Are babies unrighteousness?

GreatistheLord · Aug 14, 2017

romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

GreatistheLord · Aug 14, 2017

In rounding off what every human ever does, Paul says we all are quick to shed blood, every single one of us, even those who are terminated in a few weeks if it's so literal.

Sarah G · Aug 14, 2017

Being born into this material world we carry the curse of Adam, the sins of our forefathers. Only Jesus was born free of that burden as He was born of a virgin and the Holy Spirit. A baby or foetus has never sinned yet is born with that sinful nature. That is the answer that pops into my mind. That nobody seeks God does sound like hyperbole.

SkyWriting · Aug 14, 2017

GreatistheLord said:
romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old fetus as well as the murder.

Correct. We are born into sin just as a fish is born into water. We all are wet.

Romans 8
21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

So rather than being born into perfection, we are born into decay/death and wait eagerly for adoption as children. Even most fetuses do not live and see death before being born.

Joe Fizz · Aug 14, 2017

GreatistheLord said:
romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

Nay,this is indeed the correct scripture but not fitted to your "subject" a child that is not born or likewise a child that dies before an age of sin accountability,is therefore "Welcomed by God into heaven with open arms" for the child has no parent in essence as well as that the child can hardly do a willful sin,according to of course your lifespan given of the child,it's the same as asking was Jesus unrighteous,because a child being born into sin only means the child is "capable" of sin,but not held accountable nor considered unrighteous,this is why despite popular"doctrine" babies have no need to be baptized or sprinkled for they have not "known"'sin,therefore they Are Righteous it is when they have lived enough to account for sin that they have a need of any form of baptism(including baptism of the holy spirit)your quote of scripture is "True" but you have yet to "allow"the holy spirit to guide you to answers,anyone can quote scripture yet not grasp what it "truly" means as with this scripture you quoted,when it is stated,"there is none righteous no not one" the scripture is referring to everyone who is born into sin and are "able" to account for their sin once past the time of "innocence" in their lives,I encourage you to seek out the holy spirit for answers when reading the bible,and "let" him teach you,using one's own knowledge concerning God's word particularly is when we all confound ourselves because to read God's word you must read it in a"spiritual" instead of a "natural" sense,it's not like a normal book or newspaper that you just read it and understand it,it takes time and willingness to learn even a portion of it.

Joe Fizz · Aug 14, 2017

Chosen_and_blessed said:
Being born into this material world we carry the curse of Adam, the sins of our forefathers. Only Jesus was born free of that burden as He was born of a virgin and the Holy Spirit. A baby or foetus has never sinned yet is born with that sinful nature. That is the answer that pops into my mind. That nobody seeks God does sound like hyperbole.

your answer was simple yet very accurate.

Dave-W · Aug 14, 2017

Chosen_and_blessed said:
That nobody seeks God does sound like hyperbole.

Indeed it is. Read the text that Paul was quoting: Psalm 53:1-3 It is referring specifically to FOOLS. (those who reject God)

GreatistheLord · Aug 14, 2017

Dave-W said:
Indeed it is. Read the text that Paul was quoting: Psalm 53:1-3 It is referring specifically to FOOLS. (those who reject God)

So when It says "there is none... not even one", it includes all living humans. The mix of prosaic and literal is confusing.

Does being born with a sinful nature, but not yet having sinned make you unrighteousness? I don't think so.

Every human ever born has a finite gap of sinlessness, IMHO.

GreatistheLord · Aug 14, 2017

SkyWriting said:
Correct. We are born into sin just as a fish is born into water. We all are wet.

Romans 8
21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

So rather than being born into perfection, we are born into decay/death and wait eagerly for adoption as children. Even most fetuses do not live and see death before being born.

Decay, sinful nature etc do not necessarily mean unrighteousness and sin, not literally.

GreatistheLord · Aug 14, 2017

So is it fair to say Total depravity as a concept is equally hyperbolic?

Dave-W · Aug 14, 2017

GreatistheLord said:
Does being born with a sinful nature, but not yet having sinned make you unrighteousness? I don't think so.

Righteous = in a right relationship.

What makes you unrighteous (meaning NOT in right relationship) is not being in a covenant relationship with God. It has little to do with whether you have sinned or not.

Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4 · Aug 14, 2017

GreatistheLord said:
romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

Nobody is but Christ himself , you take his righteousness and by that you are justified not guilty . Children get that righteousness from Christ the moment they are alive because they were too little to decide themselfes untill they can be accountable for sin . I don't know what age it is , in exodus everybody above 20 year had to die for disobedience , these under 20 inherit land . We can only speculate . God will always judge you about what you do with what you know .

Dave-W · Aug 14, 2017

GreatistheLord said:
So is it fair to say Total depravity as a concept is equally hyperbolic?

Depends on what you mean by "Total depravity."

The Calvinist understanding is not hyperbole; rather it is just plain wrong. The Arminian understanding is probably more accurate.

Ken Rank · Aug 14, 2017

GreatistheLord said:
romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

The answer is they are born into sin like anyone else, but to call them unrighteous, respectfully... is to misunderstand what Paul saying in Romans 3. Let me explain....

Psalm 14:1 For the end, A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, and have become abominable in their devices; there is none that does good, there is not so much as one.

