Saint Peter says: Second Advent = Second Resurrection - All Other Theories Debunked

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
:doh:

Now you're getting really good showing everyone how delusional you really are. Jesus didn't return in 70 AD.

I never said that Christ returned in 70 AD. He will return sometime in the future only one time at His Second Coming.
.
 
Upvote 0

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
OK, let's get specific. Cite one of the "opinions" you consider to be unsourced.


According to what authority do you call them reformers or non-pre-tribbers. What does that have to do with the text that was published in their Bible?


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Pretrib author Grant Jeffrey was willing to pervert the writings of the Early Church Fathers in order to make his doctrine work. He did this by cutting and pasting what they said in order to cut out those parts he did not like.

<SNIP> is what it sounds like when a verse is cut out of the Bible or out of the writings of those who were the early followers of Christ.

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
According to what authority do you call them reformers or non-pre-tribbers. What does that have to do with the text that was published in their Bible?

By their own declarations of the papacy as antichrist. With the true church thus suffering under antichrist, there was no pretrib rapture.

Do you wish me to cite some of their declarations?
 
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,079
310
Midwest
✟102,089.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Jesus didn't return in 70 AD.

Jesus did not physically/bodily return in 70 A.D.

Jesus did return in judgment against the unbelieving Jews in 70 A.D. via the Roman Empire's armies.
Jesus sent the Roman armies to destroy the great city, the harlot of Babylon, which was Jerusalem. The city that killed the prophets and apostles was Jerusalem. The great city where our Lord Jesus was crucified was Jerusalem.

Revelation 17:16
And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast (Roman Empire (Rome) and its Armies) will hate the harlot (Jerusalem); they (Roman Empire and its Armies) will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, rsv
This prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

Shortly before Jesus' death on the cross in about 30 A.D., Jesus warns about the coming judgment against the Pharisees and the Lawyers and the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple and its unbelieving people. Jesus states that their judgment will occur within that very generation (40 years is one generation.) His prophecy is fulfilled in 70 A.D.


Luke 11:42-52
“But woe to you Pharisees! for you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 43 Woe to you Pharisees! for you love the best seat in the synagogues and salutations in the market places. 44 Woe to you! for you are like graves which are not seen, and men walk over them without knowing it.”
45 One of the lawyers answered him, “Teacher, in saying this you reproach us also.” 46 And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! for you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. 47 Woe to you! for you build the tombs of the prophets whom your fathers killed. 48 So you are witnesses and consent to the deeds of your fathers; for they killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ 50 that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechari′ah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it shall be required of this generation. 52 Woe to you lawyers! for you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.” rsv

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! rsv

Luke 13:33
Nevertheless I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.’ rsv

Acts 7:52
Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered, rsv

Revelation 11:8
and their dead bodies (the prophecies about the Messiah which are present in the Law of Moses and the writings of the Prophets but are disregarded by the unbelieving Jews) will lie in the street of the great city (harlot Jerusalem) which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

Luke 19:43-44
For the days shall come upon you, when your enemies (Roman armies) will cast up a bank about you and surround you, and hem you in on every side, 44 and dash you to the ground, you and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another in you; because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Matthew 24:1-2
Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down. rsv
Shortly before Paul died, he states that the time for God's/Jesus' judgment upon Jerusalem, its unbelieving people, and its temple are now beginning:

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16
For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea; for you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all men 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God’s wrath has come upon them at last! rsv


Luke 21:20
[ The Destruction of Jerusalem Foretold ] “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. rsv​

It took 42 months to fulfill God's revenge upon Jerusalem, its temple, and its unbelieving people. Paul was martyred by Nero (Antichrist) right before the beginning of this 42 months siege against Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:2
but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations (Roman Empire armies), and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months. rsv​
 
Upvote 0

Quasar92

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 7, 2016
3,762
1,943
100
Lexington, KY 40517
Visit site
✟332,574.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
By their own declarations of the papacy as antichrist. With the true church thus suffering under antichrist, there was no pretrib rapture.

