Dispensationalist Only The Jews and Election

Biblewriter said:

You reacted emotionally to my post without even considering what it said. Although I did indeed insist that the words "all Israel shall be saved" will be literally fulfilled, I also, end very clearly said, "But that will only be after Ezekiel20:33-38."

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DeaconDean said:

Has that not already happened?

History dictates that it did beginning in 1947.

After WWII, Jews began flocking back home by the thousands, thousands!

So I say, prophesy fulfilled (May 1947).

But, we are drifting way from the subject.

Scripture indeed does teach the "election" of the Jews.

And regarding the last nine chapters of Eze., I ask again, did God ever make any conditional promises?

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Biblewriter said:

The passage in question says:

33 "As I live," says the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD.
37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD." Ezekiel 20:33-38

Although some of the Jews indeed began to to return to their ancient homeland in 1947, nothing that happened at that time, or at any time since that time, even resembles the purging that is so very clearly stated in this prophecy. For it clearly says of those so purged, that "I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel." To even pretend that anything even slightly resembling this has ever happened, is utter nonsense.

And the rebels have most certainly NOT been purged from their midst, even up to this present time. So this prophecy has most certainly NOT been fulfilled, even partially.

Isaiah 66:15-21 makes it very clear that the return spoken of here will take place AFTER Messiah returns, not before.

15 For behold, the LORD will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by His sword The LORD will judge all flesh; And the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says the LORD. 18 "For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites," says the LORD. Isaiah 66:15-21

This promise is most certainly NOT conditional. But to return to your question, the ONLY conditional promise in the entire last nine chapters of Ezekiel is: "Now let them put their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far away from Me, and I will dwell in their midst forever." (Ezekiel 43:9)

This promise was indeed conditional, but the condition had nothing to do with the fulfillment of everything else in these nine chapters. it had to do with how long the God of Israel would dwell in their midst. If they "put their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far away from" God, then He would "dwell in their midst forever."

But this condition on the perpetuity of God's dwelling with them, had nothing to do with the promise of their re-establishment in the land. That was promised unconditionally, not only in these nine chapters, but in many other places as well.

Two other unconditional promises made to this rebellious people were their eventual repentance, as described in Zechariah 12:10-14, (see below) and the fact that they will all be holy. Not some of them, all of them.
3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. Isaiah 4:3


10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14

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DeaconDean said:

Like I said, the prophesies concerning Israel and them returning home, was fulfilled May 1947, and to this day, they still continue to go back.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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Biblewriter said:

And this does not even approximately fit Ezekiel 20:33-38. That passage was about God bringing them back, not about some of them returning of their own free will. But that is a detail. The significant difference is that the passage in question is not about their return, but about what will happen when they are brought back.

The passage opens with the Lord's ruling over them "with an outstretched are, and with fury poured out." Then it says He will "gather" them, again "with an outstretched are, and with fury poured out." So tell me, what sign of God's overt action was present in that return? and what sign of his fury against them was manifested at that time?

Then it very explicitly says that at that time He "Plead my case with you face to face." And goes on to specify that He would do it "just as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness in the land of Egypt." So when did God appear before the returning masses?

Finally, it says that He would "purge out the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me." And, concerning those so purged, it explicitly says that He "will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel." If this has even begun to happen, why are there still so very many rebels in their midst?

And finally, the return that has already occurred, is only a return of a relatively small fraction of the Jews. But many today have forgotten that the word Jew only means a descendant of a member of the ancient southern kingdom, composed of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin, with part of the tribe of Levi.

But the prophesied return is a return of all Israel, not just the Jews. That is, it is a return of all the descendants of all twelve tribes. And it is a return of all of them, not some of them. And Isaiah 66 makes it very clear that this return will take place after Messiah returns, not before.

Many Biblical prophecies speak of Judah being in the land during the end times period. Since they had been cast out of that land almost two thousand years ago, Students of Bible prophecy have long known they would return. (And by long I mean for at least four hundred years, that is, long before Dispensationalism was supposedly "invented.") This return, which actually began before 1947, was necessary for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. But it was never prophesied at all. It was just necessary for Bible prophecy to be able to be fulfilled.

All the prophecies about the end times return, call the returning people Israel, not Judah. And they very explicitly say that this will be all Israel, not a small part of it. And Isaiah 66 makes it clear that this return will take place after messiah returns, not before He returns.

