Colossians 1: Preexistence or Preeminence?

Peter1000 said:

You can read about YHWH and Israel coming out of Egypt in 1 Corinthians. Here is what Paul says:
1 Corinthians 10:1-9
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them (ancient Israel) also tempted (Christ), and were destroyed of serpents.
(my parenthesis)

As you can see, Paul tells us that YHWH and Christ (Jesus) are the same person. Christ was ancient Israels rock. Christ was Paul's rock.

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Paul said no such thing. Israel's rock was Father YHWH. To understand 1 Corinthians 10:1-9 you must first understand Exodus 17:6;

1 Corinthians 10:4 is figuratively making reference to Exodus 17:6 which is a shadow of Messiah. To "smite the rock" is to kill the Messiah. The rock could not yield water until it was smitten. Similarly, Messiah Yeshua could not give forth "rivers of living water" until he was put to death and then resurrected unto eternal life (glorified). John 7:39 shows this "living water" to be the Holy Spirit. Yeshua was not physically present with them in the wilderness. Spiritually speaking he was. That is why the verse says "spiritual drink" and "spiritual Rock." Even if one were to believe Yeshua physically followed Israel, that would not prove he was YHWH since YHWH was not personally leading or following Israel in the wilderness. Scriptures reveal that the Angel of YHWH, YHWH's representative, followed them (Exodus 14:19). The word "them" is not in the Greek text. I believe Paul was referring to Messiah following in time, not literally.

Also, shared titles do not make two beings the same being. Cyrus was called YHWH's "maschiah/anointed", but he was obviously not Yeshua. Paul said there are many lords and many gods. There are also many fathers and many shepherds. These shared titles do not make those who share them the same beings.

Paul said let us not tempt Christ, as ancient Israel tempted Christ.

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Paul said no such thing. You erroneously added the word (Christ) in parenthesis. When Paul said, "Neither let us tempt Christ," he was literally referring to Yeshua whom we should not tempt today in the same way that Israel tempted Father YHWH back then. Israel did NOT tempt Messiah Yeshua. They tempted Father YHWH who eventually sent Messiah Yeshua to atone for the sins of Israel.

I believe Paul, I believe our leaders today that tell us that Jesus Christ himself has told them that he is YHWH, the God of the OT, and the incarnated Jesus Christ of the NT, the firstborn spirit Son of God/Elohim, the only begotten Son in the flesh of God/Elohim.

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You misunderstand Paul as do your leaders today. If Yeshua is the God/Elohim of the OT, then please explain the following passages.

It is clear that YHWH, the God of the OT, glorified His Son, a totally separate and distinct being from Himself. The Gospel we are to preach is summarized in John 3:16;

The Gospel is NOT;

gadar perets said:

Paul said no such thing. Israel's rock was Father YHWH. To understand 1 Corinthians 10:1-9 you must first understand Exodus 17:6;

"Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel."
​

1 Corinthians 10:4 is figuratively making reference to Exodus 17:6 which is a shadow of Messiah. To "smite the rock" is to kill the Messiah. The rock could not yield water until it was smitten. Similarly, Messiah Yeshua could not give forth "rivers of living water" until he was put to death and then resurrected unto eternal life (glorified). John 7:39 shows this "living water" to be the Holy Spirit. Yeshua was not physically present with them in the wilderness. Spiritually speaking he was. That is why the verse says "spiritual drink" and "spiritual Rock." Even if one were to believe Yeshua physically followed Israel, that would not prove he was YHWH since YHWH was not personally leading or following Israel in the wilderness. Scriptures reveal that the Angel of YHWH, YHWH's representative, followed them (Exodus 14:19). The word "them" is not in the Greek text. I believe Paul was referring to Messiah following in time, not literally.

Also, shared titles do not make two beings the same being. Cyrus was called YHWH's "maschiah/anointed", but he was obviously not Yeshua. Paul said there are many lords and many gods. There are also many fathers and many shepherds. These shared titles do not make those who share them the same beings.


Paul said no such thing. You erroneously added the word (Christ) in parenthesis. When Paul said, "Neither let us tempt Christ," he was literally referring to Yeshua whom we should not tempt today in the same way that Israel tempted Father YHWH back then. Israel did NOT tempt Messiah Yeshua. They tempted Father YHWH who eventually sent Messiah Yeshua to atone for the sins of Israel.


You misunderstand Paul as do your leaders today. If Yeshua is the God/Elohim of the OT, then please explain the following passages.

Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Exodus 3:16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His Son Yeshua; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
​

It is clear that YHWH, the God of the OT, glorified His Son, a totally separate and distinct being from Himself. The Gospel we are to preach is summarized in John 3:16;

For God (Father YHWH) so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(Parenthesis mine).
​

The Gospel is NOT;

For God so loved the world, that He gave Himself, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

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I think you are missing the idea of agent; Mal 1 is a good passage.

Yahweh is speaking to the apostate Jewish priest who are bring polluted offerings to Yahweh's alter. El is the supreme God and El is the word being used here . Yahweh is mimicking Israel's plea

"9 And now, I pray you, beseech El that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the Lord of hosts."

The answer is no, he won't.

