why he ended up in hell and subsequently the lake of fire. He was considered a servant at all to be compared because he stood as a preacher of the gospel, but he is a liar and a wicked servant.


In both cases the servant was made ruler over His household, to distribute the provision to His people.

In both cases the servant was His own servant.

In both cases the servant started out as faithful, and was promoted to ruler over His house.

Are you suggesting that Jesus made a servant of Satan, ruler over His people to give them provision?

Is that what you think Jesus is teaching His disciples privately?

Let me help you understand, that in both cases the servant was Jesus' servant.


But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’


His own servants that become disobedient and associate with the immoral and began to act immoral, without repenting will be cast into hell along with the hypocrites.


JLB
 
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he-man

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So Satan does not exist as an evil personal celestial being? Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” 9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has,
This ha-satan was a Son of God acting as an adversary toward Job but had no super powers and was limited by what he could do as a prosecutor. Perhaps you have not read what Job says? Job 19:21 for the HAND OF GOD has touched me...; Job 27:2 ..the Almighty vexed my soul...; Job 2:10 Shall we receive good at the HAND OF God and shall we not receive evil?;
 
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Newlyrestoredgospel777

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In both cases the servant was made ruler over His household, to distribute the provision to His people.

In both cases the servant was His own servant.

In both cases the servant started out as faithful, and was promoted to ruler over His house.

Are you suggesting that Jesus made a servant of Satan, ruler over His people to give them provision?

Is that what you think Jesus is teaching His disciples privately?

Let me help you understand, that in both cases the servant was Jesus' servant.


But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’


His own servants that become disobedient and associate with the immoral and began to act immoral, without repenting will be cast into hell along with the hypocrites.


JLB
The last paragraph answered this question. the person was considered a servant at all, because he claimed to be a preacher. So to the people, it's as though GOD called him, because he claimed so.
The verse where the GOD said that all the Father gave to Him, that He lost none, except the Son of perdition addressed it.

That son of perdition can be likened to that tare, who presented himself as a servant of GOD, only for his identity to be revealed at the coming of the Lord.
 
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JLB777

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This ha-satan was a Son of God


Yes, sons of God can indeed be cast into hell.

His own servants, His people, sons of the kingdom, who were faithful or unfaithful.

His own servants, His people, sons of the kingdom, wheat, all represent the same thing: Covenant People of God.

  • Parable of the Talents: Kingdom of Heaven describes His people not the world.

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.
Matthew 25:14

Each of these servants of the Lord, addressed Him as Lord.
  • ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.
  • ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.
  • Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed.


Parable of the servant ruler:

  • My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants
  • the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him


His people, His servants, sons of the kingdom who start out as faithful, but then become unfaithful, are cast into outer darkness with the hypocrites.


But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:12


  • His people who start out as faithful then become unfaithful is the point.
  • They start out as the one thing then become the other.

They can start out as sheep, then become lost.

Just like the angels who are sons of God, sons of the kingdom who started out as faithful, then became disobedient, and were cast down to hell.


For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4



JLB
 
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JLB777

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The last paragraph answered this question. the person was considered a servant at all, because he claimed to be a preacher. So to the people, it's as though GOD called him, because he claimed so.
The verse where the GOD said that all the Father gave to Him, that He lost none, except the Son of perdition addressed it.

That son of perdition can be likened to that tare, who presented himself as a servant of GOD, only for his identity to be revealed at the coming of the Lord.

The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. Matthew 13:38


Wheat, sons of the kingdom, His own servants, His sheep can become lost, and cast into hell.

But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:12

Now the burden is on you to prove that sons of the kingdom, good seeds, can not be cast into hell because they became unfaithful.


  • His people who start out as faithful then become unfaithful is the point.
  • They start out as the one thing then become the other.
They can start out as sheep, then become lost.
 
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roman2819

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I believe that predestination is based on God's foreknowledge and not on fatalistic determination.

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Regarding predestination: Many Christians have been so awed by the word predestination that we forgot about context. Predestination means pre-planned. In biblical context, it means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Paul or Peter were NOT talking about predestination of individuals.

For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles initially thought that redemption was intended for Jews only. After Peter received a vision about eating unclean food, they realized God was inviting the Gentiles too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition which was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in. As the old order changed, the Jews were upset, and they demanded that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews still practiced circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid this hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed him. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:

Ephesians 1:12, 13
[12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ===> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who were the first to believe in the God of Abraham, Jacob and Moses.
Speaking as a Jew, Paul used the pronoun "we" [v 12], and as he referred to Gentiles, he said "you" [v 13] -->
[13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously outside the faith, and even despised by Jews, are now included.

When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned (or pre-planned or predestined or destined) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Different translations use different words but when we know context, we will not drill into the words technically.