Do you wish me to cite some of their declarations?


It doesn't make a bit of difference what anyone said except for the what was printed in their Bibles. Is that clear enough?


Quasar92
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It doesn't make a bit of difference what anyone said except for the what was printed in their Bibles. Is that clear enough?


2 Thess. 2:3 - in Dialogue of Justin

O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy,[420]

2 Thess. 2:3 - in Victorinus Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John

Paul the apostle says: "Except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin shall appear, the son of perdition; and the adversary who exalted himself above all which is called God, or which is worshipped."[61]
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Matthew Twentyfour

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Jan 19, 2015
560
96
✟8,141.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I never said that Christ returned in 70 AD. He will return sometime in the future only one time at His Second Coming.
.

Oh now I see what you meant. You're trying to tell everyone there's a 2000 year gap hidden between Luke 21:24-25 when you wrote this in post 450, Luke 21:24 was fulfilled 2000 years ago but Luke 21:25 doesn't get fulfill till Christ returns.

BABerean2 writes:

Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(In the verse above we have the destruction of the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Then we have a period of time called "the times of the Gentiles" which will occur until the beginning of the next verse, which refers to the Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from the NKJV)

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 
(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)


Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(In the verse above we have the destruction of the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Then we have a period of time called "the times of the Gentiles" which will occur until the beginning of the next verse, which refers to the Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from the NKJV)

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 
(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 

Here's my reply.......:doh:

More evidence you're just making things up as you go along.
 
Upvote 0

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,079
310
Midwest
✟102,089.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
NO, THIS PROPHECY WAS NOT FULFILLED IN 70 AD. WISHFUL THINKING BY A PRETERIST'S VIEW. THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST MEANING NONE OF IT CAN BE FULFILLED WITHOUT JESUS' RETURN AT THE END. HE NEVER RETURNED IN 70 AD, SO TAKE YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE GUTTER.

We do disagree. :)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here's my reply.......:doh:

More evidence you're just making things up as you go along.

What does the text say?
Here it is straight from the NKJV.



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
 
Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
 
Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
 
Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 


The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
 
Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

Do you think Luke was "making things up"?

.
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
4,509
921
America
Visit site
✟265,293.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"Rom_11:26  And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "THE DELIVERER WILL COME OUT OF ZION, AND HE WILL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB;
(All of Israel that is Israel from Romans 9:6 will be saved by being grafted into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.)"

This then ignores all the context, with Paul grieving for Israel, which is made meaningless for that interpretation. Also not dealt with is the scripture that Yahweh's love for Israel is everlasting. In its context, unending love is not really meaningful if it is to be removed with its promises from Yahweh from that group and given to another group with that group given its name, which is understood in your interpretation but is not though the reality. Spiritual Israel does not mean that every time the name Israel will be used then will be for that meaning.

Mat 21:37  Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 
Mat 21:38  But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' 
Mat 21:39  So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. 
Mat 21:40  "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?" 
Mat 21:41  They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons." 
Mat 21:42  Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ? 
Mat 21:43  "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 
(The nation that it is given to is found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.)


1Pe 2:4  Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 
1Pe 2:5  you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 
1Pe 2:6  Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHIEF CORNERSTONE, ELECT, PRECIOUS, AND HE WHO BELIEVES ON HIM WILL BY NO MEANS BE PUT TO SHAME." 
1Pe 2:7  Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE," 
1Pe 2:8  and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. 
1Pe 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 
1Pe 2:10  who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Those who have rejected the Son cannot be in a right relationship with His Father.
God is not now a respecter of persons based on a sample of DNA.
A relationship to God is based on a person accepting "the chief cornerstone".

Christ's parable was referring to the religious leaders, not all the people of Israel.

And Peter was not speaking of the people of Israel who are to be replaced, but of those who are disobedient, and reject Christ.

It is your interpretation that Israel was to be replaced and the promises to the people of Israel were to go to others replacing them. But the passage of Jeremiah 31:3 which I mention and is still not considered in responses that just go to other verses excludes that interpretation.

