What is the gospel message?

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Danthemailman said in post #37:

Trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ + "something else" (works) as the means of our salvation is not believing the gospel.

Initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note other passages show Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).
 
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Danthemailman

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I know of no verse that says obedience to the gospel consists of a mental acknowledge of certain historical facts and nothing more. Luke 6:46 and Christ said one is to believe, repent confess and be baptized.
Who said that obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) consists merely of mental acknowledgment of certain historical facts and nothing more? Simply believing that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" is believing in your head, but TRUSTING in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation is believing in your heart. Luke 6:46 simply says why do you call me Lord and don't do what I say? Christ never said baptized or condemned, but He did say "repent or perish/believe or condemned" (Luke 13:3; John 3:18). Repent actually precedes believe the gospel. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Water baptism follows repent/believe/confess/salvation.

1 Cor 1:17 Paul does not say baptism is not part of the gospel.
Christ sent Paul not to baptize, but to preach the gospel. There is a "distinction" between the gospel (death, burial and resurrection of Christ - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and water baptism.

In the context Paul uses the necessity of water baptism to get rid of the division where all will be "of Christ" and not "of Paul" of "of Apollos" or of any other man than Christ.
Paul is not teaching the necessity of water baptism for salvation here. Paul is calling for unity and oneness of believers. In 1 Corinthians 1:12,13 notice that it says - Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? We are to be baptized in the name of Christ or the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not in the name of someone else. Paul does not want to see "factionizing."

1 Cor 15:1-4 is the gospel and one obeys the gospel in water baptism. Belief only is not how one dies, is buried and resurrected as Christ was.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 says nothing about obeying the gospel in water baptism and neither does Romans 10:16.

Acts 15:11 Jews and Gentiles are saved in a like manner way and that was by being commanded to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.
Acts 15:8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism? hmm...

The gospel requires obedience to the will of God in order to be saved. As we've seen, one cannot obey the gospel by doing nothing.
Obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) is not doing nothing. So what is the will of God for us to receive salvation? John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Is that doing nothing or do you feel that you must do something else in order to help Christ save you?

From Romans 6, water baptism is a form of Christ's death burial and resurrection. Not only is water baptism the form of the gospel's death burial and resurrection of Christ, it is the point God has chosen to save man in removing the body of sin.
Believing in Him/Faith is the point God has chosen to save man in removing the body of sin (Acts 10:43-47; 15:8,9; 26:18). Water baptism is only a PICTURE of being buried with Him into death, not the reality. As Greek Scholar A. T. Robertson comments: "A SYMBOL IS NOT THE REALITY, BUT THE PICTURE OF THE REALITY." Similarly, baptism is called a "likeness" (Romans 6:4-6) and a "figure" (1 Peter 3:21). If an Old Testament ordinance were an "atonement," yet only typically so, how can a New Testament ordinance, which is said to "remit sin," literally do what the former ordinance could not do? IT CANNOT BE DENIED THAT CHRIST LITERALLY PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF; THEREFORE, THIS CANNOT BE PERFORMED AGAIN BY AN "OBEDIENT" ACT OF MAN. If the Old Testament ordinance were only a typical atonement, it follows that the New Testament ordinance could be no more, and must be only a typical remission.

I am no more "obessed" with water bpatism than others are with faith only, eternal security, original sin, etc. Water baptism is HOW one obeys the gospel and therefore one cannot be saved without it but it is of equal importance to believing, repenting of sins and making the great confession.
You are obsessed with water baptism. Because you refuse to place your complete trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation, you are forced to turn to supplements/salvation by works. Believing the gospel by choosing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is how one obeys the gospel and water baptism FOLLOWS. Period.

The order of events for the Romans in being justified, Rom 6:17-18
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed form the heart that form of doctrine (obeyed the gospel)

By being water baptized they did purify their souls in obeying the gospel/truth. It all fits together so perfectly. 3) then freed from sin/justified.
Actually, your argument does not fit together at all. Water baptism is not a part of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and it's not mentioned in Romans 1:16; 6:17,18 or 10:16. Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). God pours his new children into the mold of divine truth. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." *Now this all fits together so perfectly.

One believes NOT "believes only". Paul in that context made confession of equal importance in being saved. In other contexts, Paul made repentance and baptism essential to salvation.
It's not believes only "in that sense." We believe only in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and not in works. Those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe the gospel. Also, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

In the context Paul is showing the Jewish converts in Rome that the OT law cannot justify. The OT law required the work of flawless law keeping to be justified and Paul is eliminating that work. Abraham was NOT justified by the work of flawless law keeping but by obedient works in doing what God told him to do in moving and offering Issac Hebrews 11:8,17. Therefore Rom 4:5 cannot eliminate all works for Abraham DID DO WORKS and was justified by those works.
You cannot dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40) so your "saved by these works and just not those works" argument is bogus. Abraham was justified "shown to be righteous" by his works (James 2:21) and not accounted as righteous by his works. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness."

I can see that you remain thoroughly indoctrinated into Campbellism and unreachable, so I see not point in continuing to waste my time beating a dead horse, but I will continue to pray for you. :praying:
 
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Danthemailman

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Initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note other passages show Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).
You are just as confused as the Seabass. :rolleyes: Moving on.
 
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Who said that obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16) consists merely of mental acknowledgment of certain historical facts and nothing more? Simply believing that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" is believing in your head, but TRUSTING in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation is believing in your heart. Luke 6:46 simply says why do you call me Lord and don't do what I say? Christ never said baptized or condemned, but He did say "repent or perish/believe or condemned" (Luke 13:3; John 3:18). Repent actually precedes believe the gospel. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Water baptism follows repent/believe/confess/salvation.

I remember you now from another forum. You were the one trying to create a biblical impossibility in having one repent BEFORE he even believes. IN Romans 10:14, believing is impossible before one can hear yet you have men repenting before they even believe. And if I recall correctly I asked multiple times how/why would an atheist repent BEFORE he even believes, before he even believes in God Christ, heaven, hell. etc and you never answered.
You whole argument here is based upon a biblical, logical impossibility.

