Jacob Wrestling God Significance

klutedavid

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In OT, many are called gods. But still, there is only one true God.

Interestingly Gen. 32:24 says he that wrestled was a man:
“Jacob was left alone, and wrestled with a man there until the breaking of the day”.

And the man said in Gen. 32:28:
“He said, "Your name will no longer be called 'Jacob,' but, 'Israel,' for you have fought with God and with men, and have prevailed."”

Here is one example of many gods in OT:

God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.
Psalms 82:1

And from NT:

For though there are things that are called "gods," whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many "gods" and many "lords;" yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6

I may be that Jacob wrestled with some great man or angel.
Hello 1213.

What makes this topic more interesting, is that the apostles were the appointed witnesses of the man, Christ Jesus. These apostles were not necessarily strong in their understanding of the Old Testament. Only in John's gospel do we get an insight, into the deeper layers of the identity of Jesus Christ.

Now for some more information from the text regarding Jacob's encounter.

Genesis 32:22
29 Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there.

The name was withheld for a reason.

Here is another example of someone who is both angel and a man, with no name.

Judges 13
17 Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” 18 But the angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Most puzzling, are we to connect the dots?
 
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Nothing in the passage, confirms other books Angels or God.
The posts on the passage is theroy, by definition is suppositions based on ignorance of facts.
I am not calling anyone ignorant,I care for all here and would not insult you on purpose.
But there is no foundation to build on but the facts in the passage.
You can find many commentarys on this topic,but they all in some form or fashion rely on circular logic.
Esau was first born,he sold his birthright.
Esau disobeyed his Father by marrying the children of Ishmael, I can see why God was displeased with Easu.

The only way to make a reasonable conclusion is to read the narrative of events prior to and during ,and after this event.
Jacob was embraced By Esau in the end and had Esau's blessing to go his way in prosperity.
Prior to this event Jacob was in fear of Esaus wrath upon him.
The man who Jacob held on to said you are (a Prince and have been blessed by the power of God )to Jacob.
Then the man blessed him there.

Genesis: 32. 27. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
They knew each other ,this is why Esau ask why do you ask my name?
Esau asked his name in order to change Jacobs name due to Jacob being blessed by God.
 
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Genesis 32:22
29 Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there.

The name was withheld for a reason.

Here is another example of someone who is both angel and a man, with no name.

Judges 13
17 Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” 18 But the angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Most puzzling, are we to connect the dots?

Hello and thank you. One reason why the name was not said can be that else the people would have made that name their god and would have given too much honor to person that is not the one and only true God. :)
 
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klutedavid

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Hello 1213.

Thank you for your reply, here is what you said regarding the (man and angel), not giving it's name to Jacob or to Manoah.
One reason why the name was not said can be that else the people would have made that name their god and would have given too much honor to person that is not the one and only true God.
How do you know that the person who visited Jacob and Manoah (angel and man) was not an undercover God?

Genesis 32:30
So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.”

Jacob did say his life was preserved even though he stared at God's face!

Two angel names in the text are Michael and Gabriel, these names are not wonderful names. I do not think any angel name could ever be considered a wonderful name.
 
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Genesis 32:22-32


It's not like I have never read this passage before. But for some reason, it may just be that I'm tired, but I can't wrap my head around why this is significant.


My first question may be naive but was that actually God in human form? I am just confused because God sent Jesus down in the New Testament in human form and that's the only time God has ever claimed to come down to Earth.


Quote
Jesus, God's Wisdom, and the Trinity

See our video summary above -- and details below!

In order to support the traditional Christian view of the relationship of Jesus to the Father, we must understand the background for certain claims about the nature and identity of Jesus in the New Testament. Our general argument may be outlined as follows:

Jesus, as God's Word and Wisdom, was and is eternally an attribute of God the Father.

Just as our own words and thoughts come from us and cannot be separated from us, so it is that Jesus cannot be completely separate from the Father. But there is more to this explanation that is related to the distinction between functional subordination and ontological equality.

We speak of Christ as the "Word" of God, God's "speech" in living form. In Hebrew and Ancient Near Eastern thought, words were not merely sounds, or letters on a page; words were things that "had an independent existence and which actually did things."