Those promises are not about relationship with Yahweh that excludes anyone of other genetic makeup. The promises have what is said of descendants who are heirs of the covenant, and gentiles are grafted in with those believers of Israel with the new covenant. But with what Paul who grieved for the people of Israel said, the time will for the remnant from them, that all of Israel will be saved. It is just as the original Christian believers were Jewish. Paul would make no sense to speak of his grief for people of Israel who still were disbelieving, and then speak of the saved elect with calling them Israel, even with no comment that he was using the name of Israel in that sense anywhere in that context, which would give no new information useful in that context. Paul was not doing that.

I too believe believers will be removed before the great tribulations.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Christ's parable was referring to the religious leaders, not all the people of Israel.

And Peter was not speaking of the people of Israel who are to be replaced, but of those who are disobedient, and reject Christ.

It is your interpretation that Israel was to be replaced and the promises to the people of Israel were to go to others replacing them. But the passage of Jeremiah 31:3 which I mention and is still not considered in responses that just go to other verses excludes that interpretation.

Those promises are not about relationship with Yahweh that excludes anyone of other genetic makeup. The promises have what is said of descendants who are heirs of the covenant, and gentiles are grafted in with those believers of Israel with the new covenant. But with what Paul who grieved for the people of Israel said, the time will for the remnant from them, that all of Israel will be saved. It is just as the original Christian believers were Jewish. Paul would make no sense to speak of his grief for people of Israel who still were disbelieving, and then speak of the saved elect with calling them Israel, even with no comment that he was using the name of Israel in that sense anywhere in that context, which would give no new information useful in that context. Paul was not doing that.

I too believe believers will be removed before the great tribulations.

It is not my interpretation. It is Peter's found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

In Matthew chapter 21 Christ tells the Pharisees the kingdom will be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone" and it will be given to another nation.

In 1 Peter 2:4-10, Peter interprets the passage for us by referring to those who accept the "chief cornerstone" and he refers to them as "a holy nation".

Yet today we have Christians who say the modern State of Israel rightfully belongs to modern Jews, who like the Pharisees have rejected the "chief cornerstone".

They are ignoring the fact that there is a small number of our Brothers and Sisters in Christ who now live in the modern State of Israel. They are from many different races of people. Should an Arab Christian be told to move from their home to make room for a Jewish settlement? It is not as simple as some would like to make it.


All of the Old Testament promises based on genealogy are found fulfilled in the first verse in the New Testament, in Matthew 1:1. Christ is the seed of Abraham and the seed of David. This understanding is confirmed by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:9, and Paul in Galatians 3:16, and Christ in John 8, and Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:4, and 1 John 2:22-23.
God is not now a respecter of persons, based on DNA.


The confusion comes from the fact that we find two Israels in Romans 9:6-8.
There is an Israel of the Flesh and an Israel of the Promise. This is clearly revealed in Romans 9:8.
Lumping both groups together into one group simply called "Israel" will never give the correct interpretation.


Paul's comment in Romans 11:26 must be viewed through his previous comments in Romans 9:6-8.
He had already said that not all of Israel of the Flesh was Israel of the Promise.
He also quoted the Old Testament at the end of the chapter saying that even though the number of Israelites would be "as the sand of the sea" only "a remnant" would be saved. The word "remnant" can never mean "all"


Throughout Romans 11 Paul makes it clear that those broken off of the Olive Tree could be grafted back into the tree, through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Paul provides no path to salvation outside of the Olive Tree. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant fulfilled for all race of people at Calvary.

Some have replaced the word "so", which is an adverb of manner in Romans 11:26, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing. I have heard John Hagee make this change on television.
I have heard Dr. David Jeremiah leave out the word "so" during a television program. Both men changed the text to make their doctrine work. The word "so" is describing how those broken off of the tree can be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ. There is no Plan B. Throughout Romans 11 Paul describes two groups of Israelites, one faithful and one not. He starts with the Israelites who worshipped Baal and the 7,000 who would not. He said there was also a "remnant" during his time. He ends the passage in the same way with two groups of "they". There is "they" who have rejected the Gospel and have become the enemies of God, just like the Baal worshippers and there is another group of "they" who have accepted the Messiah and have become the election. All of Israel is not "partially blinded". Instead, part of Israel is blinded and part of Israel is not blinded.