I am come in my Father’s name" John 5

Yahweh/Jesus is the agent of El and the mediator between El and Israel. Sometimes Yahweh speaks as if he is literally El because as his agent his word is one and the same.

In Isa 42 there is a precursor to the baptism of Jesus where the Father speaks from heaven and says; "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".

To understand it you have to understand the law of witnesses.

Jesus taught "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true" anyone including Jesus needs a witness as they declare God the Father's will. "But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me...."

This concept is important to understanding what is happening in Isa 42, where an unnamed voice says,

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

The Father is bearing witness of the Son Yahweh the Lord of host.

Now Yahweh speaks and declares his authority.

5 ¶ Thus saith God the Lord/Yahweh, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee/Israel in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

It was Yahweh/Jesus who created the physical world under the direction of the Father. He created the physical body of Adam and gave him the breath of life.

gadar perets said:

Paul said no such thing. Israel's rock was Father YHWH. To understand 1 Corinthians 10:1-9 you must first understand Exodus 17:6;

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No, I do not have to understand Exodus 17:6 to understand that Paul said Jesus Christ was the person that brought Israel out of Egypt. (reread
1 Corinthians 10:4). Jesus was the rock, YHWH was the rock also because they are the same Person.

To smite the rock was to kill the Messiah? Who worked long and hard to come up with that shadow? That is a long stretch.

You use the word 'figurative', you refer to the Greek translations, shared titles do not make the same person. Do you see how hard you are working to prove that Paul really did not say that Jesus Christ was the person who brought Israel out of Egypt.

And since you agree that YHWH brought Israel out of Egypt, and Paul agrees that it was Jesus Christ, we have our solution. YHWH and Jesus Christ are the same Person.

That is what Paul said and what our leaders today have been told by Jesus Christ himself. YHWH, the God of the OT is the incarnated Jesus Christ of the NT. Oh, BTW, I did not ever say that Yeshua was God/Elohim. What I said was YHWH/Yeshua is the firstborn spirit Son of God/Elohim and YHWH/Yeshua is the only begotten Son of God/Elohim. That is what I said.

There are many derivations concerning Elohim, Yahweh, YHWH, God, the Lord God, Jehovah, Yeshua, Jesus Christ, Messiah. Nobody seems to be able to agree on the right combination. I have read your arguments and to me they do not impact my belief that Elohim is the Supreme God, His Son has many names, YHWH/Jehova/Yeshua/Jesus Christ. Further arguments along this line will not be fruitfull for either of us. We will just have to agree to disagree and still be friends. But thank you for the discussion. If you would like to add anything more, please do, I may or may not respond.

withwonderingawe said:

Yahweh/Jesus is the agent of El and the mediator between El and Israel. Sometimes Yahweh speaks as if he is literally El because as his agent his word is one and the same.

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You have it backwards; Yeshua is the agent of El YHWH or YHWH El. Yeshua is the mediator between YHWH and Israel. YHWH speaks as though He is El because He IS El. Abram knew this in Genesis 14:22.
Even Hagar knew this in Genesis 16:13. Moses knew it in Numbers 12:13. Joshua knew it in Joshua 24:19. David knew it in 2 Samuel 22:32. The list goes on and on.

In Isa 42 there is a precursor to the baptism of Jesus where the Father speaks from heaven and says; "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".

To understand it you have to understand the law of witnesses.

Jesus taught "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true" anyone including Jesus needs a witness as they declare God the Father's will. "But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me...."

This concept is important to understanding what is happening in Isa 42, where an unnamed voice says,

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

The Father is bearing witness of the Son Yahweh the Lord of host.

Now Yahweh speaks and declares his authority.

5 ¶ Thus saith God the Lord/Yahweh, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee/Israel in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

It was Yahweh/Jesus who created the physical world under the direction of the Father. He created the physical body of Adam and gave him the breath of life.

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There is only one speaker in Isaiah 42:1-9, El YHWH and He is talking about His Son through verse 7. Father YHWH is the only YHWH in Scripture and He created all things all by Himself by speaking creation into existence (Isaiah 44:24; Psalm 33:6).

Peter1000 said:

And since you agree that YHWH brought Israel out of Egypt, and Paul agrees that it was Jesus Christ, we have our solution. YHWH and Jesus Christ are the same Person.

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YHWH is Yeshua's Father.

You haven't addresses Exodus 3:15-16 and Acts 3:13 which also show the Son is NOT YHWH.

That is what Paul said and what our leaders today have been told by Jesus Christ himself. YHWH, the God of the OT is the incarnated Jesus Christ of the NT. Oh, BTW, I did not ever say that Yeshua was God/Elohim. What I said was YHWH/Yeshua is the firstborn spirit Son of God/Elohim and YHWH/Yeshua is the only begotten Son of God/Elohim. That is what I said.

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Not only did you just say in the first sentence of this paragraph that Jesus Christ is "YHWH, the God of the OT", but you said the same thing in a previous post where you wrote;


So, according to you, "Jesus" is the God of the OT and he is also the Son of "God/Elohim". THerefore, you have the Son as his own Father. You are sadly confused bro.