The way you are using the word "trusting" you are making trusting no different than belief only.

You are rearranging the order of all the verses that put belief and repentance BEFORE baptism as Mk 16:16 or Acts 2:38. I do now also remember you do like to rewrite verse to change the order of them around.

damthemailman said:
Christ sent Paul not to baptize, but to preach the gospel. There is a "distinction" between the gospel (death, burial and resurrection of Christ - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and water baptism.

Paul is not teaching the necessity of water baptism for salvation here. Paul is calling for unity and oneness of believers. In 1 Corinthians 1:12,13 notice that it says - Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? We are to be baptized in the name of Christ or the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not in the name of someone else. Paul does not want to see "factionizing."



For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1 Corinthians 1:17, as been explained numerous times to you, is using figurative of speech called a "not-but" elliptical statement where one thing is given more emphasis over another but not to the total exclusion of either. In 1 Peter 3:3-4 Peter said "Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price." Peter was NOT LITERALLY telling wives to 'NOT...put on apparel' but was putting more emphasis on the inward adorning over the outward adorning but not to the totally exclusion of the outward adorning.


In Paul's case in 1 Cor 1:17,Paul was given more emphasis on preaching than baptizing but not to the total exclusion of baptism for Paul did baptized 1 Corinthians 1:14-16. Paul was under the great commission (Matthew 28:19-20) to go, teach and baptize. 1 Cor 1:17 does not contradict or nullify the great commission for Paul.



Again, to heal the division in Corinth where some were "OF" Paul or "OF" Apollos" or "OF" Cephas, Paul uses the necessity of Christ's death and baptism for them to be all "OF" Christ.

1 Cor 1:13 "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

Paul asks this rhetorical question in the negative. Stated in the positive Paul is saying "Christ is not divided! Christ was crucified for you, you were baptized in the name of Christ"

Paul creates TWO necessities for one to be "of Christ":
1) Christ crucified for you
2) you were baptized in the name of Christ

Was Christ crucified for you? Yes, Hebrews 2:9 says Christ was crucified, tasted death, for every man. So why then will every man NOT be saved? For every man will not be baptized in the name of Christ. The phrase "in the name of" carries a legal connotation to it for it shows possession. Those baptized in the name of Christ are then in Christ's possession. Baptism in the name of Christ is the same baptism of Acts 2:28; Acts 10:47-48, the baptism where one obeys the gospel when the old man of sins dies, is buired in a watery grave and risen from that watery grave to walk in newness of life.


dnthemailman said:
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 says nothing about obeying the gospel in water baptism and neither does Romans 10:16.

I did not say that 1 Cor 15:1-4 says anything about baptism. What 1 Cor 15:1-4 tells me that the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ and when one is water baptized his old man of sins dies, buried in a watery grace and risen form that watery grace. Therefore one has NOT obeyed the gospel until one has been water baptized. The language of Acts 2:41 implies one is rejecting the gospel until he has been baptized...those that gladly received the gospel message as preached by Peter were baptized. The ones that rejected the gospel message was the ones that were not baptized.

danthemailman said:
Acts 15:8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism? hmm...

Obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) is not doing nothing. So what is the will of God for us to receive salvation? John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Is that doing nothing or do you feel that you must do something else in order to help Christ save you?

Acts 15* says "purifying their heart by faith and does NOT say their hearts were purified by faith only.

1) NT faith INCLUDES baptism:
Eph 2:8----faith>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21---baptism>>>>>>>>saves
Only one way to be saved therefore faith mut include baptism

2) Peter said 'Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth..."

1 Pet 3:21 Purified souls, how? by obeying the truth
Acts 15:8 Purified hearts, how? by faith

So faith IS obeying the truth, obeying the gospel in submitting to water baptism.

It all fits together so beautifully and perfectly yet we see how the man made idea of faith only creates a host of biblical contradictions and inconsistencies and logical fallacies.



danthemailman said:
Believing in Him/Faith is the point God has chosen to save man in removing the body of sin (Acts 10:43-47; 15:8,9; 26:18). Water baptism is only a PICTURE of being buried with Him into death, not the reality. As Greek Scholar A. T. Robertson comments: "A SYMBOL IS NOT THE REALITY, BUT THE PICTURE OF THE REALITY." Similarly, baptism is called a "likeness" (Romans 6:4-6) and a "figure" (1 Peter 3:21). If an Old Testament ordinance were an "atonement," yet only typically so, how can a New Testament ordinance, which is said to "remit sin," literally do what the former ordinance could not do? IT CANNOT BE DENIED THAT CHRIST LITERALLY PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF; THEREFORE, THIS CANNOT BE PERFORMED AGAIN BY AN "OBEDIENT" ACT OF MAN. If the Old Testament ordinance were only a typical atonement, it follows that the New Testament ordinance could be no more, and must be only a typical remission.

From Romans 6:17-18 those Romans obeyed the heart that form of doctrine then made free form sin.

That "form of doctrine" they obeyed was not faith onlyism.

The context in Rom 6 shows:
For he that is dead is>>>>>>>>>> freed from sin, (verse 7)
obeyed that form of doctrine>>>>>>freed from sin (verses 17-18)

One must be "dead" to be freed from sin therefore what one obeys must make him 'dead' to in order to be freed from sin. And the context Rom 6:3-5 shows that one becomes "dead" when he is water baptized, the old man of sins dies and is buried in a watery grave to then rise to walk in newness of life. Hence that form of doctrine that must be obeyed for one to be 'dead' and 'freed from sin' is water baptism which is a form of Christ's death burial and resurrection. And it is in this "form of doctrine" (water baptism) where one is "freed from sin" where God takes away the body of sin Col 2:11-12, where sins are remitted Acts 2:38.

Again, it all fit together so beautifully and faith onlyism butchers it all to pieces.



danthemailman said:
You are obsessed with water baptism. Because you refuse to place your complete trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation, you are forced to turn to supplements/salvation by works. Believing the gospel by choosing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is how one obeys the gospel and water baptism FOLLOWS. Period.

