Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?

  • Eternal Torment

    Votes: 33 42.3%
  • Annihilation

    Votes: 16 20.5%
  • Universal Reconciliation

    Votes: 10 12.8%
  • Probably annihilation but still hopeful of universal reconciliation

    Votes: 5 6.4%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 10 12.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 5.1%

  • Total voters
    78

Der Alte

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Obviously there are lost ones are in v.17.
Other comments have been addressed before or didn't need any reply.
Every passage does not give us the whole story [that's what the whole bible is for], otherwise the bible would not be the size it is, but be the size of a very large library.
Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."
Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."
Concordant, irrelevant. The translator does not explain why he chose the definition of aionios he did.
Rotherham, irrelevant! The translator does not explain why he chose the definition of aionios he did.
Young's irrelevant! The translator does not explain why he chose the definition of aionios he did.

The vast majority of learned sources agree ...
Irrelevant broad generalization with no, zero, none evidence.
Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, ...
Another irrelevant generalization with no, zero, none evidence.
Same old copy/paste from Tents-я-us omitted.

Wiki? Seriously? Wiki is about as reliable as the scribbles on a public facility wall. Every page has [edit] links anyone can post, change or delete anything without review.
 
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ClementofA

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Wiki? Seriously? Wiki is about as reliable as the scribbles on a public facility wall. Every page has [edit] links anyone can post, change or delete anything without review.

I happen to know the person so can vouch for what it said. Moreover the page contains links referring to useful resources.
 
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Der Alte

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I happen to know the person so can vouch for what it said. Moreover the page contains links referring to useful resources.
I don't know him or you so that is not much help. What you should do is get the primary source and quote from it.
 
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Mark Corbett

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For anyone interested, I just started a new thread which is relevant to this ongoing discussion. Why start a new thread? Well, I wanted to begin by carefully explaining how the doctrine of Conditional Immortality should influence the debate between annihilationism, eternal conscious torment, and universalism. That required more detail than is normally found in a comment. So, please continue discussing here, but also, if interested, take a look at this: Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationism, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism.
 
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Dartman

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Was Jesus lying? Today in paradise ...
You realize the translators have CREATED a conflict with the rest of Scripture, by merely inventing a comma in the verse, and placing it according to their bias?
Jesus merely said, "Verily I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise". Jesus didn't go to paradise that day. Nor did the thief. Jesus went to hell for the next 3 days, (Acts 2:31).
 
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Aseyesee

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You realize the translators have CREATED a conflict with the rest of Scripture, by merely inventing a comma in the verse, and placing it according to their bias?
Jesus merely said, "Verily I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise". Jesus didn't go to paradise that day. Nor did the thief. Jesus went to hell for the next 3 days, (Acts 2:31).

Faith says today ...
 
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Der Alte

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You realize the translators have CREATED a conflict with the rest of Scripture, by merely inventing a comma in the verse, and placing it according to their bias?
Jesus merely said, "Verily I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise". Jesus didn't go to paradise that day. Nor did the thief. Jesus went to hell for the next 3 days, (Acts 2:31).
Long, long before there were any allegedly biased translators.
● Apocrypha of the New Testament narrative of Joseph Chap 3
And the robber having thus spoken, Jesus says to him: Amen, amen; I say to thee, Demas, that to-day thou shalt be with me in paradise. (Luk_23:43) And the sons of the kingdom, the children of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and Moses, shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat_8:11, Mat_8:12) And thou alone shalt dwell in paradise until my second appearing, when I am to judge those who do not confess my name.
● The Gospel of Nicodemus. Part II.
Chap 10 (26) I entreated Him, saying, Be mindful of me, Lord, when Thou shall have come into Thy kingdom. Immediately He accepted my entreaty, and said to me, Amen; I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk_23:42,Luk_23:43) And He gave me this sign of the cross, saying, Walk into paradise carrying this; and if the guardian angel of paradise will not let thee go in, show him the sign of the cross, and thou shall say to him, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who has now been crucified, has sent me.

 
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Dartman

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Dartman said:
You realize the translators have CREATED a conflict with the rest of Scripture, by merely inventing a comma in the verse, and placing it according to their bias?
Jesus merely said, "Verily I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise". Jesus didn't go to paradise that day. Nor did the thief. Jesus went to hell for the next 3 days, (Acts 2:31).
Faith says today ...
Faith in the translators over Scripture?? Why?
 