There are many derivations concerning Elohim, Yahweh, YHWH, God, the Lord God, Jehovah, Yeshua, Jesus Christ, Messiah. Nobody seems to be able to agree on the right combination. I have read your arguments and to me they do not impact my belief that Elohim is the Supreme God,

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I'm glad you believe "Elohim" is the Supreme God. Now you just need to learn that the Supreme God "Elohim" is Father YHWH.

His Son has many names, YHWH/Jehova/Yeshua/Jesus Christ.

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The Son's name is Yeshua, NOT YHWH. Psalm 2:7 makes that abundantly clear. To make the Son "YHWH" you must read him into various texts.

gadar perets said:

Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against (Father) YHWH, and against his anointed (Yeshua), saying,

Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: 9Father) YHWH hath said unto me (Yeshua), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.​

YHWH is Yeshua's Father.

You haven't addresses Exodus 3:15-16 and Acts 3:13 which also show the Son is NOT YHWH.

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I know of many derivations of who is God and who is His Son. So everyone can prove from the scriptures their particular derivation. So to keep giving me scriptures that you say prove that Yeshua is not YHWH is worthless to me. I can give you scriptures that will prove that Yeshua is YHWH. I start to become weary of the whole business.

Not only did you just say in the first sentence of this paragraph that Jesus Christ is "YHWH, the God of the OT", but you said the same thing in a previous post where you wrote;

I believe Paul, I believe our leaders today that tell us that Jesus Christ himself has told them that he is YHWH, the God of the OT, and the incarnated Jesus Christ of the NT, the firstborn spirit Son of God/Elohim, the only begotten Son in the flesh of God/Elohim.​

So, according to you, "Jesus" is the God of the OT and he is also the Son of "God/Elohim". THerefore, you have the Son as his own Father. You are sadly confused bro.

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The God of the OT is YHWH, his Father is Elohim. Yeshua is Jesus Christ, the incarnation of the God of the OT who is YHWH. So Jesus Christ/Yeshua is YHWH. YHWH is not Elohim. Elohim is the Father of (YHWH/Jehovah/Yeshua/Jesus Christ, who are all the same Person).
Therefore Jesus was the God of the OT and he is the Son of God/Elohim, because Elohim is not YHWH.

I have always looked at Elohim and Yahweh (YHWH) as separate Persons from the first and second chapters of Genesis where the Hebrew name Elohim is translated into the English word 'God'. And it is God/Elohim that does the creating in chapter 1. Then in the second chapter of Genesis we are introduced to the Hebrew name Yahweh/Elohim and is translated into the English name of The Lord God. The Lord God/Yahweh Elohim also creates in chapter 2 of Genesis. 'Elohim' and 'Yahweh Elohim' to me are not the same Person. Elohim created the all things spiritual in chapter 1 and Yahweh Elohim created all things physical in chapter 2.

Translators are all screwed up about the relationship between Elohim and Yahweh and Jehovah and Yeshua and Jesus. It is all a real mess. Everybody has a different take on the relationship. Like I say, it starts to weary me.

Peter1000 said:

I know of many derivations of who is God and who is His Son. So everyone can prove from the scriptures their particular derivation. So to keep giving me scriptures that you say prove that Yeshua is not YHWH is worthless to me. I can give you scriptures that will prove that Yeshua is YHWH. I start to become weary of the whole business.

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You can believe what you want. There is no refuting Psalm 2:7.

The God of the OT is YHWH, his Father is Elohim. Yeshua is Jesus Christ, the incarnation of the God of the OT who is YHWH. So Jesus Christ/Yeshua is YHWH. YHWH is not Elohim. Elohim is the Father of (YHWH/Jehovah/Yeshua/Jesus Christ, who are all the same Person).
Therefore Jesus was the God of the OT and he is the Son of God/Elohim, because Elohim is not YHWH.

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Sorry, but you are sadly mistaken by saying the God of the OT has a Father when the God of the OT IS the Father. "YHWH is not Elohim"???? The OT uses the phrase "YHWH Elohim" 33 times. Do you just ignore them? What do you do with the verses below?

I have always looked at Elohim and Yahweh (YHWH) as separate Persons from the first and second chapters of Genesis where the Hebrew name Elohim is translated into the English word 'God'. And it is God/Elohim that does the creating in chapter 1. Then in the second chapter of Genesis we are introduced to the Hebrew name Yahweh/Elohim and is translated into the English name of The Lord God. The Lord God/Yahweh Elohim also creates in chapter 2 of Genesis. 'Elohim' and 'Yahweh Elohim' to me are not the same Person. Elohim created the all things spiritual in chapter 1 and Yahweh Elohim created all things physical in chapter 2

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Wow! Once again you are sadly mistaken. The Elohim of chapter 1 is the same "YHWH Elohim" throughout Scripture. Also, there is no "spiritual" creation in chapter 1 and a "physical" creation in chapter 2. They are referring to the one and only creation of all things in six days. I hope you are alone in your belief and that this is not an official Mormon teaching.

Translators are all screwed up about the relationship between Elohim and Yahweh and and Jehovah and Yeshua and Jesus. It is all a real mess. Everybody has a different take on the relationship. Like I say, it starts to weary me.

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I will agree that translators messed things up when they removed the name YHWH from Scripture and replaced it with "the LORD", but they are not to blame for your confusion. You are ignoring the plain texts of Scripture and reading into them things that are totally untrue. Either that or your "leaders" whom you claim to follow are leading you astray.

gadar perets said:

You can believe what you want. There is no refuting Psalm 2:7.