I have put my trust in Christ by being water baptized, I obeyed that form of doctrine, I obeyed the gospel and freed from sin. Hose NOT water baptized do not trust Christ for they think they have a better way to be saved than what Christ said.

You post "Believing the gospel by choosing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection..."
No verse says that "belief only/trusting" is obeying the form of doctrine (obeying the gospel) in dying, in being buried and resurrected. You way is not better than Christ's way.

danthemailman said:
Actually, your argument does not fit together at all. Water baptism is not a part of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and it's not mentioned in Romans 1:16; 6:17,18 or 10:16. Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). God pours his new children into the mold of divine truth. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." *Now this all fits together so perfectly.

It's not believes only "in that sense." We believe only in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation and not in works. Those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe the gospel. Also, confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). Your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics.

You cannot dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40) so your "saved by these works and just not those works" argument is bogus. Abraham was justified "shown to be righteous" by his works (James 2:21) and not accounted as righteous by his works. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness."

You post "Water baptism is not a part of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)..."

1) the gospel is the (1)death (2)burial and (3)resurrection of Christ per 1 Cor 15:4
2) water baptism is where one (1)dies, is (2) buried and (3) resurrected per Romans 6:3-5

Therefore water baptism is an EXACT FORM of the gospel. So it is TOTALLY illogical and unbiblical to argue one has nothing to do with the other...please take away your 'faith only' butcher knife from bible verses.

damthemailman said:
I can see that you remain thoroughly indoctrinated into Campbellism and unreachable, so I see not point in continuing to waste my time beating a dead horse, but I will continue to pray for you. :praying:

I get my doctrine from Christ who said to be baptized.

So far we see you have:

1) created biblical impossiblities in getting an atheist to repent BEFORE he even believes
2) you rewrite verses to purposely change them to fit your theological opinion
3) claimed your way in how one should be saved is better than Christ's way

Same ole same ole as from the other forum.
 
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Danthemailman

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I remember you now from another forum. You were the one trying to create a biblical impossibility in having one repent BEFORE he even believes.
The reason why you cannot grasp the fact that repent precedes saving faith in Christ is because you seem to believe that "all" belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot grasp this DEEPER faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works" for salvation. I did my best on Christian Chat to set you straight (prior to you getting banned for perverting the gospel) but you still stubbornly refuse to accept the truth. :disappointed:

Here is a recap of your arguments being refuted - What happens when Believers don't obey the Gospel - Page 4 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

IN Romans 10:14, believing is impossible before one can hear yet you have men repenting before they even believe. And if I recall correctly I asked multiple times how/why would an atheist repent BEFORE he even believes, before he even believes in God Christ, heaven, hell. etc and you never answered. You whole argument here is based upon a biblical, logical impossibility.
Believing what? We must first believe in the existence of Christ before we can repent "change our mind" and believe the gospel. That's when we go from trusting in works to trusting in Christ alone for salvation.

An atheist must first repent "change their mind" before they can believe in the existence of God, but simply changing your mind about the existence of God and believing in the existence of Christ does not save (James 2:19). We must also believe/trust in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation in order to be saved (Acts 16:31). That is repentance unto life (Acts 11:17,18). I see that you are still just as confused as you were when you posted on Christian Chat. Sadly, nothing has changed, as you are unable to see anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination. :pensive:

The way you are using the word "trusting" you are making trusting no different than belief only.
Not at all. You are unable to understand the difference because you remain spiritually discerned. Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth, but you must be willing to accept the truth.
 
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Danthemailman said in post #42:

Abraham was justified "shown to be righteous" by his works (James 2:21) and not accounted as righteous by his works. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness."

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Note that the issue in James 2:14-24 is how Christians are to be saved (James 2:14b), how they're to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved, how they're to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16). That's why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23). Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That's why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) doesn't include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible don't include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2) doesn't mean Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.
 
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The reason why you cannot grasp the fact that repent precedes saving faith in Christ is because you seem to believe that "all" belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot grasp this DEEPER faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works" for salvation. I did my best on Christian Chat to set you straight (prior to you getting banned for perverting the gospel) but you still stubbornly refuse to accept the truth. :disappointed:

Here is a recap of your arguments being refuted - What happens when Believers don't obey the Gospel - Page 4 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

Believing what? We must first believe in the existence of Christ before we can repent "change our mind" and believe the gospel. That's when we go from trusting in works to trusting in Christ alone for salvation.

An atheist must first repent "change their mind" before they can believe in the existence of God, but simply changing your mind about the existence of God and believing in the existence of Christ does not save (James 2:19). We must also believe/trust in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation in order to be saved (Acts 16:31). That is repentance unto life (Acts 11:17,18). I see that you are still just as confused as you were when you posted on Christian Chat. Sadly, nothing has changed, as you are unable to see anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination. :pensive:

Not at all. You are unable to understand the difference because you remain spiritually discerned. Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth, but you must be willing to accept the truth.


The Gospel is the news that the promise, to be healed by the stripes of the Lamb of God, so that mankind could be a blessing to Creation, was finally fulfilled in the Cross. The description of how that blessing is received is labelled, Salvation.


Salvation

There are two things we must understand before we can understand the teachings about salvation:


  1. Old Testament salvation is the same as New Testament salvation, only inferior, an earthly type of a future spiritual reality.

  2. Warnings about works are warnings about becoming false Israel.

  1. Old Testament salvation is the same as New Testament salvation, only, as are all its features, inferior.
The New Covenant is a superior covenant. For example, the blood of the Lamb of God is better than the blood of bulls and goats, as the last could not permanently take away sin, which the first could. Because Old Testament salvation is the same as New Testament salvation in type (but not, as we've seen, in quality, ie one is an earthly example whilst the other is spiritual), we can check if our ideas about salvation are confirmed in the stories of the Old Testament.


Did the OT believers die, became buried with God and were they raised as new persons, a type of baptism? Well, Abraham left his father's house and followed God. Israel left a visible, natural, real, source of support, Egypt, and followed God, an invisible, supernatural, spiritual source of life. They both died, figuratively, when they left a known source of life, and followed God, who resurrected them to a life of depending on Him.