I have never seen an explanation of Revelation 12:11 which proves that those under the Blood of the Lamb are not members of the New Covenant Church. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

John describes the 144,000 as "firstfruits" of the Lamb. In Romans 16:5 Paul uses the same term to describe Christians.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

The Early Church Fathers believed that our Brothers and Sisters would have to face the persecution of the tribulation period, because they understood that the Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are not the same word.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew Twentyfour

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Jan 19, 2015
560
96
✟8,141.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What does the text say?
Here it is straight from the NKJV.

The text said this in Luke 21:24-25.

Luke 21:24-25New King James Version (NKJV)
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;

The bible said Jesus returns in Luke 21:25.

What you're telling us is Luke 21:24 was fulfilled in 70AD and Jesus returns in Luke 21:25. That's a sudden 2000 year gap nowhere mentioned in Luke 21.

BABerean2 wrote:

Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(In the verse above we have the destruction of the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Then we have a period of time called "the times of the Gentiles" which will occur until the beginning of the next verse, which refers to the Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from the NKJV)

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 
(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 

EVIDENCE HERE!
Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
(In the verse above we have the destruction of the city of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Then we have a period of time called "the times of the Gentiles" which will occur until the beginning of the next verse, which refers to the Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man (subtitle from the NKJV)

Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 
(Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 

You reject Daniel's prophesy of a 2000 year gap but make up a 2000 year gap in Luke's writings. You're not doing very well covering up the things you make up.


Do you think Luke was "making things up"?

No, I'm telling you you're making things up and now you want to point the finger at Luke. Are you telling us you know more about what Luke wrote than he did and forgot to tell everyone there's a 2000 year gap between Luke 21:24 and Luke 21:25 that no one else knows about except you?
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What you're telling us is Luke 21:24 was fulfilled in 70AD and Jesus returns in Luke 21:25. That's a sudden 2000 year gap nowhere mentioned in Luke 21.

I am not the only one telling you that the first part of Luke 21:24 is about 70 AD.
Look at just a few commentaries.

.....................................................................
From Adam Clarke


Luke 21:24


They shall fall by the edge of the sword - Those who perished in the siege are reckoned to be not less than eleven hundred thousand. See Mat_24:22.

And shall be led away captive - To the number of ninety-seven thousand. See Josephus, War, b. vi. c. ix. s. 2, 3, and on Mat_24:31 (note).

Trodden down of the Gentiles - Judea was so completely subjugated that the very land itself was sold by Vespasian; the Gentiles possessing it, while the Jews were either nearly all killed or led away into captivity.


Of the Gentiles be fulfilled - Till the different nations of the earth, to whom God shall have given the dominion over this land, have accomplished all that which the Lord hath appointed them to do; and till the time of their conversion to God take place. But when shall this be? We know not. The nations are still treading down Jerusalem, and the end is known only to the Lord. See the note on Mat_24:31.

................................................................................
From John Wesley


Luke 21:24


They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive - Eleven hundred thousand perished in the siege of Jerusalem, and above ninety thousand were sold for slaves. So terribly was this prophecy fulfilled! And Jerusalem shall be trodden by the Gentiles - That is, inhabited. So it was indeed. The land was sold, and no Jew suffered even to come within sight of Jerusalem. The very foundations of the city were ploughed up, and a heathen temple built where the temple of God had stood. The times of the Gentiles - That is, the times limited for their treading the city; which shall terminate in the full conversion of the Gentiles.

.......................................................................