Sorry, but you are sadly mistaken by saying the God of the OT has a Father when the God of the OT IS the Father. "YHWH is not Elohim"???? The OT uses the phrase "YHWH Elohim" 33 times. Do you just ignore them? What do you do with the verses below?

Deuteronomy 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that YHWH he is Elohim in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.​

Psalm 100:3 Know you that YHWH he is Elohim: it is He that has made us, and not we ourselves; we are His people, and the sheep of His pasture.​

Wow! Once again you are sadly mistaken. The Elohim of chapter 1 is the same "YHWH Elohim" throughout Scripture. Also, there is no "spiritual" creation in chapter 1 and a "physical" creation in chapter 2. They are referring to the one and only creation of all things in six days. I hope you are alone in your belief and that this is not an official Mormon teaching.


I will agree that translators messed things up when they removed the name YHWH from Scripture and replaced it with "the LORD", but they are not to blame for your confusion. You are ignoring the plain texts of Scripture and reading into them things that are totally untrue. Either that or your "leaders" whom you claim to follow are leading you astray.

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The only God mentioned in Genesis 1 is Elohim. No Yahweh Elohim yet. We have to wait until chapter 2 to see Yahweh Elohim. They are not the same person. You can argue that they are, and we can argue that they are not, using the same proof text. Where do we go from there?

Yes you mention as proof that Yahweh is Elohim with Deuteronomy 4:39, which says that the lord (Yahweh) he is God (Elohim) in heaven.

This is the translation problem I was talking about. To refer to Yahweh and Elohim in the same sentence is very confusing. So your solution or interpretation is that Yahweh = Elohim.
LDS interpretation is Yahweh is the God of the OT, but he is still not the Elohim of Genesis chapter 1. He is Yahweh Elohim of Genesis chapter 2. They are 2 separate and distinct Persons. The English name for Yahweh Elohim is 'Lord God', which indicates a subordinate position to the English name for Elohim, which is 'God'. So Deut. 4:39 would be saying that the 'Lord God' is 'God'. I don't think so.

If the 'Lord God' is 'God', why have a 'Lord God'?

If there are not 2 Persons, if there is just 1 'God', then why have a 'Lord God" to confuse the issue. The answer is simple. There are 2 Persons. Elohim (God) of Genesis chapter 1, and Yahweh Elohim (Lord God) of Genesis chapter 2. They are so united in Their work it is as if They are 1 God.

In Exodus 4:16, Yahweh tells Moses that he is going to be God (Elohim) for Aaron.
Exodus 4:16
16 He indeed shall speak for you to the people; he shall serve as a mouth for you, and you shall serve as God for him.

Does this scripture mean that Yahweh and Moses both are equal to Elohim? No, Moses is not equal to Elohim of Genesis chapter 1. Neither is Yahweh, even though the scriptures from time to time say he is Elohim. The reason is, Yahweh represents Elohim. They are so united in Their purpose, Yahweh can use the name of Elohim any time he wishes. That can be a confusing issue.

gadar perets said:

You can believe what you want. There is no refuting Psalm 2:7.

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Psalms 2:7 says that Yahweh said, 'thou art my son..., which would indicate that Yahweh was Jesus/Yeshua's Father.

Acts 13:33 says that Elohim said, thou art my son..., which would indicate that Elohim was Jesus/Yeshua's Father.

So who is the Father of Jesus/Yeshua?

Lets look at Hebrews to get the answer.

Hebrews 1:1 This scriptures says that God (Elohim) has at sundry times and in diverse manners....

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he (Elohim) at any time, thou art my son.... (parenthesis mine, but vs 1 tells us that Elohim is talking). This alone is the answer to Psalms 7:2. Acts 13:33 is the right answer because Hebrews 1:5 confirms it, and not Psalms 7:2.

But let us continue:

Hebrews 1:8 Unto the son he (Elohim - see vs 1) saith, Thy throne, O God(the Son), is forever and ever.... Here, God (Elohim) is telling his Son that he is God too, and has a throne for ever and ever.

Hebrews 1:9 ....therefore God (the Son), even thy God (Elohim) hath annointed you with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. So again
God (Elohim) is calling His Son, God also.

Hebrews 1:10 This is the true answer: And , thou, Lord (Yahweh), in the beginning hast laid the foundations of the earth.... (see Elohim in vs. 1 is talking to His son in vs 5,8,9, and then calls his Son in vs 10, Lord (Yahweh).

God in Hebrews 1:1 is Elohim of the first chapter of Genesis. The Lord in Hebrews 1:10 is the Lord God (Yahweh Elohim) of the second chapter of Genesis. The Lord God is the Son of God. Lord indicates a subordinate position to God. The Lord/Yahweh (YHWH) is the son (Jesus/Yeshua) of
God (Elohim)

Peter1000 said:

The only God mentioned in Genesis 1 is Elohim. No Yahweh Elohim yet. We have to wait until chapter 2 to see Yahweh Elohim. They are not the same person. You can argue that they are, and we can argue that they are not, using the same proof text. Where do we go from there?