Were OT believers fed with bread from heaven which could increase their faith in God, fed after baptism (leaving worldy stores to follow Godly resources)?


Abraham was fed from the Rock too, and the Rock was the same Christ, bread from heaven, which could increase faith in God, because God trained him, put him in dangerous situations, and then rescued him.


Scripture says Israel was fed from the Rock and the Rock was Christ, bread from heaven, which could increase faith in God, because God trained israel, put her in dangerous situations, and then rescued her.


In other words, bread from heaven came to those who left a known source of life, slavery though it was, and followed God, a type of baptism. It didn't come on everyone, this bread of life. We know that those who tried to follow God, but did not leave the world, perished, like Lot and the Egyptians, who do not figure in the narrative after they were swept away.


Recap
  1. God does not justify those who do not leave their old masters (who fed them) to follow Him. Lot, The Egyptians.

  2. God justifies those who follow Him (are believers, believe in Him). Abraham, Israel.

  3. Those God justifies He feeds bread from heaven, water from the Rock, trains them in His dependability. They are resurrected to a new life.

  4. Some reject the new life and want to go back to the old life, because the price is too high. Israel, Moses.

  5. Those who understood the teachings, were cleansed by the words form the mouth of god, water from the Rock, pay the price, enter His rest. Abraham, Joshua, Caleb.


II. Warnings about works are warnings about becoming false Israel.

God promised Abraham that his seed would have the privilege of being a blessing to the world. Israel claimed that God's word could not fail. If the blessing of the Gospel (to finally be a blessing to the world by demonstrating that following Christ led to being resurrected to a new life) was to be received, a person needed to become a Jew.


Paul explained that to become a blessing to the world, a believer should not do works (become a Jew) but by becoming a spiritual child of Abraham. He reminded them: not all Israel was Israel, but only those who left a known source of life to follow God. Similarly, not all children of Abraham were his spiritual children, only those who did not try to bless themselves like Abraham did with Hagar, but followed God for blessings, like Abraham did with Sarah. People who followed the Old Covenant, who could boast of circumcision, sacrifice, were like the personification of Abraham's efforts with Hagar, whilst people who followed the New Covenant, who could boast of nothing of their own, but only Christ and God’s promise of salvation, were like the personification of Abraham's efforts with Sarah.


Recap
  1. The Jews argued God's word could not fail, the promise was to Araham's children, Jews.

  2. To become a blessing to the world, believers had to become Jews.

  3. Paul argued: Not all Abraham's children were his children, for the purpose of the blessing, as Ishmael was not included.

  4. Abraham's children were the not the results of depending on a natural source of life, the naturally endowed Hagar, but on a supernatural source of life, the God promised healed womb of Sarah.

Paul's teaching was that to depend on the Old Covenant, Judaism, was like depending on Egypt for life, and the blessings of the New Covenant, Christianity, depending on God for life, would be of no benefit to those who insisted on works, Judaism.


Summary


Works of Faith


Salvation is perfected by drinking from the Rock, which was accessible by leaving the natural and following the supernatural, a type of baptism. That’s why Paul asked the believers if they had received the Holy Spirit, the unlocking of Holy Scripture, the guidance of the Word of God, Bread from heaven:

Acts 19:1-7
1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7There were in all about twelve men.


You will not benefit from salvation if you do not agree with the teachings from God:

1 Corinthians 10:1-5
1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.


Agreement with the teachings from God is acknowledged by action, works:


James 2:21
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?


If you do not act, work, God will not know:


Genesis 22:12
12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”13Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son. 14Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, “In the mount of the LORD it will be provided.”

15Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,16and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18“In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Numbers 14:24
24"But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.


Works of the Law


Paul taught against the wrong notion of the children of Abraham being identified as those who possessed the Law.

The children of Abraham are identified by their doing those actions that demonstrated loyalty to God.

Number 14:1-10
1Then all the congregation lifted up their voices and cried, and the people wept that night. 2All the sons of Israel grumbled against Moses and Aaron; and the whole congregation said to them, “Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness! 3“Why is the LORD bringing us into this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become plunder; would it not be better for us to return to Egypt?” 4So they said to one another, “Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt.”

5Then Moses and Aaron fell on their faces in the presence of all the assembly of the congregation of the sons of Israel. 6Joshua the son of Nun and Caleb the son of Jephunneh, of those who had spied out the land, tore their clothes; 7and they spoke to all the congregation of the sons of Israel, saying, “The land which we passed through to spy out is an exceedingly good land. 8“If the LORD is pleased with us, then He will bring us into this land and give it to us—a land which flows with milk and honey. 9“Only do not rebel against the LORD; and do not fear the people of the land, for they will be our prey. Their protection has been removed from them, and the LORDis with us; do not fear them.” 10But all the congregation said to stone them with stones. Then the glory of the LORD appeared in the tent of meeting to all the sons of Israel.
 
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James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works," shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works, many years after his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words and works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

Note that the issue in James 2:14-24 is how Christians are to be saved (James 2:14b), how they're to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved, how they're to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16).
False. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

That's why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23).
I already explained why.

Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).
Initial salvation/final salvation? You are completely mixed up. We "have been" saved through faith from the penalty of sin--justification (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1) "past tense with ongoing present results." We will be saved from the presence of sin--glorification (Romans 8:30). We are not merely "initially" saved through faith then ultimately saved by works. From beginning--"have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end--"receiving the end of your faith-the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works. Now in regards to these passages of scripture that you misinterpret to teach salvation by works:

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. People who teach salvation by works confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Sound familiar? Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

In Philippians 2:12, notice that Paul said "work out" your salvation and not work for your salvation. Paul is not teaching salvation by works here, but is referring to active pursuit in the process of ongoing sanctification. Works salvationists often confuse justification with ongoing sanctification.

In 2 Corinthians 5:9, we read that believers make it their ambition to be pleasing to the Lord. Nothing there about salvation by works and perverting the gospel is not pleasing to the Lord.