About the words "chosen people" or "Chosen by God": Today, we tend to interpret these terms factually, thinking that God handpick or choose Jason or Susan. However, during biblical times [2000 or more years ago], when people were much more submissive to God, they don't say that they chose to follow God; instead they said that God chose them. It is a humble way of speaking. To say that they chose God would have sounded arrogant or inappropriate to them. Today we don't speak that way anymore, and to us, such words sound like God literally choose who to save. But back then, it was really a humble way to say that it was a privilege to be part of God's people or kingdom.
 
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Albion

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Regarding predestination: Many Christians have been so awed by the word predestination that we forgot about context. Predestination means pre-planned. In biblical context, it means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Paul or Peter were NOT talking about predestination of individuals.
I've read that from others, but predestination means pre-DESTINED, not pre-planned.
 
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Albion

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That's basically true, but it doesn't either support or undercut the possibility of predestination. We have been endowed with intelligence and freewill, but the question is whether or not any of those decisions we make can affect our eternal destiny. It cannot be assumed that they will.
 
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roman2819

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Nope. Predestination is Heresy. If it were not, then Jesus wouldn't have given us instructions about how to be saved and how to have a relationship with him.

Yes , people who said God predestined individuals are misinterpreting the Scripture. Most Christians just read zoom in on one verse in Ephesians 1 and claim that God choose each one before the foundation of the earth.

However, what the Bible really mean is this:

Way back, even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would choose the Jews to be His nation and people, and later, He would also offer redemption to the Gentiles. God had pre-planned or predestine all this to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

The above is explained in 70 verses from Ephesians 1,2,3. Note how Paul used the words "BOTH people" or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" 3 times as he explained how Jesus brought the two peoples together. Note also he said "you Gentiles" which means he was not referring to individual predestination. If one take time to digest the contents and context, you will see that none of this is about single or double predestination at all.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth"? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that they were there first, and because Israel rejected Christ, then God decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles at the eleventh hour, so to speak; so the Gentiles were second class (the Jewish Christians probably said). However, the apostle said that way, way back, God had planned to reach out to Gentiles -- as early as you can think of, even before earth was made -- that is how EARLY God had predestine or preplanned.

Wanting to put the Jews and Gentiles on a level playing field, Paul spent much effort to explain that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and the same Holy Spirit from God. The Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews.

It is meaningful to read and appreciate context.

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sdowney717

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Yes , people who said God predestined individuals are misinterpreting the Scripture. Most Christians just read zoom in on one verse in Ephesians 1 and claim that God choose each one before the foundation of the earth.

However, what the Bible really mean is this:

Way back, even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would choose the Jews to be His nation and people, and later, He would also offer redemption to the Gentiles. God had pre-planned or predestine all this to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

The above is explained in 70 verses from Ephesians 1,2,3. Note how Paul used the words "BOTH people" or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" 3 times as he explained how Jesus brought the two peoples together. Note also he said "you Gentiles" which means he was not referring to individual predestination. If one take time to digest the contents and context, you will see that none of this is about single or double predestination at all.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth"? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that they were there first, and because Israel rejected Christ, then God decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles at the eleventh hour, so to speak; so the Gentiles were second class (the Jewish Christians probably said). However, the apostle said that way, way back, God had planned to reach out to Gentiles -- as early as you can think of, even before earth was made -- that is how EARLY God had predestine or preplanned.

Wanting to put the Jews and Gentiles on a level playing field, Paul spent much effort to explain that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and the same Holy Spirit from God. The Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews.

It is meaningful to read and appreciate context.

Fake, trash philosophy and sophistry of men is not the scriptures.
Predestined means preplanned to save certain named foreknown to God in love individuals and that means the exclusion of those not predestined.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

Amplified version,
29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was [k]aware and [l]loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

30 And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].

31 What then shall we say to [all] this? If God is for us, who [can be] against us? [Who can be our foe, if God is on our side?]
 
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roman2819

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I can give the correct interpretation of Roman 8:29 if you do not avoid commenting on Ephesians 1,2,3 ....

... what was Paul getting at when he said "you Gentiles", "BOTH people", "BOTH Jews and Gentiles", "into one people" and "under one head, Christ" ?

What Paul said is clear to anyone who can read, who does not deny what is presented so starkly.The only thing stopping one from seeing the simple truth, I suppose, is they cannot move away from a mistake that is so hardwired into their mind.
 
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bling

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Jlb777,
How do you suppose they were saved? The sin debt had not yet been paid.
The "sin debt" cannot be paid (what would pay for my rebellious disrespect toward the Creator of the universe), but God's Love is great enough to forgive such a huge debt.
 
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