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You have no proof except to say they are two different beings. I have proof they are one and the same.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days YHWH made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore YHWH blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exodus 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days YHWH made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Psalm 95:6-7 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before YHWH our maker.
For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

It took "Elohim" six days to make everything. His name is YHWH according to the verses above. YHWH is the Father of Yeshua according to Psalm 2:7. YHWH Elohim is simply combining the Creator's name with His title.

Yes you mention as proof that Yahweh is Elohim with Deuteronomy 4:39, which says that the lord (Yahweh) he is God (Elohim) in heaven.

This is the translation problem I was talking about. To refer to Yahweh and Elohim in the same sentence is very confusing. So your solution or interpretation is that Yahweh = Elohim.

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There is no translation problem. It is confusing to you because you have been taught falsely. Here is the Hebrew/English interlinear of Deuteronomy 4:39;

Deu 4:39 וידעתH3045 Know היוםH3117 therefore this day, והשׁבתH7725 and consider אלH413 in לבבךH3824 thine heart, כיH3588 that יהוהH3068 the LORD הואH1931 he האלהיםH430 God בשׁמיםH8064 in heaven ממעלH4605 above, ועלH5921 and upon הארץH776 the earth מתחתH8478 beneath: איןH369 none עוד׃H5750 else.

The word in blue is YHWH. The words in green are ha'Elohim (the Elohim). The word in red is "hu" (He). This literally translates as "YHWH He the Elohim." Not only is YHWH "Elohim", but He is "THE ELOHIM" which is exactly what Yeshua said in John 17:3 when he referred to his Father YHWH as "the only true Elohim". How can Yeshua say that if his Father, who Psalm 2:7 identifies as YHWH, has an Elohim over him as you teach? That would make the Elohim over YHWH "the only true Elohim." LDS doctrine is untrue.

LDS interpretation is Yahweh is the God of the OT, but he is still not the Elohim of Genesis chapter 1. He is Yahweh Elohim of Genesis chapter 2. They are 2 separate and distinct Persons. The English name for Yahweh Elohim is 'Lord God', which indicates a subordinate position to the English name for Elohim, which is 'God'. So Deut. 4:39 would be saying that the 'Lord God' is 'God'. I don't think so.

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What I taught you above will hopefully help you to see things correctly.

If the 'Lord God' is 'God', why have a 'Lord God'?

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Combining the name YHWH with the title Elohim identifies YHWH as Elohim and identifies Elohim as YHWH. Without the combination, one can say "YHWH is not Elohim" or "Elohim is not YHWH" as you are erroneously doing. The combination YHWH Elohim (the LORD God) makes YHWH's identification as Elohim an ironclad case.

In Exodus 4:16, Yahweh tells Moses that he is going to be God (Elohim) for Aaron.
Exodus 4:16
16 He indeed shall speak for you to the people; he shall serve as a mouth for you, and you shall serve as God for him.

Does this scripture mean that Yahweh and Moses both are equal to Elohim? No, Moses is not equal to Elohim of Genesis chapter 1. Neither is Yahweh, even though the scriptures from time to time say he is Elohim. The reason is, Yahweh represents Elohim. They are so united in Their purpose, Yahweh can use the name of Elohim any time he wishes. That can be a confusing issue.

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They are not united in their purpose. They are one and the same being. Elohim is NOT greater than YHWH. Elohim is YHWH and YHWH is Elohim as I amply proved above.

Peter1000 said:

Psalms 2:7 says that Yahweh said, 'thou art my son..., which would indicate that Yahweh was Jesus/Yeshua's Father.

Acts 13:33 says that Elohim said, thou art my son..., which would indicate that Elohim was Jesus/Yeshua's Father.

So who is the Father of Jesus/Yeshua?

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The Greek of of Acts 13:33 uses "theos" which is equivalent to the Hebrew "Elohim". This just further proves that YHWH and Elohim are the same being, the Father of Yeshua.

Lets look at Hebrews to get the answer.

Hebrews 1:1 This scriptures says that God (Elohim) has at sundry times and in diverse manners....

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he (Elohim) at any time, thou art my son.... (parenthesis mine, but vs 1 tells us that Elohim is talking). This alone is the answer to Psalms 7:2. Acts 13:33 is the right answer because Hebrews 1:5 confirms it, and not Psalms 7:2.

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Again, this confirms that YHWH is the God/Elohim/Theos referred to in Hebrews 1:5.

But let us continue:

Hebrews 1:8 Unto the son he (Elohim - see vs 1) saith, Thy throne, O God(the Son), is forever and ever.... Here, God (Elohim) is telling his Son that he is God too, and has a throne for ever and ever.

Hebrews 1:9 ....therefore God (the Son), even thy God (Elohim) hath annointed you with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. So again
God (Elohim) is calling His Son, God also.

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Yeshua is NOT "God/Elohim" in the sense that his Father is "Elohim". Yeshua specifically identified "the only true Elohim" as his Father (John 17:3). He did NOT include himself as part of "the only true Elohim". Therefore, Yeshua is a lesser elohim as are angels and mighty men such as in Psalm 82:6.