So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost?

I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected. bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). Make sure that you are saved. To practice these qualities gives evidence of and assurance of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Cause of being in Christ (FAITH) effect of being in Christ (FRUIT).

For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (vs. 8). For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins (vs. 9). What is the object of the forgetting? Is this forgetting temporary because this believer had fallen into error or does this lack of fruit exist because this person’s "cleansing" was merely an external reformation that did not come from a truly changed heart? The genuineness of their profession will be demonstrated as they express these virtues. These fruits confirm their divine source. Romans 8:30 says, And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. All of them.

In Hebrews 6:10-12, full assurance of hope is descriptive of a genuine believer. Just as we read in Hebrews 3:14, For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The only ones in the end who will be identified as those who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end." These faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? The wording of the above verse in Hebrews is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, if in the future you hold fast to Christ." Holding fast to Christ is a manifestation of genuine belief and having become partakers of Christ and departing from God is a manifestation of unbelief and failure to have become partakers of Christ.

In Philippians 3:11-14, Paul is neither teaching salvation by works or sinless perfection. There is also a difference between relative perfection and absolute perfection. Paul emphasizes the need for progress in Christian living. Paul is still involved in the struggles of life in a fallen world and strives to be perfect/mature. Paul denies that he has reached a spiritual impasse of non-development. Paul has made great progress, but the goal is still before him, not behind him. Salvation is a gift that we receive through faith and is not a prize that we work for and earn, yet there is fullness of blessings and rewards in the age to come. Just like in the Olympics, some will receive various medals (gold, silver, bronze) and some will receive no medals, but they were all still in the Olympics. *Don't forget to read Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

In regards to the will of the Father and living forever in 1 John 2:17, we see what the will of the Father is in regards to receiving eternal life in John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished or that we are saved by works that are produced "out of" faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" faith. Works-salvationists try to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith and end up making no distinction between faith and works that follow as a result of faith.

In regards to Galatians 5:6, true faith is living and active and works through love. Nothing there about salvation by works.

In regards to Titus 3:8, "careful to maintain good works/these things are good and profitable to men" is not saying we are saved by works. We are saved FOR (not by) good works (Ephesians 2:10).

You mentioned, "not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law" as if good works in general are excluded from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40). I often hear this bogus argument from works salvationists who try to teach that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That's why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) doesn't include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible don't include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2) doesn't mean Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in faith is the source of the works. Works salvationists get this backwards and put the cart before the horse.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. Faith is not without repentance (Acts 20:21). The Bible nowhere says "lose salvation."

If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These workss done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

In regards to Matthew 25:26-30, the talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability (vs. 15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called wicked and slothful and an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness, certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as a cruel and ruthless opportunist, "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This slothful so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a servant does not mean necessarily that he is saved. The Jews are called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved (Isaiah 43:10).

In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then stopped bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? "the body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13). John 7:38-39 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, (like Judas Iscariot) and the vital which bears fruit - like the remaining 11 disciples). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity.

Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the fruitless branches are identified as not belonging to the vine and are cut off, like Judas Iscariot, who was not a genuine believer, but was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).
 
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Danthemailman said in post #48:

Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

God grants initial salvation by faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born apart from their works. But just as an infant after it's born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if it's to remain alive, so a new Christian after he's born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know they're actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know they're actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person can't become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there's no assurance children will reach adulthood, so there's no assurance initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they're to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Danthemailman said in post #48:

Initial salvation/final salvation?

Yes.

Also, note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note other passages show Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law) if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they're to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there's no assurance Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30) and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the 3rd day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).
 
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Danthemailman said in post #48:

Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved . . .

Note that while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He doesn't take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

Danthemailman said in post #48:

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Note that Matthew 25:26,30 shows that even someone who was a servant of Jesus Christ (that is, a Christian) can ultimately lose his salvation because of unrepentant laziness.

One way a Christian could desire to become lazy without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12). Love for God means choosing to do what God says to do (1 John 5:3). So if one's love for God grows cold (Matthew 24:12), one will no longer choose to do what God says to do (John 14:24), meaning one will become lazy in God's eyes (Matthew 25:26,30).

Danthemailman said in post #48:

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE.

Matthew 7:21-23 shows both faith and obedience to God are required for Christians to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). But there's no assurance Christians will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole, like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole. For Matthew 7:22 could refer to Christians, believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance they'd fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so they had to be rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that's one of the signs people are Christians, believers in the Gospel (Mark 16:17). People must be careful not to fall into the unforgivable presumption of Mark 3:22-30.
 
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Danthemailman said in post #48:

People who teach salvation by works confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture.

Note that initial salvation by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5) doesn't automatically produce good works. That's why Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and why it's possible for Christians to wrongly employ their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).
Danthemailman said in post #48:

The only ones in the end who will be identified as those who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end.

Note that Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring Christians are robots. For if Christians can't choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring a Christian can have no present assurance he's truly saved. For if a Christian who doesn't persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance he's truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road he could fail to persevere and so end up showing he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know he's presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) if after he became a Christian he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure as a saved person he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a Christian fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin 70-times-7 times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
 
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Danthemailman said in post #48:

Holding fast to Christ is a manifestation of genuine belief and having become partakers of Christ and departing from God is a manifestation of unbelief and failure to have become partakers of Christ.

Note Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that even Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other scriptures show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they're no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8) and worshipping the Antichrist and his image and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if they had been Christians before, will end up suffering punishment in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life if he doesn't overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).
 
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The reason why you cannot grasp the fact that repent precedes saving faith in Christ is because you seem to believe that "all" belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot grasp this DEEPER faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works" for salvation. I did my best on Christian Chat to set you straight (prior to you getting banned for perverting the gospel) but you still stubbornly refuse to accept the truth. :disappointed:

Here is a recap of your arguments being refuted - What happens when Believers don't obey the Gospel - Page 4 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

Believing what? We must first believe in the existence of Christ before we can repent "change our mind" and believe the gospel. That's when we go from trusting in works to trusting in Christ alone for salvation.

