God's Sabbath rest is not a weekly seventh day rest

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BobRyan

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John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.

Do you really think that God could not "act or speak" before Sinai?

Gal 3:8 "the GOSPEL was preached to Abraham"
John 8 "Abraham SAW My day and was glad".

Exegesis - what a concept here. Moses is writing BOTH Genesis and Exodus and Lev... he tells his readers that Abraham had God's LAWs and commandments. What did his readers think that meant given that they could read what Moses wrote about those terms in both Exodus and Leviticus??
Your argument seems to be that God did not say or do anything before writing His Law at Sinai...
 
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BobRyan

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Sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin had no power to condemn us until after the law was given: "For before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law." (Romans 5:13).
.

A total misread of Romans 5. Scripture shows Adam and Eve condemned in Genesis 3 due to sin.
Romans 5 affirms their condemnation to the point of death - in fact that 2nd death of Rev 20 ... from which only the Gospel could save them.

Genesis speaks of the "sin" of Sodom and Gomorrah being great. (Before they are destroyed)

This is irrefutable. You have presenting a misread of Romans 5:13 totally out of context.


The condemnation of the law has past and future application, just as the sacrifice of Christ has past and future application:
.

Hello Bob.
John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.

You need to explain what Jesus said, Bob, how can they have an excuse for their sin?
 
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Do you really think that God could not "act or speak" before Sinai?
So you reject even the Gospel of John. Nothing we didn't already know.
Gal 3:8 "the GOSPEL was preached to Abraham"
John 8 "Abraham SAW My day and was glad".

Exegesis - what a concept here. Moses is writing BOTH Genesis and Exodus and Lev... he tells his readers that Abraham had God's LAWs and commandments. What did his readers think that meant given that they could read what Moses wrote about those terms in both Exodus and Leviticus??
Your argument seems to be that God did not say or do anything before writing His Law at Sinai...
Quoting you, I see. Jesus didn't come before Sinai. The law was given till the "Seed" came.
 
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A total misread of Romans 5. Scripture shows Adam and Eve condemned in Genesis 3 due to sin.
Romans 5 affirms their condemnation to the point of death - in fact that 2nd death of Rev 20 ... from which only the Gospel could save them.

Genesis speaks of the "sin" of Sodom and Gomorrah being great. (Before they are destroyed)

This is irrefutable. You have presenting a misread of Romans 5:13 totally out of context.
Paul must've lied in Romans 5:13. You certainly reject it as true.
 
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Doveaman

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Hi Doveaman,

How are you today? Good I hope?

You are saying my posts are confusing to you in regards to Col 2 because I have not described the difference between "Holy days and Sabbath(s) referred to in Col 2:16?
Yes.
My posts are not confusing at all. because if you read my first post 325 these have already been described here. So maybe the confusion is on your side because you did not read the post.
Of course the confusion is on my side. The confusion is on my side because your posts are causing the confusion on my side.
I am also wondering why you are making straw man arguments to Bob Ryan? Who has ever said to you that we are saved by keeping the Law? If no one has said this then why bring it up?
I have no idea what you are talking about here. Where did I accuse Bob Ryan of being saved by keeping the law?

I think you are the one who is confused and creating your own straw man.
I hope this clears up your confusion.
No, it does not.
Here let me cut and paste it again for you.

Holy days

The word rendered "holy-day" - ἑορτὴ heortē - in the Greek means a "feast" or "festival;"
I agree.
Sabbath(s)

It is interesting to note in the Old Testament the word Sabbath (shabbath 7676 from shabath 7673 meaning “rest”) is not only used for the weekly Sabbath but is also applied to the first and last days of the annual Jewish Festivals.
So?
The Greek word for sabbath used G4521; σάββατο; sabbaton which means to cease from secular labor, stop work, rest and does not need to apply to the 7th Day only but any day that God says not to work on.
It may not apply to the 7th Day only, but it does apply to the 7th Day too, right?
These days of ceasing from work in Lev chapter 23 are referred to as Holy convocations and no work was allowed on these days.
And herein lies the confusion.

You already told me that the "holy day" is referring to the annual "feast" or "festival" days. And now you are telling me that the "sabbath days" are referring to the Holy convocations, which are the same as the annual "feast" or "festival" days:

"These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times." (Leviticus 23:4).

You are trying to make it seem like the "feast" or "festival" days are different from the Holy convocations, when in fact the Bible tells us they are both the same days.

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16).