Hebrews 1:10 This is the true answer: And , thou, Lord (Yahweh), in the beginning hast laid the foundations of the earth.... (see Elohim in vs. 1 is talking to His son in vs 5,8,9, and then calls his Son in vs 10, Lord (Yahweh).

God in Hebrews 1:1 is Elohim of the first chapter of Genesis. The Lord in Hebrews 1:10 is the Lord God (Yahweh Elohim) of the second chapter of Genesis. The Lord God is the Son of God. Lord indicates a subordinate position to God. The Lord/Yahweh (YHWH) is the son (Jesus/Yeshua) of
God (Elohim)

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It appears as though the writer of Hebrews is including verses 10-12 as additional statements that YHWH ELohim made to His Son. The use of "And" in verse 10 and "but" in verse 13 suggest this. But if we look a little deeper we will find several discrepancies. Verses 10-12 are direct quotes from Psalm102:25-27. They are not a quote from the Hebrew Text, however, but from the Septuagint (LXX). The Hebrew Text does not have "Lord" in it. Therefore, to say that "Lord" in Hebrews 1:10 proves that Yeshua is YHWH is unscriptural. The LXX has "Kurie" in Psalm 102:25, but that is an addition since it is not found in the Hebrew Text. The LXX also omits "O my El" in verse 24.

In reading the Hebrew of Psalm 102, it is clear the subject is YHWH. They are the words of an afflicted man as he cries out to YHWH. They are not the words of YHWH as He speaks to His Son.

Notice each of the other Old Testament quotes in Hebrews 1;

Psalm 2:7 - "...Thou art my Son; this day I (YHWH) have begotten thee."

2 Samuel 7:14 - "I (YHWH) will be to him a Father..."

Deuteronomy 32:43 (LXX) - "And let all the angels of God (YHWH) worship him."

Psalm 45:6,7 - "Thy throne O elohim...therefore elohim, thy Elohim (YHWH) hath anointed thee."

Psalm 110:1 - "Sit on my right hand, until I (YHWH) make thine enemies thy footstool."

In each of these quotes it can be seen that either YHWH is talking to His Son or about His Son. Yet, in Psalm 102:25-27 it is the Psalmist talking to YHWH. Therefore, to include Hebrews 1:10-12 among those things that YHWH said to or about His Son is incorrect.

The writer of Hebrews had written verses 1-9 to show how YHWH exalted His Son, even above the angels. It appears as though the writer was then moved to exalt YHWH as well by including verses 10-12 as a parenthesis. He then resumes by showing Yeshua's exaltation in verse 13 which is a continuation of verse 9.

gadar perets said:

The Greek of of Acts 13:33 uses "theos" which is equivalent to the Hebrew "Elohim". This just further proves that YHWH and Elohim are the same being, the Father of Yeshua.

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It does not prove that YHWH and Elohim are the same being, it proves that the bible contradicts itself.

If you go to the original Greek (which we do not have) and the original Hebrew (which we do not have) and the LXX and the interlinear translation and other translations, and Strongs concordance, you can prove any doctrine you want. You do it quite often to make your point. You have to work hard to make your YHWH be the same person as Elohim.

I say the translators didn't even know the relationship between Elohim and Yahweh and Jesus. Read Exodus 3 and you will know that the translators were nuts. If Elohim and the Lord are the same Person, why go through the name menagerie.
Just read Exodus 3:2-4
2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

So in just these 3 verses, there is an angel of the Lord, the Lord, and God.
All for the same purpose to tell Moses to go to Egypt and save his people.

Why the confusion? If God is the Lord, why not just use God and not confuse everyone with the Lord and his relationship with God. If there truely is 1 God, why mess around with 2 names used in the same sentence for the same person?

I think the Jews were SKEERT to use God's name -- Yahweh -- and substituted Adonai a lot of times... and this led to "THE LORD GOD"

And the YWHW form, written without a combination of vowels and consonants -- was transmuted somehow into the made-up word JEHOVAH

Elohim, Yahweh, God, Adonai, YWHW, Jehovah, El Elyon, El Shaddai -- ya pays ya money and ya takes yer choice -- and there were more names than that even; and 'combination' names like Jehovah Rapha, and the names and combination names express certain different ASPECTS of the One God

Peter1000 said:

It does not prove that YHWH and Elohim are the same being, it proves that the bible contradicts itself.

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You're going to accuse the Bible of contradictions because YOU don't understand it???? It is crystal clear and without contradiction.

If you go to the original Greek (which we do not have) and the original Hebrew (which we do not have) and the LXX and the interlinear translation and other translations, and Strongs concordance, you can prove any doctrine you want. You do it quite often to make your point. You have to work hard to make your YHWH be the same person as Elohim.

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Believers are not to build doctrines on English translations. We build them on a thorough understanding of the Hebrew and Greek which then directs our English translations. You, of all people, should be thankful that I use the Hebrew and Greek as my foundation rather than the English since you agree the English has mistakes such as turning "YHWH" into "the LORD", "GOD", and "Jehovah".

I say the translators didn't even know the relationship between Elohim and Yahweh and Jesus.

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I agree. The majority were trinitarians who forced their preconceived ideas into the translation. Why, then, shouldn't I trust the Hebrew and Greek more??

