Are babies unrighteousness?

RDKirk

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In order for an infant to be a sinner requires that it have language and cognitive skills to understand God's word, God's law, understand what faith is, understand what is righteous and unrighteous and infants cannot possible have this type of understanding the bible requires for one to be accountable to God.

You posted "A child will disobey as soon as he learns the meaning of "do not."" If this were the case, then you are describing what a child BECOMES not how it was when it was born.

Man is not born with a nature that forces him to sin against his will. Such an idea makes man a victim of sin and not responsible for his sin. Man is responsible for his sins for he chooses of his own will to sin.

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
 
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Friend-of-Jesus

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romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

The author probably spoke of fully grown-up adults. At his day and age, only a handful of people could read. His epistle was not addressed to newborns or foetuses in the womb. Everything the author says is talking about his audience, which is the adult inhabitants of the location where the letter was sent to.
 
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devin553344

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Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

I don't believe that. I think you're born "into" sin. Not born a sinner. Do you have scripture that says that? What I mean by that is for example, there are some monkeys that eat other monkeys, and that's an evil act. But babies monkeys don't eat other monkeys, they either are taught the evil or it is instinctual, hungry and tempted to commit the sin. If monkeys could sin? They're born into a body of flesh that has needs and is instinctual, but that doesn't mean it will give into temptation always.

a babies brain is still developing and therefore the child is more instinctual until intellectual, and requires upbringing from Good Christians. Or they may be raised into a sinful culture. Like cannibals?

And furthermore, if your not a cannibal, then you chose not to commit that sin, and I find that your not born a total sinner at all, but get to choose your sins.
 
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JoeP222w

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romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

It means what it says, there are no God seekers. Everyone, everyone, is conceived in sin, with a sin nature. It is not hyperbole, there is no reason to think it is.
 
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JoeP222w

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Nay,this is indeed the correct scripture but not fitted to your "subject" a child that is not born or likewise a child that dies before an age of sin accountability,is therefore "Welcomed by God into heaven with open arms" for the child has no parent in essence as well as that the child can hardly do a willful sin,according to of course your lifespan given of the child,it's the same as asking was Jesus unrighteous,because a child being born into sin only means the child is "capable" of sin,but not held accountable nor considered unrighteous,this is why despite popular"doctrine" babies have no need to be baptized or sprinkled for they have not "known"'sin,therefore they Are Righteous it is when they have lived enough to account for sin that they have a need of any form of baptism(including baptism of the holy spirit)your quote of scripture is "True" but you have yet to "allow"the holy spirit to guide you to answers,anyone can quote scripture yet not grasp what it "truly" means as with this scripture you quoted,when it is stated,"there is none righteous no not one" the scripture is referring to everyone who is born into sin and are "able" to account for their sin once past the time of "innocence" in their lives,I encourage you to seek out the holy spirit for answers when reading the bible,and "let" him teach you,using one's own knowledge concerning God's word particularly is when we all confound ourselves because to read God's word you must read it in a"spiritual" instead of a "natural" sense,it's not like a normal book or newspaper that you just read it and understand it,it takes time and willingness to learn even a portion of it.

I have found not one verse in the Bible that support an age of accountability. Moreover, following your logic, Christians should be the greatest supporters of abortion, since it is the greatest Heaven filling method. That, of course, is complete nonsense.
 
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devin553344

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I have found not one verse in the Bible that support an age of accountability. Moreover, following your logic, Christians should be the greatest supporters of abortion, since it is the greatest Heaven filling method. That, of course, is complete nonsense.

Your abortion concept is of course evil since it's killing in many cases? and therefore void of Christianity.
 
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ReasonwithMe

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I may disagree here but I do get the reference and meaning of what Paul is saying to the attendees. If you read the Bible from cover to cover, God seems to be quick to blood shed and anger. Take the eating of the apple for example or the mass world flood. There seem to be action before forgiveness.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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a babies brain is still developing and therefore the child is more instinctual until intellectual, and requires upbringing from Good Christians. Or they may be raised into a sinful culture. Like cannibals?

It's just a question of nature versus nurture. What I would ask you, from your position, is what age will that baby be in Heaven? Either it remains a slobbering immature baby, or it becomes an adult with the mind of a baby, or it becomes an adult with the mind of an adult. If it gets the mind of an adult, then one wonders which kind of mind it will have, but more importantly why it will have that kind of mind. Your position favors nurture over nature, but if the child goes straight to adulthood at the resurrection, then there is no nurture. If the child grows into adulthood in Heaven, then it gets an unfair advantage over the poor souls like us who had to develop in a corrupt world. Also, if it does grow up in Heaven, then it is assumed to turn out well simply because it grew up in Heaven, with no opportunity to do otherwise.

An acorn is a tree, even though it doesn't look like one yet.
 
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Small Fish

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romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.
First define righteous. We are justified by faith. How could a baby have faith?
Furthermore we are all born in sin, came to the world speaking lies.

He is talking about our human nature which incidentally, a baby has the same even though not expressed yet. However, this does not mean babies go to hell when they die. And going to heaven will not be on their own merits but merely because Christ died to save the world, and them not being on the age of accountability yet. But Christ is the One Who made the way. We are accountable for our sins and can and should repent of our sins.
 