Paul is saying "Let no man therefore judge you...in respect of an holyday...or of the sabbath days". Paul is making a clear distinction between the two by using the term "or", clearly showing that they are not the same days.
High Sabbaths, in most Christian and Messianic Jewish usage, are seven annual Biblical festivals and rest days, recorded in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy.This is an extension of the term "high day" found in the King James Version at John 19:31-42. The seven festivals do not necessarily occur on weekly Shabbat (seventh-day Sabbath) and are called by the name miqra ("called assembly") in Hebrew (Lev. 23). They are observed by Jews and a minority of Christians. Three of them occur in spring: the first and seventh days of Pesach (Passover), and Shavuot (Pentecost) which occurs in summer. Three occur in fall, in the seventh month, and are also called shabbaton: Rosh Hashanah (Trumpets); Yom Kippur, the "Sabbath of Sabbaths" (Atonement); and the first and eighth days of Sukkoth (Tabernacles). Sometimes the word shabbaton is extended to mean all seven festivals. The Gospel of John says of the night immediately following Christ's burial that "that sabbath day was a high day" (19:31-42). That night was Nisan 15, just after the first day of Passover week (Unleavened Bread) and an annual miqra and rest day, in most chronologies. (In other systems, it was Nisan 14, i.e., weekly but not annual Sabbath.) The King James Version may thus be the origin of naming the annual rest days "High Sabbaths" in English (source: wiki).
That's correct, the "High Sabbaths" or "high day" is referring to the seven annual "feast/festival" or "Holy convocations". All of these days are what Colossians 2 call "an holy day".

So far you are only describing the "holy day" in Colossians 2, but you have not properly explained what the "sabbath days" in Colossians 2 are. You have only created a convoluted explanation of the "sabbath days" in Colossians 2 that makes no sense at all.

If the "holyday" and "sabbath days" in Colossians 2 are both the same annual feast/festivals or Holy convocations, then why would Paul make such a clear distinction between the two?
 
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Doveaman

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Absolutely not! What I have presented above is consistent with everything I have presented unless you are confirming now that “If you love God you will Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy like God asks you to”? Maybe you missed that section in the post I do not know. I have only ever shared that it is only through the Spirit of LOVE that God fulfils His Laws in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Rom 8:1-9; Eze 36:26-27; Heb 8:10-12).
And that's my point.

The fulfillment of God's law is not the 10 commandments, because love is the fulfillment of the law: “Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

Love accomplishes the true intent of God's eternal law. The 10 commandments is a shadow/reflection of the law, but love is the true reality of God's law. This is why love is the fulfillment of the law.

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts -- (Romans 2:14-15).

Can you explain how Gentiles, who do not have the law of 10 commandments, are able to obey the requirements of the law, even though they do not have the 10 commandments?
This is the New Covenant and is consistent with every post I have written. If we are knowingly and wilfully breaking any of God’s Laws including God’s 7th Day Sabbath we are sinning against God. Sin is the transgression of God’s Law and God’s Word tells us that if we continue in sin the wages of sin is death (1John 3:4; Rom 6:23).
It was not a sin for the Levite priests in the Jewish temple to violate the 7th day Sabbath.

Jesus said: "Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?'' (Matthew 12:5).

The priests working in the Jewish temple desecrated the Sabbath day by working on the Sabbath day in the temple, and yet they were innocent of sin.

It was not a sin for the priests to violate the Sabbath day by working in the temple. This was because the work in the Jewish temple was superior to the rest on the Jewish sabbath.

We Christians who now work as spiritual priests in the temple of Christ's body may also desecrate the Sabbath day and be innocent of sin, just as the Levite priests were:

"Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? Yet I say to you that One greater than the temple is here.'' (Matthew 12:5-6).
 
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Doveaman

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A total misread of Romans 5. Scripture shows Adam and Eve condemned in Genesis 3 due to sin.
Romans 5 affirms their condemnation to the point of death - in fact that 2nd death of Rev 20 ... from which only the Gospel could save them.

Genesis speaks of the "sin" of Sodom and Gomorrah being great. (Before they are destroyed)

This is irrefutable. You have presenting a misread of Romans 5:13 totally out of context.
The condemnation of the law has backward and forward application, just as the sacrifice of Christ has backward and forward application.

"Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." -- (Romans 5:18)

It is the law that condemns all men, past and future:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God." (Romans 3:19-20).
John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.
I'm not sure why you included these quotes in your reply, but they actually confirm my point.

If Christ had not spoken to them they would not have sin.

If sin is a transgression of the 10 commandments, then Christ's statement would have been wrong since the 10 commandments would have been transgressed before Christ had spoken to them.
 
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klutedavid

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The law was 'written' - came in "written form" at Sinai.