From John Darby

In Luke it is the coming service of the disciples, until the moment when the judgment of God should put an end to that which was virtually terminated by the rejection of Christ. Consequently the Lord says nothing in Verse 20 (Luk_21:20) of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, but gives the fact of the siege of Jerusalem, and its then approaching desolation — not the end of the age, as in Matthew. These were the days of vengeance on the Jews, who had crowned their rebellion by rejecting the Lord. Therefore Jerusalem should be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled, that is, the times destined to the sovereignty of the Gentile empires according to the counsel of God revealed in the prophecies of Daniel. This is the period in which we now live.

..........................................................................


Even John Darby agreed with this fact. Was Darby "making things up"?


Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 


Maybe you cannot see a period of time in Luke 21:24.
You may want to first look for the word
"times".



I never said it was a 2,000 year gap. I have no idea how long it will be.

.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
4,509
921
America
Visit site
✟265,293.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
BABerean2 said:
It is not my interpretation. It is Peter's found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.

In Matthew chapter 21 Christ tells the Pharisees the kingdom will be taken from those who reject the "chief cornerstone" and it will be given to another nation.

In 1 Peter 2:4-10, Peter interprets the passage for us by referring to those who accept the "chief cornerstone" and he refers to them as "a holy nation".

All of the Old Testament promises based on genealogy are found fulfilled in the first verse in the New Testament, in Matthew 1:1. Christ is the seed of Abraham and the seed of David. This understanding is confirmed by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:9, and Paul in Galatians 3:16, and Christ in John 8, and Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:4, and 1 John 2:22-23.
God is not now a respecter of persons, based on DNA.


The confusion comes from the fact that we find two Israels in Romans 9:6-8.
There is an Israel of the Flesh and an Israel of the Promise. This is clearly revealed in Romans 9:8.
Lumping both groups together into one group simply called "Israel" will never give the correct interpretation.


Paul's comment in Romans 11:26 must be viewed through his previous comments in Romans 9:6-8.
He had already said that not all of Israel of the Flesh was Israel of the Promise.
He also quoted the Old Testament at the end of the chapter saying that even though the number of Israelites would be "as the sand of the sea" only "a remnant" would be saved. The word "remnant" can never mean "all"


Throughout Romans 11 Paul makes it clear that those broken off of the Olive Tree could be grafted back into the tree, through faith in Christ. The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree. Paul provides no path to salvation outside of the Olive Tree. The covenant in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant fulfilled for all race of people at Calvary.

Some have replaced the word "so", which is an adverb of manner in Romans 11:26, with the word "then", which is an adverb of timing. I have heard John Hagee make this change on television.
I have heard Dr. David Jeremiah leave out the word "so" during a television program. Both men changed the text to make their doctrine work. The word "so" is describing how those broken off of the tree can be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ. There is no Plan B. Throughout Romans 11 Paul describes two groups of Israelites, one faithful and one not. He starts with the Israelites who worshipped Baal and the 7,000 who would not. He said there was also a "remnant" during his time. He ends the passage in the same way with two groups of "they". There is "they" who have rejected the Gospel and have become the enemies of God, just like the Baal worshippers and there is another group of "they" who have accepted the Messiah and have become the election. All of Israel is not "partially blinded". Instead, part of Israel is blinded and part of Israel is not blinded.


I have never seen an explanation of Revelation 12:11 which proves that those under the Blood of the Lamb are not members of the New Covenant Church. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Christ.

John describes the 144,000 as "firstfruits" of the Lamb. In Romans 16:5 Paul uses the same term to describe Christians.

The Capital "C" Church as we use the word today is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

The Early Church Fathers believed that our Brothers and Sisters would have to face the persecution of the tribulation period, because they understood that the Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" are not the same word.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Why, tell me, the olive tree is symbolic of the new covenant church? What authority is that from? I would need to know. Why wouldn't it mean the people of God?

What Jesus said was the kingdom would be taken from those he spoke to, the leaders who thought to have the kingdom themselves.