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Dartman

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Long, long before there were any allegedly biased translators.
● Apocrypha of the New Testament narrative of Joseph Chap 3
And the robber having thus spoken, Jesus says to him: Amen, amen; I say to thee, Demas, that to-day thou shalt be with me in paradise. (Luk_23:43) And the sons of the kingdom, the children of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and Moses, shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat_8:11, Mat_8:12) And thou alone shalt dwell in paradise until my second appearing, when I am to judge those who do not confess my name.
● The Gospel of Nicodemus. Part II.
Chap 10 (26) I entreated Him, saying, Be mindful of me, Lord, when Thou shall have come into Thy kingdom. Immediately He accepted my entreaty, and said to me, Amen; I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk_23:42,Luk_23:43) And He gave me this sign of the cross, saying, Walk into paradise carrying this; and if the guardian angel of paradise will not let thee go in, show him the sign of the cross, and thou shall say to him, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who has now been crucified, has sent me.
Yes, the "falling away" was actually already at work in Paul's time, and the biased translators are merely a byproduct of the errors you have quoted here. (Acts 20:28-31 & 2 Thes 2:1-12)
 
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Rajni

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Jesus said it was a vision in the text.
This thread is still going on? I had unwatched it ages ago.
Anyway, I addressed the just-a-vision point waaaay back, on July 18th, post #545.
 
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Dartman

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Some versions don't call it a "vision", but "what you have seen". So I won't assume they were just trippin'.
They didn't see a literal event that happened that day. Jesus said they would "see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Peter states that's exactly what the vision revealed; 2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
RayJeena said:
Jesus is the Lamb that was slain from before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8, 1 Peter 1:20, Ephesians 1:4). Therefore, I could see it having an impact from that point.
Jesus wasn't on the cross before creation. The murder of Jesus was PLANNED from the beginning. Jesus resurrection is a VERY fixed point. He IS the "firstfruits of them that slept". Moses and Elijah are proven to be still waiting for their reward in Heb 11, and other texts.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes, the "falling away" was actually already at work in Paul's time, and the biased translators are merely a byproduct of the errors you have quoted here. (Acts 20:28-31 & 2 Thes 2:1-12)
Sorry amigo an unsupported opinion has zero credibility. Can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support you assertions? Right now it looks like I am the only one who has provided any evidence of any kind. Your\ball/court!
 
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Dartman

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Sorry amigo an unsupported opinion has zero credibility. Can you provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support you assertions? Right now it looks like I am the only one who has provided any evidence of any kind. Your\ball/court!
I quoted Scripture, you quoted apostate commentary. The ball's back in your court. Try to do better this time.
 
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Rajni

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They didn't see a literal event that happened that day. Jesus said they would "see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Peter states that's exactly what the vision revealed; 2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Jesus wasn't on the cross before creation. The murder of Jesus was PLANNED from the beginning. Jesus resurrection is a VERY fixed point. He IS the "firstfruits of them that slept". Moses and Elijah are proven to be still waiting for their reward in Heb 11, and other texts.
Whatevs. I unsubscribed from this thread ages ago and have moved on to other things.
Have fun, guys! :)
 
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Noxot

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some context for martha

Luke 10:38-42 (YLT)
And it came to pass, in their going on, that he entered into a certain village, and a certain woman, by name Martha, did receive him into her house, and she had also a sister, called Mary, who also, having seated herself beside the feet of Jesus, was hearing the word, and Martha was distracted about much serving, and having stood by him, she said, `Sir, dost thou not care that my sister left me alone to serve? say then to her, that she may partake along with me.' And Jesus answering said to her, `Martha, Martha, thou art anxious and disquieted about many things, but of one thing there is need, and Mary the good part did choose, that shall not be taken away from her.'

John 11:17-28 (YLT)
Jesus, therefore, having come, found him having been four days already in the tomb. And Bethany was nigh to Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off, and many of the Jews had come unto Martha and Mary, that they might comfort them concerning their brother; Martha, therefore, when she heard that Jesus doth come, met him, and Mary kept sitting in the house. Martha, therefore, said unto Jesus, `Sir, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died; but even now, I have known that whatever thou mayest ask of God, God will give to thee;' Jesus saith to her, `Thy brother shall rise again.' Martha saith to him, `I have known that he will rise again, in the rising again in the last day;' Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live; and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die--to the age; believest thou this?' she saith to him, `Yes, sir, I have believed that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming to the world.' And these things having said, she went away, and called Mary her sister privately, saying, `The Teacher is present, and doth call thee;'

John 11:39-44 (YLT)
Jesus saith, `Take ye away the stone;' the sister of him who hath died--Martha--saith to him, `Sir, already he stinketh, for he is four days dead;' Jesus saith to her, `Said I not to thee, that if thou mayest believe, thou shalt see the glory of God?' They took away, therefore, the stone where the dead was laid, and Jesus lifted his eyes upwards, and said, `Father, I thank Thee, that Thou didst hear me; and I knew that Thou always dost hear me, but, because of the multitude that is standing by, I said it , that they may believe that Thou didst send me.' And these things saying, with a loud voice he cried out, `Lazarus, come forth;' and he who died came forth, being bound feet and hands with grave-clothes, and his visage with a napkin was bound about; Jesus saith to them, `Loose him, and suffer to go.'
 
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Dartman

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Martha looked for a last day, for Jesus it was an I am truth, the truth he was ... Faith says today.
Martha was right, regarding resurrection to eternal life, Jesus was about to do a miracle that day, to ILLUSTRATE the reality of resurrection, and prove that his God had given Jesus the power to raise Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus wasn't raised to immortality, Jesus was the first, and so far the only.
 
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