How is that confusing??
Hello Bob.

Genesis 26:5
Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.

Galatians 3:17
What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

Do you believe that Abraham had all the 613 laws, that Israel had received at Mt Sinai?
 
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klutedavid

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The law was 'written' - came in "written form" at Sinai.

How is that confusing??
Hello Bob.

John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.

You need to explain what Jesus said, Bob, how can they have an excuse for their sin?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Hi Doveaman,

Hope you are doing well.
Yes. Of course the confusion is on my side. You already told me that the "holy day" is referring to the annual "feast" or "festival" days. And now you are telling me that the "sabbath days" are referring to the Holy convocations, which are the same as the annual "feast" or "festival" days
No friend, actually I am not telling you what you have stated above. You are separating the English word "Holyday" which is one word used in Col 2:16 into two English words Holy and day. This maybe where you are confused as it is not referring to a day (singular) and it is something I have never said.
The correct English word used in Col 2:16 is one word Holyday ἑορτή heh-or-tay' it is not referring to a day (singular) it is referring to a feast or festival (not a day)

This is the within context of Col 2:16 as stated already to show what Paul is referring to. He is talking about the Jewish annual festivals. Continuing within the verse; and in relation to the Jewish annual festivals; it is the New Moons and Sabbath(s) within a "Jewish Festival" that were Holy convocations that no work was allowed within the annual festivals. These could fall on any day of the week and do not represent God's 7th Day Sabbath. These were the Sabbaton that are being referred to in Col 2:16 because the annual feast all pointed to Jesus and were a shadow of things to come. Trying to separate Holy and day as you have started above is something I have never said and may be the cause of your confusion.

My post is simply saying what it says;

1. Holy Days; In the Greek the Word Holy Day is referring to the annual festivals for Col 2:16's use of the word Holy Days. So the reference and context of Col Chapter 2 is referring to a discussion by Paul in relation to the Jewish annual Festivals. The word Holyday does not mean a day it means a whole festival . This was already explained however in post 325 here so I am still not sure why you are confused at all unless you are making up your confusion because you do not want to see it.

2. Sabbath(s) (multiple Sabbaths) in the Greek of Col 2:16's is "Sabbaton" literally means cease from work. It does not have to refer to the weekly 7th Day Sabbath commandment. The days in Leviticus Chapter 23 referred to as Holy Convocations are not the same as Holyday referred to in Col 2:16 above as the meaning there already shown is simply a feast of festival. Sabbaton Col 2:16-17 is referring to the Jewish festival days of Holy convocation and ceasing from work. A Holy convocation are certain days within the Jewish festivals that were set aside for no work in relation to certain festivals. These could be any day of the week in relation to each of the annual Jewish festivals (these also included the New Moon Sabbaths which could also occur on any day of the week. The above were not referring to God's 4th commandment the 7th Day weekly Sabbath)
That's correct, the "High Sabbaths" or "high day" is referring to the seven annual "feast/festival" or "Holy convocations". All of these days are what Colossians 2 call "an holy day".
Actually if you read my post 325 the "High Sabbath" is not referring to the seven annual feast/festivals. It is referring to a time when a Holy convocation day from an annual Jewish feast falls on the same day as the 7th Day weekly Sabbath of God's commandment. Once again as shown above these days are not the Holy day referred to in Col 2:16. Holyday (one word) just refers to the Jewish feast/festivals not specific days within the annual festival.

Hope this help you with your confusion

In Christ!
 
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LoveGodsWord

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And that's my point. The fulfillment of God's law is not the 10 commandments, because love is the fulfillment of the law: “Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10). Love accomplishes the true intent of God's eternal law. The 10 commandments is a shadow/reflection of the law, but love is the true reality of God's law. This is why love is the fulfillment of the law.

Absolutely! Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit this is the New Covenant of God writing his Laws in our heart (Rom 8:1-4; Rom 13:9-19; Heb 8:10-12) :oldthumbsup: But on the other hand it is not an excuse to break God's Law. If you are breaking God's Law (10 commandments) you have neither seen him or known him because Jesus only gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him.

1 John 2:4,
He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

If anyone is knowingly and willfully breaking God's 7th Day Sabbath or any of the 10 commandments you are not obeying God. If you are not obeying God you do not know him and you do not have the Holy Spirit.

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15). Can you explain how Gentiles, who do not have the law of 10 commandments, are able to obey the requirements of the law, even though they do not have the 10 commandments?

The context of Romans 2:14-15 in Romans 2 is about the Judgement and that all are accountable to God both Jews and Gentiles and there is no difference in God's eyes.