From 1 Peter 2:
4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”
8 and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

The Christian church started with converts among Jews, people of Israel. When Paul was designated to go to the gentiles with the gospel, Peter was among the apostles who were to lead the converts among the Jews, people of Israel. So as the epistle from Peter is to those of the dispersal, how should we suppose it is not for Jewish believers? Still it was understood that gentile believers were among them. There is a holy nation of them, in the new covenant, Jewish believers, and gentile believers are grafted in, through Christ, they are a new people together in Christ. So those still wild may be yet grafted in, but it is all through Christ. And the prophecy, for all Israel that remains still, to be saved, will be with Jews, people of Israel, this is in context of what Paul said he wanted so badly. There is the passage there for that, which says "all", and not "remnant" as you say. And there are prophecies for Israel yet to have fulfillment that will have it through them. Promises to people of Israel are not taken away and given to another. They are not to "Spiritual Israel" spoken of in one place in the new testament, and promises to Israel are not seen from lumping people of Israel to such "Spiritual Israel", which has its own promises. Yahweh means that which was said, inclusive of what was for Israel, as it was understood.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Quasar92
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And the prophecy, for all Israel that remains still, to be saved, will be with Jews, people of Israel, this is in context of what Paul said he wanted so badly. There is the passage there for that, which says "all", and not "remnant" as you say. And there are prophecies for Israel yet to have fulfillment that will have it through them. Promises to people of Israel are not taken away and given to another. They are not to "Spiritual Israel" spoken of in one place in the new testament, and promises to Israel are not seen from lumping people of Israel to such "Spiritual Israel", which has its own promises. Yahweh means that which was said, inclusive of what was for Israel, as it was understood.

If the word "all" in Romans 11:26 means every Jew, then Paul must have been a schizophrenic.

In Romans 9:6-8 Paul made it clear that all Israel is not Israel.
He said it is about the promise, instead of the flesh.


In Romans 9:27 Paul quotes the Old Testament passage about the "remnant".

In Romans 11:1-5 Paul talks about two groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah.
One was faithful and one was not.
He also said there was a faithful "remnant" during his time.


So, did Paul change his mind in Romans 11, or was he talking about "all" of the remnant?

Many have changed the word "so" (Greek- houto), which is an adverb of manner, into the word "then", which is an adverb of timing, in Romans 11:26.
They have changed the covenant in Romans 11:27 from the New Covenant confirmed at Calvary into a covenant to be confirmed in the future with the modern State of Israel.


If we want modern Jews to be saved, we need to share the Gospel of the New Covenant with them now, instead of waiting on a future period of time.

This Jewish man found the promise of the New Covenant in his Hebrew scriptures. (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
4,509
921
America
Visit site
✟265,293.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
BABerean2 said:
If the word "all" in Romans 11:26 means every Jew, then Paul must have been a schizophrenic.

In Romans 9:6-8 Paul made it clear that all Israel is not Israel.
He said it is about the promise, instead of the flesh.


In Romans 11:1-5 Paul talks about two groups of Israelites during the time of Elijah.
One was faithful and one was not.
He also said there was a faithful "remnant" during his time.


So, did Paul change his mind in Romans 11, or was he talking about "all" of the remnant?

If we want modern Jews to be saved, we need to share the Gospel of the New Covenant with them now, instead of waiting on a future period of time.