Read Exodus 3 and you will know that the translators were nuts. If Elohim and the Lord are the same Person, why go through the name menagerie.
Just read Exodus 3:2-4
2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

So in just these 3 verses, there is an angel of the Lord, the Lord, and God.
All for the same purpose to tell Moses to go to Egypt and save his people.

Why the confusion? If God is the Lord, why not just use God and not confuse everyone with the Lord and his relationship with God.

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That has almost nothing to do with the translation. That is simply what appears in the Hebrew text. I say "almost" because whatever translation you just quoted erroneously use "the Lord" instead of "YHWH". If you are now going to say the Hebrew text cannot be trusted, then you might as well throw out your Bible altogether. The fact is, we can and must trust the Hebrew and Greek texts we have received and seek to harmonize them which is what I have been doing in an effort to give you understanding and clarity.

Consider the following verse:

Here, the KJV uses "Jesus" and "Lord" for the same person. Is it wrong? Of course not. The Greek clearly uses two different words to refer to Yeshua because Peter used two different words. Why did Peter do that? I don't know, but I trust he did. I don't try and turn "Jesus" into one person and the "Lord" into a different person. The same is true of Exodus 3:4. "YHWH" (the Lord) and "Elohim" (God) refer to the same person. The "Angel of YHWH" is obviously a different person referring to the messenger YHWH sent to talk to Moses.

If there truely is 1 God, why mess around with 2 names used in the same sentence for the same person?

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Are you bringing monotheism into question? What do you do with the following verses?


There is truly only one God/Elohim. Paul says He is "the Father". The Son mediates between the one God and man meaning the Son is not the one God. If the "one God" Paul wrote about in these verses hasa God/Elohim over him as you declare, then there are two Gods (polytheism - a major doctrinal error).

gadar perets said:

You're going to accuse the Bible of contradictions because YOU don't understand it???? It is crystal clear and without contradiction.

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The bible is full of contradictions because of translators not knowing what the truth is. Your example in Luke 5:8 can be compared to John 20:28 when Thomas calls Jesus his Lord and his God. So there are many confusing scriptures. Seems there were lots of unintended errors made by lots of people using names that cause problems. It is impossible for us, for instance to come down to a reasonable conclusion, and both of us agree. It is impossible if all we have is the bible.

I agree. The majority were trinitarians who forced their preconceived ideas into the translation. Why, then, shouldn't I trust the Hebrew and Greek more??

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Does the Hebrew and Greek only have one name for the 1 God, or do they have multiple names for the same 1 God, which leads us to believe that there are multiple persons in a Godhead.

For instance, read this interesting scripture:
Psalm 110:1
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Here you have 2 YHWH's talking to each other, one says to the other sit thou at my right hand.....
AND
Genesis 19:24
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.

Here you have a YHWH on the earth calling on a YHWH in heaven to rain down brimstone and fire. (And the YHWH on earth ate and drank, so He had a body of flesh and bone). Interesting, don't you think?

Are you bringing monotheism into question? What do you do with the following verses?

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Yes, I am. But it is because the bible does too. See the 2 scriptures above, and others that tell us there are at least 2 Persons in the Godhead in the OT and the NT.

There is truly only one God/Elohim. Paul says He is "the Father". The Son mediates between the one God and man meaning the Son is not the one God.

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If you have God/Elohim, and you have the Son that mediates between the 1 God and man, where does YHWH fit into your statement?

Peter1000 said:

The bible is full of contradictions because of translators not knowing what the truth is. Your example in Luke 5:8 can be compared to John 20:28 when Thomas calls Jesus his Lord and his God. So there are many confusing scriptures. Seems there were lots of unintended errors made by lots of people using names that cause problems. It is impossible for us, for instance to come down to a reasonable conclusion, and both of us agree. It is impossible if all we have is the bible.

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Just because they are confusing to you does not mean they are contradictions. You sound like an unbeliever trying to attack the Bible. Do your LDS brethren treat the Bible with the same disdain you do?

Does the Hebrew and Greek only have one name for the 1 God, or do they have multiple names for the same 1 God, which leads us to believe that there are multiple persons in a Godhead.

For instance, read this interesting scripture:
Psalm 110:1
110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Here you have 2 YHWH's talking to each other, one says to the other sit thou at my right hand.....

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The one God has one name, YHWH.


Words like Elohim, Lord, Adonai, etc., are titles. The name YHWH can be combined with titles, but that does not make it another name. It simply makes it the same name with a descriptive title.

As for Psalm 110:1, the word YHWH does not appear in that verse twice. The first "Lord" is "YHWH" in the Hebrew text and refers to the only true God (Yeshua's Father). The second "lord" is "adoni" meaning "my Lord" and prophetically refers to David's future Lord.

AND
Genesis 19:24
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.

Here you have a YHWH on the earth calling on a YHWH in heaven to rain down brimstone and fire. (And the YHWH on earth ate and drank, so He had a body of flesh and bone). Interesting, don't you think?

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This verse does indeed have two YHWHs, but they refer to the same being. This verse says nothing about one YHWH calling upon another. You are reading that into the text. This is a Hebrew idiom. A similar idiom can be found in 1 Kings 8:1;


Using your logic, here you have one Solomon assembling men unto a second Solomon who was in Jerusalem. True? No. This is a Hebrew idiom. It is a peculiarity in the language.