An atheist must first repent "change their mind" before they can believe in the existence of God, but simply changing your mind about the existence of God and believing in the existence of Christ does not save (James 2:19). We must also believe/trust in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation in order to be saved (Acts 16:31). That is repentance unto life (Acts 11:17,18). I see that you are still just as confused as you were when you posted on Christian Chat. Sadly, nothing has changed, as you are unable to see anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination. :pensive:

Not at all. You are unable to understand the difference because you remain spiritually discerned. Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth, but you must be willing to accept the truth.
Earlier you posted one must repent before he believes, now above you say one must believe before he repents.

As far as Christian Chat, what a joke. I got banned from that website and the reason given:

You have been banned for the following reason:
Baptism necessary for salvation agenda/false teaching


Date the ban will be lifted: Indefinite

I, just moments ago, went back to that website and tried to log in and above (in blue) is a copy and paste from a window that still appears. The 'powers that be' there and their ally posters could not defend their faith onlyism nor refute the bible's truth on the necessity of water baptism in being saved, so they put a ban on. Very weak and pathetic...banning people instead of allowing discourse and debate. Again, banning me was very telling of their inability to prove their position or refute the bible's truth so they just kick people off to silence them.

So I cannot access the link in your post. If you are still a poster there, ask them why they kicked me off, for no valid reason, instead of allowing for discourse and debate which is a reason why that forum suppose to exist.
 
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Earlier you posted one must repent before he believes, now above you say one must believe before he repents.
One must repent before he believes "the gospel" in order to become saved.

One must first believe in the existence of Jesus Christ before one can repent and believe "the gospel" in order to become saved.

Merely believing that Jesus Christ "exists" is not believing the gospel. So no contradiction on my part. Those who don't believe in the existence of Jesus Christ would not even consider believing the gospel.

As I stated earlier, the reason why you cannot grasp the fact that repent precedes saving faith in Christ/believe the gospel is because you seem to believe that "all" belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot grasp this DEEPER faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works" for salvation. You just don't get it. The natural man is spiritually discerned.

As far as Christian Chat, what a joke. I got banned from that website and the reason given:

You have been banned for the following reason:
Baptism necessary for salvation agenda/false teaching


Date the ban will be lifted: Indefinite
"Banned for baptism necessary for salvation agenda/false teaching" = perverting the gospel.

Perverting the gospel is not a joke and has grave consequences. :(

I just moments ago went back to that website and tried to log in and above (in blue) is a copy and paste from a window that still appears. They could not defend their faith onlyism nor refute the bible's truth on the necessity of water baptism in being saved, so they put a ban on. Very weak and pathetic...banning people instead of allowing discourse and debate. Again, banning me was very telling of their inability to prove their position or refute the bible's truth so they just kick people off.
Many people (including myself) have refuted your watered down gospel and have defended the truth that salvation is by grace through faith, not works, on Christian Chat, but works salvationists refuse to accept the truth. "They could not defend...or refute..." is just your biased opinion and wishful thinking.
 
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One must repent before he believes "the gospel" in order to become saved.

One must first believe in the existence of Jesus Christ before one can repent and believe "the gospel" in order to become saved.

One must believe Christ's words before they can repent....."the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." People believed Jesus existed but did not believe the words He said.

danthemailman said:
Merely believing that Jesus Christ "exists" is not believing the gospel. So no contradiction on my part. Those who don't believe in the existence of Jesus Christ would not even consider believing the gospel.

One's unbelief is demonstrated/proven by them NOT DOING what Christ said one must do to be saved in repenting, confession and submitting to baptism.

danthemailman said:
As I stated earlier, the reason why you cannot grasp the fact that repent precedes saving faith in Christ/believe the gospel is because you seem to believe that "all" belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot grasp this DEEPER faith which trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation. This also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works" for salvation. You just don't get it. The natural man is spiritually discerned.

The kind of belief in the NT that saves is always the same belief which includes repentance confession and baptism. You have consistenly failed to provide a logical, biblical reason as to why water baptism is not essential to being saved.


danthemailman said:
"Banned for baptism necessary for salvation agenda/false teaching" = perverting the gospel.

Perverting the gospel is not a joke and has grave consequences. :(

Many people (including myself) have refuted your watered down gospel and have defended the truth that salvation is by grace through faith, not works, on Christian Chat, but works salvationists refuse to accept the truth. "They could not defend...or refute...is just your biased opinion and wishful thinking.

There was/is all kinds of doctrinal errors being posted on that forum. There are kinds of contradictory theologies from Mormonism to Calvinism to Catholicism and just about any kind of "ism" a person can think of, yet I was singled out and banned for no valid reason. I do not recall that posting about the essentiality of water baptism being against the forum rules. The did not defend their faith onlyism nor refute the bible's truth on water baptism is EVIDENCED BY THE FACT I got banned with a very lame of reason. I remember one poster (forgot his forum nickname) when he discovered he could not refute the truth of the bible as it was presented to him, he began personal attacks. I would say about 90% of his posts to me were just personal attacks, name calling etc which were against forums rules. But I am sure he is still there posting away.

You posted
Many people (including myself) have refuted your watered down gospel and have defended the truth that salvation is by grace through faith, not works,

This proves my point in your inability to provide a logical, biblical reason against the necessity of water baptism in being saved.

In Ephesians 2:8-10 the phrase "not of works" refers to works of merit one does to earn salvation whereby he could boast of those works. The faith onlylist creates a whole host of logical biblically contradictions by trying to claim "not of works" eliminates ALL works from being saved.

--Faith/believing is a work, so not of works cannot eliminate the work of faith.
--Paul would contradict himself where twice just in this one chapter he put obedient works BEFORE salvation
--it contradicts all the verse where Christ said men are to 'DO' to be saved Luke 6:46; Matthew 7:21-26; John 3:21; John 6:27; John 9:31; Luke 13:24; etc
--the arguments against obedient works in doing God's will is based upon the faulty idea that if one does any work he is trying to earn salvation. Ye this false notion rejects the every day fact free gifts (as salvation) comes with conditions and meeting the conditions do not/cannot earn the free gift that has already been offered.