No, there is nothing to be seen as schizophrenic from this. Using the introduction of spiritual Israel at the beginning portion of chapter 9 is not the surrounding context where Paul wrote that yet all Israel would be saved, in chapter 11. If all Israel were to mean only spiritual Israel, this that would then be a confusing verse should never have been written, maybe you would have been fine if it weren't there. We don't need to be told that all the saved will be saved, this useless message would be there if it meant just spiritual Israel. But the real context shows that Paul's concern is for all the remaining Israel, that are not converts to Christ yet. His prophetic statement ties to old testament prophecies where the remnant of Israel, with those not saying other people who will be joined and become Israel, will ultimately be saved. They will face crisis which will destroy them, that is beyond their ability to save themselves, and they will recognize Christ for who he is, from the miraculous testimony (this happens after the two witnesses with their miracles, and the 144000), and call on him, and they will then be saved. Of course, as this is saying, it is with sharing the gospel of Christ, as we can and should do now, for it does not need to wait when Jews can be getting saved, in Christ, now, as in some cases some are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Quasar92
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, there is nothing to be seen as schizophrenic from this. Using the introduction of spiritual Israel at the beginning portion of chapter 9 is not the surrounding context where Paul wrote that yet all Israel would be saved, in chapter 11. If all Israel were to mean only spiritual Israel, this that would then be a confusing verse should never have been written, maybe you would have been fine if it weren't there. We don't need to be told that all the saved will be saved, this useless message would be there if it meant just spiritual Israel. But the real context shows that Paul's concern is for all the remaining Israel, that are not converts to Christ yet. His prophetic statement ties to old testament prophecies where the remnant of Israel, with those not saying other people who will be joined and become Israel, will ultimately be saved. They will face crisis which will destroy them, that is beyond their ability to save themselves, and they will recognize Christ for who he is, from the miraculous testimony (this happens after the two witnesses with their miracles, and the 144000), and call on him, and they will then be saved. Of course, as this is saying, it is with sharing the gospel of Christ, as we can and should do now, for it does not need to wait when Jews can be getting saved, in Christ, now, as in some cases some are.

Paul uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.


You are missing a very important Greek word in Romans 11:26.
That word is "houto". It is the manner in which to be saved.


How will they be saved according to Romans chapter 11?

Rom 11:23  And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 


Romans 11:26 is about the manner of salvation, rather than the timing of salvation.

I have heard Dispensationalists, like John Hagee, change the word "so" to the word "then" on television.
I have heard David Jeremiah leave out the word "so", when quoting the verse.
This is a corruption of scripture that should not be tolerated.



Modern Dispensational Theology falls apart once a person comes to realize that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Jan001

Striving to win the prize...
Supporter
Oct 17, 2013
2,079
310
Midwest
✟102,089.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The "first resurrection" in John chapter 5 is the process of being spiritually passed from death to life upon coming to faith in Christ. It is found in John 5:24. The second resurrection in John 5 is of the body and is found in John 5:28-30. This bodily resurrection occurs at 2 Peter chapter 3, and is also found in Revelation 11:18. Both are describing the Second Coming of Christ described in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, which occurs on the "day of the Lord", when He comes "as a thief". It is also found in Revelation 16:15-16.

Our spiritual resurrection is when we receive the baptism commanded by Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:18-20.

Romans 6:3-4
By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. rsv​

Our immortal physical resurrection will be at the time of Jesus' second coming.

Each person will receive his new immortal physical body when Jesus returns for His second coming.

Lazarus and the others whose dead physical bodies came to life again, their physical bodies also had to die again to await their resurrection from the dead at the time of Jesus' second coming.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. rsv

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. rsv​


The first resurrection was by Jesus Christ on the third day after He was buried. He received His immortal physical body at that time.

The people whose souls/spirits entered into heaven after Jesus' death on the cross participated/shared in His resurrection which is the first resurrection, but they did not receive immortal bodies at this time. This resurrection is recorded in Revelation 20:6.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years. rsv
All the souls/spirits who enter into heaven after their physical death will also share in this first resurrection and they will reign with Jesus Christ in heaven until His second coming.

2 Timothy 2:11-13
The saying is sure:
If we have died with him, we shall also live with him;
12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—
for he cannot deny himself. rsv

All people will receive immortal bodies at the time of Jesus' second coming.

John 5:26-29
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, 27 and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. rsv

1 Corinthians 15:20-26
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. rsv

The following people in Matthew 27:50-54 did not receive immortal bodies at the time of their physical resurrection. Their mortal bodies returned to their tombs to await the resurrection of the dead and their souls/spirits went to heaven to reign with Jesus Christ until the time of His second coming. These souls/spirits will reign with Him in heaven for "a thousand years", which is symbolic for the time period between His ascension into heaven and His second coming.

Matthew 27:50-54
And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe, and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!” rsv​
 
Upvote 0