Psalm 53:1 For the end, A Psalm of David upon Mahalath, of instruction. The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, and have become abominable in iniquities; there is none that does good.

The word for iniquities is avel which means unrighteousness, this is why most commentaries agree that Paul is referencing one or both of these verses. But notice the context, the ones who can do no good or are unrighteous are the fools who say there is no God... atheists.

The bible actually tells us we can be righteous....

Psalm 37:6 for example, says, "A little that a righteous man has Is better than the riches of many wicked." Proverbs 12:10 says "a righteous man considers the life of his animals." Proverbs 13:5 says "a righteous man hates lying." James 5:16 says in part, "The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much."

I can quote many more verses like this... but just look at the gospels. Elizabeth and her husband Zechariah are said to be righteous (Luke 1:6). Jesus himself said, "I have not come to call the righteous but rather the sinners unto repentance." (Luke 5:32) This would indicate that he believed there were righteous people whose daily walk, at least, he didn't seem so concerned about.

Blessings.
Ken

St_Worm2 · Aug 14, 2017

Hi GitL, St. Paul sums up his great discourse from the first three chapters of Romans with this statement, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" .. Romans 3:23. His point is this, that ALL of us, both Jews and Greeks .. e.g. Romans 3:9, are lost in our natural, fallen state and in need of a Savior.

The Apostle also describes the previous spiritual condition of believers, IOW, prior to coming to Christ, in his Letter to the church in Ephesus.

Ephesians 2
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

The question is, do you believe St. Paul was wrong in his assessment of the human race in any of these passages? Are we ALL lost sinners in need of a Savior (which is the point he labors to make), or are there some who are inherently righteous (apart from Christ)?

BTW, I don't believe St. Paul had unborn children or infants in view in Romans 3:9-12. The discussion there is not concerned with our "nature" or state of being, rather, it concerns what we know, what we understand, and what we do (or fail to do). Our little ones are not capable of any of that.

Yours and His,
David

GreatistheLord · Aug 14, 2017

Dave-W said:
Righteous = in a right relationship.

What makes you unrighteous (meaning NOT in right relationship) is not being in a covenant relationship with God. It has little to do with whether you have sinned or not.

That's quite a stretch from the Greek.

Dave-W · Aug 14, 2017

GreatistheLord said:
That's quite a stretch from the Greek.

That was from Dr Derek Prince. He was the Greek scholar who defined it that way.

RDKirk · Aug 14, 2017

As the natural entelechy of an acorn is an oak tree, the natural entelechy of all humans is unrighteousness.

Righteousness is bestowed upon humans by God according to His own will.

GreatistheLord · Aug 14, 2017

St_Worm2 said:
Hi GitL, St. Paul sums up his great discourse from the first three chapters of Romans with this statement, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" .. Romans 3:23. His point is this, that ALL of us, both Jews and Greeks .. e.g. Romans 3:9, are lost in our natural, fallen state and in need of a Savior.

The Apostle also describes the previous spiritual condition of believers, IOW, prior to coming to Christ, in his Letter to the church in Ephesus.

Ephesians 2
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

The question is, do you believe St. Paul was wrong in his assessment of the human race in any of these passages? Are we ALL lost sinners in need of a Savior (which is the point he labors to make), or are there some who are inherently righteous (apart from Christ)?

BTW, I don't believe St. Paul had unborn children or infants in view in Romans 3:9-12. The discussion there is not concerned with our "nature" or state of being, rather, it concerns what we know, what we understand, and what we do (or fail to do). Our little ones are not capable of any of that.

Yours and His,
David

I can accept the limited view that mankind generally is sinful, unrighteousness etc, but there is a stiff literalism to the text - no, not even one - to answer the thoughts we are covering.

How do you deal with a hard line in scripture that isn't apparently 100% true. A second old foetus has not sinned, is not unrighteous, has no view on seeking God, rather than rejecting the idea, has not shed blood, and has no wasps under its tongue.

Johns letters are also equally black and white. How do you interpret a hard theological line like this?

TheSeabass · Aug 14, 2017

GreatistheLord said:
romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

No, unrighteousness is sin and infants are not capable of sinning. Romans 9:11 before children are born none have done any good or bad therefore cannot be unrighteous/sinners. In the context of Romans 3:10-18 Paul is specifically referring to the group Jew (Romans 3:19) proving from their own law of Moses that was given them that they are sinners therefore they are no better than the Gentiles, (Romans 3:9). Note that nowhere in the context does Paul even remotely suggest anyone is a sinner due to an idea as original sin. He proves both Jew and Gentile (all) being sinners due to transgressions they chose to commit.

Paul's point, theme in Rom chpts 1-4 was there was no justification for the Jews and Gentiles under the OT law for it provided no way for complete justification therefore leaving them all 'under sin'. Paul points out in Romans 3:24ff and in Romans 6:17-18 Christ is the answer to this sin problem whereby men can be completely justified (freed from sin) through Christ and no longer be under sin. Therefore being 'under sin' has nothing to do with the nature of man when he is born, Paul's language in Rom 3 shows he does not have infants (or mentally disabled) in mind but is speaking about those of mature age (Romans 7:8-9) who know right from wrong (Isaiah 7:15-16) therefore capable of sinning and have chosen to sin.

Are babies unrighteousness?

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