Yes, I am. But it is because the bible does too. See the 2 scriptures above, and others that tell us there are at least 2 Persons in the Godhead in the OT and the NT.

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In verses where a second being such as Yeshua is called "God", it is the result of translator error. Since Yeshua clearly said his Father is the "only true God" (John 17:3), anytime the word is used of a being other than Yeshua's Father, it is to be understood to a lesser degree. "Theos" and "elohim" are both used of Yeshua, but the translators wrote "God" with a capital "G" making it seem as though Yeshua is a "God" equal to Father YHWH or that he is the Father. "Elohim" and "theos" are both used of men. Therefore, using "elohim", "theos", "mighty one" or some other similar translation when used of Yeshua would preserve the distinction that those two words hold in their language and would make it clearer that Yeshua is not an "elohim" to the same degree that Father YHWH is.

If you have God/Elohim, and you have the Son that mediates between the 1 God and man, where does YHWH fit into your statement?

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YHWH is the one God. He is the greatest being in the hierarchy of heaven. Yeshua is His Son, the second greatest in the hierarchy. He mediates between YHWH and man.

gadar perets said:

Just because they are confusing to you does not mean they are contradictions. You sound like an unbeliever trying to attack the Bible. Do your LDS brethren treat the Bible with the same disdain you do?

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We love the bible, and we read it diligently and pray and do all the things that a good Christian does. However, you and I will never be able to come to an agreement about the relationship between Elohim, YHWH, and Jesus by using the bible. Sorry, but we have proved that with our posts, and responses.

The one God has one name, YHWH.

Isaiah 42:8a I am YHWH: that is my name:​

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That's a good try, but I believe there are 2 Gods, the first God is Elohim, which is translated 'God'. He has 1 name and that is Elohim. (See Genesis 1:1 Notice that Elohim 'created' His creation)

The second God is Yahweh Elohim, which is translated 'Lord God', and he has many names (Jehovah, Adoni, Jesus, Messiah, etc., etc., etc)
See Genesis 2:4 - Notice that the Lord God 'makes', or forms his creation.

So there are many scriptures I can use to assure myself that my theology is correct. You have many to assure yourself that your theology is correct. All from the bible. As much as we love the bible, it cannot lead both of us to the same conclusion. We have proved it.

As for Psalm 110:1, the word YHWH does not appear in that verse twice. The first "Lord" is "YHWH" in the Hebrew text and refers to the only true God (Yeshua's Father). The second "lord" is "adoni" meaning "my Lord" and prophetically refers to David's future Lord.

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The word "lord" does not appear anywhere? Who is David's future Lord?

It is interesting that in the ASV, (the one you use often), it refers to 'The Lord' as 'Jehovah', and 'my Lord' as 'my Lord' in the same font.
In the KJV it refers to 'The Lord' as 'The Lord', but in a lower font, and
'my Lord' in regular font. What's with the font size?

What time frame do you put this event in?

gadar perets says:

YHWH is the one God. He is the greatest being in the hierarchy of heaven. Yeshua is His Son, the second greatest in the hierarchy. He mediates between YHWH and man.

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So do you believe that YHWH was incarnated into Jesus, so that it could be said that God is with us? If not, do you even believe in an incarnation of God so that He could save His people?[/QUOTE]

Peter1000 said:

We love the bible, and we read it diligently and pray and do all the things that a good Christian does. However, you and I will never be able to come to an agreement about the relationship between Elohim, YHWH, and Jesus by using the bible. Sorry, but we have proved that with our posts, and responses.

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We won't come to an agreement if you keep reading whatever you want into the texts and making crucial mistakes in your lack of understanding of Hebrew and Greek.

That's a good try, but I believe there are 2 Gods, the first God is Elohim, which is translated 'God'. He has 1 name and that is Elohim. (See Genesis 1:1 Notice that Elohim 'created' His creation)

The second God is Yahweh Elohim, which is translated 'Lord God', and he has many names (Jehovah, Adoni, Jesus, Messiah, etc., etc., etc)
See Genesis 2:4 - Notice that the Lord God 'makes', or forms his creation.

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The following verses from Genesis 1 tell us "Elohim made".


The following verses tell us "the LORD God" (YHWH Elohim) "created" His creation.


They are one and the same being.

The word "lord" does not appear anywhere?

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I didn't say that. The words "my Lord" are a translation of "adoni".

Who is David's future Lord?

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Yeshua. Yeshua was not existing as a living being at the time this prophecy was given to David. The prophecy was to be fulfilled after Yeshua's resurrection when YHWH said to him, "Sit thou on my right hand ...".

It is interesting that in the ASV, (the one you use often), it refers to 'The Lord' as 'Jehovah', and 'my Lord' as 'my Lord' in the same font.
In the KJV it refers to 'The Lord' as 'The Lord', but in a lower font, and
'my Lord' in regular font. What's with the font size?

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It is bad that translators removed "YHWH" from the text and substituted "the LORD", but its even worse when they use "the Lord". The KJV, which is what I usually use, uses "the LORD" so one knows when the Tetragrammaton appears in the Hebrew text. Here is Psalm 110:1 from eSword's KJV:

What time frame do you put this event in?

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See above.