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JoeP222w

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Your abortion concept is of course evil since it's killing and therefore void of Christianity.

That is exactly my point to demonstrate that the Bible does not say that babies are born without sin.

Conceived in innocence and/or age of accountability are not Biblical concepts.
 
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devin553344

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It's just a question of nature versus nurture. What I would ask you, from your position, is what age will that baby be in Heaven? Either it remains a slobbering immature baby, or it becomes an adult with the mind of a baby, or it becomes an adult with the mind of an adult. If it gets the mind of an adult, then one wonders which kind of mind it will have, but more importantly why it will have that kind of mind. Your position favors nurture over nature, but if the child goes straight to adulthood at the resurrection, then there is no nurture. If the child grows into adulthood in Heaven, then it gets an unfair advantage over the poor souls like us who had to develop in a corrupt world. Also, if it does grow up in Heaven, then it is assumed to turn out well simply because it grew up in Heaven, with no opportunity to do otherwise.

An acorn is a tree, even though it doesn't look like one yet.

You can't get an acorn from an acorn, therefore it's not a tree. I see most of your point, except that God will be the judge, especially in the case of the infants, whom man lacks to be able to judge even in a court of law. The wisest of men lack judgment against youth, then why would you say that God would judge them? Remember courts are filled with wise and also jury? Just something to think about.
 
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JoeP222w

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God seems to be quick to blood shed and anger.

No idea how you derived that from scripture, because you did not get that from proper exegesis of the text.

Exodus 34:6-7 The LORD passed before him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, (7) keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Numbers 14:18 'The LORD is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.'

Nehemiah 9:17-19 They refused to obey and were not mindful of the wonders that you performed among them, but they stiffened their neck and appointed a leader to return to their slavery in Egypt. But you are a God ready to forgive, gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and did not forsake them. (18) Even when they had made for themselves a golden calf and said, 'This is your God who brought you up out of Egypt,' and had committed great blasphemies, (19) you in your great mercies did not forsake them in the wilderness. The pillar of cloud to lead them in the way did not depart from them by day, nor the pillar of fire by night to light for them the way by which they should go.

Psalms 86:15 But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

Psalms 103:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.

Psalms 145:8 The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.

Joel 2:13 and rend your hearts and not your garments." Return to the LORD your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

Jonah 4:2 And he prayed to the LORD and said, "O LORD, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster.

Nahum 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

There seem to be action before forgiveness.

Then I would encourage you to go back and study the scripture again.
 
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JoeP222w

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is that it's difficult for people to reconcile with God's commands to kill every woman, man, child and unborn. That doesn't paint a picture for us that God is pro life

Ripping a verse out of context, does not the truth make.
 
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devin553344

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That is exactly my point to demonstrate that the Bible does not say that babies are born without sin.

Conceived in innocence and/or age of accountability are not Biblical concepts.

Let me ask you this then, what sin are you accusing babies of? Because I don't see them sinning, and if you know what their thinking or feeling please let me know?
 
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Jamminontha1

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romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

No one is righteous meaning that we are all born with a sinful nature. Sooner or later, we will sin. But sin is an act that must be repented.

Babies know what they are doing is wrong, but they don't know that it is a sin that needs to be repented of unless it's told to them. If a baby has the capacity to lie, they have the capacity to repent. If it's a 5 month fetus, what can it possibly do to sin?
 
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JoeP222w

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Let me ask you this then, what sin are you accusing babies of? Because I don't see them sinning, and if you know what their thinking or feeling please let me know?

I never claimed that I was omniscient. I know their sins no more than I know yours or anyone. But they are conceived and born with an Adamic nature (inherently sinful, not inherently good), because that is what the word of God says.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

And if babies are conceived/born without sin, then they would have no reason to die.


Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

I see no exceptions mentioned in those 2 verses above.


Romans 9:13-23 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
 
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devin553344

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No one is righteous meaning that we are all born with a sinful nature. Sooner or later, we will sin. But sin is an act that must be repented.

Babies know what they are doing is wrong, but they don't know that it is a sin that needs to be repented of unless it's told to them. If a baby has the capacity to lie, they have the capacity to repent. If it's a 5 month fetus, what can it possibly do to sin?

The Holy Ghost and Spirit of Truth work thru witnessing, so that sounds correct to me. And I can remember similar from my childhood.
 
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devin553344

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I never claimed that I was omniscient. I know their sins no more than I know yours or anyone. But they are conceived and born with an Adamic nature (inherently sinful, not inherently good), because that is what the word of God says.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

And if babies are conceived/born without sin, then they would have no reason to die.


Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

I see no exceptions mentioned in those 2 verses above.


Romans 9:13-23 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

I don't see in those scriptures what you see. It is strange that we both read it and see something different, and I think that's what I'm seeing from the posts. I think my heart feels good in what I see though. I judge not the little ones. Therefore I don't say they are sinning.

[edit] BTW, I don't understand the point of your scriptural view, if you can't judge the babies even as you have witnessed. Why is God even saying what "you think" he's saying? Your not a baby and babies aren't going to understand the scripture?
 
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