One must obey the gospel to be saved (2 Thessalonians 1:8) and the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4) and water baptism is a form of the gospel's death burial and resurrection (Romans 6) therefore is HOW one obeys the gospel. Faith only is NOT that form of doctrine where one obeys the gospel in dying, being buried and resurrected for faith only is dead, it's nothing.
 
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In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous.



Wrong, “justified” means “found righteous”.


James 2:21

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?


James 2:21 V-AIP-3S

GRK: ἐξ ἔργων ἐδικαιώθη ἀνενέγκας Ἰσαὰκ

NAS: our father justified by works

KJV: our father justified by works,

INT: by works was justified having offered Isaac



dikaioó: to show to be righteous, declare righteous

Original Word: δικαιόω

Part of Speech: Verb

Transliteration: dikaioó

Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yo'-o)

Short Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, justify

Definition: I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.




The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works," shown to be righteous.


In James 2:22, faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works, many years after his faith was accounted to him for righteousness. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.


In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.


In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.


In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:


1. to render righteous or such he ought to be

2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be


In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words and works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.


Wrong. Salvation is contingent on loyalty. Loyalty fades and increases, which is natural. The final judgment is based on the quality of the loyalty, faith. If a person is found to have deep rooted loyalty, he will be saved. If loyalty does not have strong roots, the person will fall away and be condemned.


Matthew 13:

18“Hear then the parable of the sower. 19“When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.20“The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22“And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23“And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”




God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".


Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."


So? No one claimed that God’s observation made Abraham righteous.



False. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.


Wrong. There’s no such thing as false faith, false loyalty. There's only weak loyalty and strong loyalty. Weak loyalty doesn't save. Abraham believed God, but it only started him off on the walk of faith. The Jews in Rome were arguing for works, circumcision to kick off that walk. Someone who starts off supporting your election bid and then falls away is not going to get any favours. Probably setting himself up for some extra lumps and knocks instead.


The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous.


Wrong. It wasn't a judicial act, but an accounting one. Abraham’s loyal act was actually recognised as righteousness and an amount of righteousness was credited to him.


Romans 4:2-3

2If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”


James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.


Wrong. James uses justified to describe the observation by anybody that a person was confirmed to have a strong faith, a faith that can save, a faith that has works.


James 2

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.




Man is saved through faith and not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).


Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*


Wrong. Man is started off on the walk of faith by words and successfully finishes (completes, perfects) that walk with action.


I already explained why.


Wrongly.


Initial salvation/final salvation? You are completely mixed up. We "have been" saved through faith from the penalty of sin--justification (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 5:1) "past tense with ongoing present results." We will be saved from the presence of sin--glorification (Romans 8:30). We are not merely "initially" saved through faith then ultimately saved by works. From beginning--"have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end--"receiving the end of your faith-the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works.


If someone supports your forming of a group to prohibit lifestyle narcotic use and then refuses to give up that use he is no longer acceptable, justified. Why should it be different in the kingdom?


Now in regards to these passages of scripture that you misinterpret to teach salvation by works:


If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.


If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.


In the end, the people who do not continue will be condemned. You may blame it on a false faith, what I call a weak faith, but that faith did not save. Both your false faith and my weak faith failed to save because of lack of good acts, so in summation, salvation is contingent on works.


Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. People who teach salvation by works confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture.


Again, in summation, salvation is contingent on works and continuance in them.


Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.


These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Sound familiar? Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.


Except that in The Ancient Near East, belief, pistis, meant loyalty. The fault of the transgressors in Matthew 7:22 was in not gathering those in Egypt out from there and bringing them into rest. They were teaching the health and wealth Gospel.


In Philippians 2:12, notice that Paul said "work out" your salvation and not work for your salvation. Paul is not teaching salvation by works here, but is referring to active pursuit in the process of ongoing sanctification. Works salvationists often confuse justification with ongoing sanctification.


Wrong, “work out” is the same as “work for”. If I tell someone to work out his bonus, I am advising/instructing him to make sure he gets it… by working.


In 2 Corinthians 5:9, we read that believers make it their ambition to be pleasing to the Lord. Nothing there about salvation by works and perverting the gospel is not pleasing to the Lord.


Supporters/followers work to please you so that their aims are achieved by remaining in your favour and you do not end up punishing them, as with everything else in the real world. So similarly in the Kingdom of God.


So in Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost?


I've heard many works salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness (1 John 2:3; 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him.


Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.


The point is that believers need to obey both to be enrolled and to complete/work out salvation.


By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected. bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). Make sure that you are saved. To practice these qualities gives evidence of and assurance of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Cause of being in Christ (FAITH) effect of being in Christ (FRUIT).

In summation, salvation is contingent upon fruit.


For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (vs. 8). For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins (vs. 9). What is the object of the forgetting? Is this forgetting temporary because this believer had fallen into error or does this lack of fruit exist because this person’s "cleansing" was merely an external reformation that did not come from a truly changed heart? The genuineness of their profession will be demonstrated as they express these virtues. These fruits confirm their divine source. Romans 8:30 says, And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. All of them.


I don't see the word “all”.


In Hebrews 6:10-12, full assurance of hope is descriptive of a genuine believer. Just as we read in Hebrews 3:14, For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The only ones in the end who will be identified as those who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end." These faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? The wording of the above verse in Hebrews is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, if in the future you hold fast to Christ." Holding fast to Christ is a manifestation of genuine belief and having become partakers of Christ and departing from God is a manifestation of unbelief and failure to have become partakers of Christ.


Again, in summation, salvation is contingent upon fruit.


In Philippians 3:11-14, Paul is neither teaching salvation by works or sinless perfection. There is also a difference between relative perfection and absolute perfection. Paul emphasizes the need for progress in Christian living. Paul is still involved in the struggles of life in a fallen world and strives to be perfect/mature. Paul denies that he has reached a spiritual impasse of non-development. Paul has made great progress, but the goal is still before him, not behind him. Salvation is a gift that we receive through faith and is not a prize that we work for and earn, yet there is fullness of blessings and rewards in the age to come. Just like in the Olympics, some will receive various medals (gold, silver, bronze) and some will receive no medals, but they were all still in the Olympics. *Don't forget to read Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.