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Biblewriter said:

The passage in question says:

33 "As I live," says the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD.
37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD." Ezekiel 20:33-38

Although some of the Jews indeed began to to return to their ancient homeland in 1947, nothing that happened at that time, or at any time since that time, even resembles the purging that is so very clearly stated in this prophecy. For it clearly says of those so purged, that "I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel." To even pretend that anything even slightly resembling this has ever happened, is utter nonsense.

And the rebels have most certainly NOT been purged from their midst, even up to this present time. So this prophecy has most certainly NOT been fulfilled, even partially.

Isaiah 66:15-21 makes it very clear that the return spoken of here will take place AFTER Messiah returns, not before.

15 For behold, the LORD will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by His sword The LORD will judge all flesh; And the slain of the LORD shall be many. 17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says the LORD. 18 "For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. 19 I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. 20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites," says the LORD. Isaiah 66:15-21

This promise is most certainly NOT conditional. But to return to your question, the ONLY conditional promise in the entire last nine chapters of Ezekiel is: "Now let them put their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far away from Me, and I will dwell in their midst forever." (Ezekiel 43:9)

This promise was indeed conditional, but the condition had nothing to do with the fulfillment of everything else in these nine chapters. it had to do with how long the God of Israel would dwell in their midst. If they "put their harlotry and the carcasses of their kings far away from" God, then He would "dwell in their midst forever."

But this condition on the perpetuity of God's dwelling with them, had nothing to do with the promise of their re-establishment in the land. That was promised unconditionally, not only in these nine chapters, but in many other places as well.

Two other unconditional promises made to this rebellious people were their eventual repentance, as described in Zechariah 12:10-14, (see below) and the fact that they will all be holy. Not some of them, all of them.
3 And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. Isaiah 4:3


10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14

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Biblewriter said:

And this does not even approximately fit Ezekiel 20:33-38. That passage was about God bringing them back, not about some of them returning of their own free will. But that is a detail. The significant difference is that the passage in question is not about their return, but about what will happen when they are brought back.

The passage opens with the Lord's ruling over them "with an outstretched are, and with fury poured out." Then it says He will "gather" them, again "with an outstretched are, and with fury poured out." The return starting in 1947 was not even approximately like this. Nor has the Lord's fury been, even yet, poured out on them.

Then is very explicitly says that at that time He "Plead my case with you face to face." And goes on to specify that He would do it "just as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness in the land of Egypt." This has very obviously not happened.

Finally, it says that He would "purge out the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me." And, concerning those so purged, it explicitly says that He "will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel." Nothing even approximately like this has happened.

So to even pretend that a voluntary return of a very small fraction of that great nation, which is currently scattered all over the world, even begins fulfill this passage about their judgment, is utter nonsense.

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ToBeLoved said:

What purging. Who do you expect to be purged and what is goiter to happen

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ToBeLoved said:

You don't think Israel is in turmoil and has been?

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Biblewriter said:

Go back to what the Holy Spirit explicitly said:

33 "As I live," says the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD. 37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 20:33-38, NKJV rendition

There is no way to rationally even pretend that anything even approximately like this has ever happened.

Has the Lord brought Israel "out from the peoples ," and gathered them "out of the countries" where they were are scattered, "with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out"? The answer is plainly, no.

Has the lord brought Israel "into the wilderness," and there plead with them "face to face"? The answer is plainly, no.

Has the Lord purged "the rebels from among" Israel, "those who transgress against" Himself? The answer is plainly, no.

And have the ones so purgef "from among" Israel been brought "out of the country where they dwell, but" not allowed to "enter the land of Israel"? Again, the answer is plainly no.

The ONLY thing that has happened is that a very small fraction of this nation has returned i=on their own volition. And being back there, they are in great affliction and distress. And that Is ALL that has happened.

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ToBeLoved said:

Just because God has not physically picked up a people and physically moved them does not mean it is not His will or happening by His hand. Maybe you should go back and read much of the Old Testament.

God said He would give them the promised land, but in reality they had to fight war after war under Joshua to get it.

So in your translation, then maybe God never gave Israel, Israel in the first place since they spent 20 years in war to get it instead of God just causing the enemies to give up the goods.

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