Rom 2:12-13,
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The context of Roman 2 is to the Jewish believers who were judging Gentile believers in relation to the laws of Moses (Rom 2:1-4). The next verses are referring to all man are equal in God's sight and all will be judged by God whether they know God's Law or not. "As many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Rom 5-13).

The context of Romans 2:14-15 is in not judging the Gentile believers if they have God's Law written on their heart (Romans 2:14-15) even though they were never Israelite's that were given God's Law.

This does not say that God's Law (10 commandments) have gone. Only that they are written in the heart of the believer. If anyone is knowingly and willfully breaking God's 7th Day Sabbath or any of the 10 commandments you are not obeying God. If you are not obeying God you do not know him and you do not have the Holy Spirit. (1 John 2:4; Acts 5:32)

We Christians who now work as spiritual priests in the temple of Christ's body may also desecrate the Sabbath day and be innocent of sin, just as the Levite priests were:

There is not one bible verse that support your theory here that Christians can break God's Sabbath. On the other hand 1 John 3:4 informs us of what we should already be aware of, which is that sin is transgression of the law. The wages of known willful sin is death (Rom 6:23). Jesus is teaching that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath not break it (Mark 3:1-5)

Hope this is helpful,

In Christ!

 
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stuart lawrence

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Absolutely! Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit this is the New Covenant of God writing his Laws in our heart (Rom 8:1-4; Rom 13:9-19; Heb 8:10-12) :oldthumbsup: But on the other hand it is not an excuse to break God's Law. If you are breaking God's Law (10 commandments) you have neither seen him or known him because Jesus only gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him.

1 John 2:4,
He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

If anyone is knowingly and willfully breaking God's 7th Day Sabbath or any of the 10 commandments you are not obeying God. If you are not obeying God you do not know him and you do not have the Holy Spirit.



The context of Romans 2:14-15 in Romans 2 is about the Judgement and that all are accountable to God both Jews and Gentiles and there is no difference in God's eyes.


Rom 2:12-13,
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The context of Roman 2 is to the Jewish believers who were judging Gentile believers in relation to the laws of Moses (Rom 2:1-4). The next verses are referring to all man are equal in God's sight and all will be judged by God whether they know God's Law or not. "As many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Rom 5-13).

The context of Romans 2:14-15 is in not judging the Gentile believers if they have God's Law written on their heart (Romans 2:14-15) even though they were never Israelite's that were given God's Law.

This does not say that God's Law (10 commandments) have gone. Only that they are written in the heart of the believer. If anyone is knowingly and willfully breaking God's 7th Day Sabbath or any of the 10 commandments you are not obeying God. If you are not obeying God you do not know him and you do not have the Holy Spirit. (1 John 2:4; Acts 5:32)



There is not one bible verse that support your theory here that Christians can break God's Sabbath. On the other hand 1 John 3:4 informs us of what we should already be aware of, which is that sin is transgression of the law. The wages of known willful sin is death (Rom 6:23). Jesus is teaching that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath not break it (Mark 3:1-5)

Hope this is helpful,

In Christ!
Except of course the SDA church does ( somehow) accept as Christians people who are fully aware the biblical seventh day was a Saturday yet don't observe a set Saturday sabbath. So your own church disagrees with your conclusions:)
 
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1stcenturylady

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He that says he knows Jesus and does not keep His commandments is liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).

When you quote 1 John you should take into account the "commandments" John is talking about. Are they OT commandments, or NT commandments. Of course, they are of the New Covenant. And 1 John 3 tells you what they are.

23: 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave use commandment.

The Sabbath was Old Covenant. Jesus has given us rest.
 
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stuart lawrence

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When you quote 1 John you should take into account the "commandments" John is talking about. Are they OT commandments, or NT commandments. Of course, they are of the New Covenant. And 1 John 3 tells you what they are.

23: 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave use commandment.

The Sabbath was Old Covenant. Jesus has given us rest.
Yep, there is not one verse of scripture, once the NC is in operation that states the words:
You must obey the TC
Neither is there any verse that states:
You must observe a set Saturday sabbath
 
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Yep, there is not one verse of scripture, once the NC is in operation that states the words:
You must obey the TC
Neither is there any verse that states:
You must observe a set Saturday sabbath

Yes, the word "commandments" is written often in the epistles, but doesn't refer to the Ten Commandments, except to say in Galatians 4 that the covenant (the ten commandments Ex. 34:28) given on Mt. Sinai represented the bondswoman, Hagar, and should be "cast out." Even Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14, that his words are the commandments of the Lord.

37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant
 
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