Correction, Salvation By Faith, SBF, as opposed to Salvation By Works Of The Law, SBWOTL, is a gift that we receive through nothing, not even faith, and is not a prize that we work for and earn. Even SBWOTL was agift because Israel was not the greatest of nations. God will have mercy on whichever nation He pleases, Jew or Gentile.


In regards to the will of the Father and living forever in 1 John 2:17, we see what the will of the Father is in regards to receiving eternal life in John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.


Except that in the Ancient Near East, believing in a person, pistis, is being loyal to him. Just as that statement expresses loyalty to Freegracer, Bob Wilkins.


Notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished or that we are saved by works that are produced "out of" faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" faith. Works-salvationists try to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith and end up making no distinction between faith and works that follow as a result of faith.


Conjecture about Thessalonians 13, and as for Hebrews 11:1


Quote

So, an example of how the Patron-Client system can be relevant to Biblical interpretation is Hebrews 11:1.

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (NRSV)

That is a rather horrible translation.


The words "faith" (faithfulness) and "hoped" (expected), are technical terms in the Patron-Client system. As noted before, "faithfulness" denotes the client's loyalty to their patron (and also the patron's loyalty to the client). "Expect" denotes the hope of future favours. A client could validly expect favours from their Patron if they had been faithful to their Patron and served them well. Thus, in the first half of the verse we actually just have a basic statement about how the Patron-Client system works: If you are faithful you can expect favours. That's it. It's a summary of how a part of their every-day life society worked. The second half of the verse is just saying the same thing a different way: Our faithfulness testifies that we will receive favours that we haven't yet gotten (that we do not yet "see").


Historically this verse has been a minefield for people arguing over the definition of faithfulness. A huge amount of stuff has been written trying to nail down precisely what each of the words in the sentence meant in an effort to get a precise definition of "faith" out of it. (Unfortunately this didn't work too well as a few of the words in the sentence have a variety of translation possibilities) But as a result of these efforts a lot of people are convinced that the Bible here defines faith as belief in things we can't see. As a result of theologians' sterling efforts over the centuries in mining the bible for sentences such as this one they have had great fun in formulating exactly what it means to have "faith". "Faith" had become an almost-magical word, set apart from everyday life.


Theo Geek: The Patron-Client system and Hebrews 11:1


In regards to Galatians 5:6, true faith is living and active and works through love. Nothing there about salvation by works.


It says it matters. Since the text is not dealing with a game of tiddlywinks, it matters, for salvation.


In regards to Titus 3:8, "careful to maintain good works/these things are good and profitable to men" is not saying we are saved by works. We are saved FOR (not by) good works (Ephesians 2:10).


The one does not negate the other.


You mentioned, "not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law" as if good works in general are excluded from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40). I often hear this bogus argument from works salvationists who try to teach that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works.


In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).


In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me, which good works could a Christian do that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself?


Circumcision. Which if a Christian teaches, or any other marker that distinquishes Judaism, he will have to follow the whole Law, Old Covenant, become a Jew.


For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That's why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.


The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not the works; rather, life in faith is the source of the works. Works salvationists get this backwards and put the cart before the horse.


Again there is a weak faith, one that pledges loyalty but stops at that, but there is no false faith.
 
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TheSeabass

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Gen 15 nor James 2 nor any bible passage ever says Abraham was reckoned righteous at one quick moment in time by having "faith only". Bible contexts show us that Abraham being reckoned righteous/justified was a process he went through that required His faithful obedience to the will of God all along the way beginning in Gen 12 with his faithfully obeying God's will in moving. If no obedience in Gen 12, Gen 15 would never have happened. God chose Abraham for God foreknew of Abraham's faithfulness in that he would command his children to obey God Genesis 18:19.
 
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Danthemailman said in post #48:

You mentioned, "not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law" as if good works in general are excluded from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40). I often hear this bogus argument from works salvationists who try to teach that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works.

The phrase "not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law" is based on the fact that on Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All Christians, whether Jews or Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Christians keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18-19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there's no reason any Christian should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after He'd set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before He brought this promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), while the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices for sin (Leviticus 23:19), while the New Covenant replaced these with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself on the Cross (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:21-25). So those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, Abraham's son by a bondmaid (Galatians 4:22), who was cast out (Galatians 4:30), while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:28), Abraham's son by a freewoman (Galatians 4:22,31), who became his heir (Galatians 4:30b).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, including the letter of its 10 commandments, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8) was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14 and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8.

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been completely and forever done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it's still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), while the New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8-9b) which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b) and which permits Christians to remove the veil and behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even Christians into thinking they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5) or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any Christians are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law thinking they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus Christ will profit them nothing. They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).
 
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Danthemailman said in post #48:

You mentioned, "not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law" as if good works in general are excluded from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40). I often hear this bogus argument from works salvationists who try to teach that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works.

Note that Jesus Christ shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover their newlywed wife isn't a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

Jesus Christ also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while His New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it's also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed His disciples to work on the sabbath and said they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus Himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

So in obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).
 
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Wordkeeper said in post #56:

Matthew 13:

18“Hear then the parable of the sower.

Amen.

For in that parable the last three types of people all received God's Word and came into faith. The one who came into faith on stony ground believed for awhile, but subsequently committed apostasy (Luke 8:13; cf. 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), which ultimately results in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b). The one who came into faith on weed-choked ground subsequently neglected to patiently continue in good works, neglected to bear fruit to perfection (Luke 8:14, Colossians 1:10, Revelation 3:1b-2). And the one who came into faith on good ground subsequently brought forth fruit with patience (Luke 8:15), which is required for Christians to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, James 2:24), and not to ultimately lose their salvation (John 15:2a,6, Matthew 25:26,30).
 
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