Throughout the Old Testament and in the Jewish intertestamental Wisdom literature, the power of God's spoken word is emphasized (Ps. 33:6, 107:20; Is. 55:11; Jer. 23:29; 2 Esd. 6:38; Wisdom 9:1). "Judaism understood God's Word to have almost autonomous powers and substance once spoken; to be, in fact, 'a concrete reality, a veritable cause.'" (Richard N. Longenecker, The Christology of Early Jewish Christianity , 145.)

But a word did not need to be uttered or written to be alive. A word was defined as "an articulate unit of thought, capable of intelligible utterance." (C. H. Dodd, Interpretation of the Fourth Gospel, 263. It cannot therefore be argued that Christ attained existence as the Word only "after" he was "uttered" by God. Some of the second-century church apologists followed a similar line of thinking, supposing that Christ the Word was unrealized potential within the mind of the Father prior to Creation.)

This agrees with Christ's identity as God's living Word, and points to Christ's functional subordination (just as our words and speech are subordinate to ourselves) and his ontological equality (just as our words represent our authority and our essential nature) with the Father. A subordination in roles is within acceptable Biblical and creedal parameters, but a subordination in position or essence (the "ontological" aspect) is a heretical view called subordinationism.

It is not sufficient to object that because Jesus is a person, he cannot be an "attribute" of the Father. Personhood is not incompatible with being an attribute of another person. Moreover, we should not presume that our inability as humans to have a personal attribute also means that God cannot have one.

Background

The background with Wisdom Christology is found in the concept of hypostasis. What is a hypostasis? Broadly defined, it is a quasi-personification of attributes proper to a deity, occupying an intermediate position between personalities and abstract beings.

In the Ancient Near East here are some examples:

  • Hu and Sia, in Egyptian tradition the creative word and understanding of Re-Atum
  • Ma'at, also Egyptian, a personification of right order in nature and society, a creation of Re
  • Mesaru and Kettu, or Righteousness and Right, Akkadian hypostases conceived of as qualities of the sun-god, or as gifts granted by him, or sometimes as personal beings or independent deities
  • the divine word, which proceeds via the character of breath and wind, in Sumerian and Akkadian literature
Wisdom in Proverbs

Wisdom in Proverbs 8, and Wisdom in Sirach and Wisdom of Solomon, and Philo's logos, all fit hand in glove with these. Now, let's look at some cites, starting with Prov. 8:

Proverbs 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him...

This passage is one of several in the Old Testament (see Ps. 58:10, 107:42; Job 11:14) in which abstract qualities are personified, following an Ancient Near Eastern tradition of personification. (Derek Kidner, The Wisdom of Proverbs, Job and Ecclesiastes, 44.) Here, and in other parts of Proverbs, Wisdom "makes claims for herself which are elsewhere made only by, or for, God."

The verb used by Wisdom to call attention to its messages is the same used by the prophets to call for returning to God in repentance. (R. N. Whybray, Proverbs, 44) The speech made by Wisdom in this chapter is "a lengthy self-recommendation in which (Wisdom) boasts of her power and authority and of the gifts she is able to bestow," following a known Ancient Near Eastern literary genre in which a divinity praises itself. "Wisdom is intended to be understood as an attribute or heavenly servant of the sole God Yahweh to whom he has delegated certain powers with regard to his relations with mankind."

Finally, to complete the picture, Proverbs 2:6 tells us, "For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding." God is the source of Wisdom; Wisdom is, therefore, one of God's very characteristics and attributes.

Acquired Wisdom?

Bruce Vawter, in "Proverbs 8:22: Wisdom and Creation," Journal of Biblical Literature 99/2 (1980): 205-216, argues that Proverbs 8 depicts Wisdom as a separate deity that Yahweh "acquired." I follow Hurtado in replying that "this language of personification [used in Judaism as a whole] does not necessarily reflect a view of these divine attributes as independent entities alongside God." Such personifications "must be understood within the context of the ancient Jewish concern for the uniqueness of God, the most controlling religious idea of ancient Judaism."

Thus he regards claims like that of Vawter's, that Wisdom here is depicted as an "independent deity," as something that is "simply unwarranted and imports into such passages connotations never intended by the writers." Larry W. Hurtado, One God, One Lord: Early Christian Devotion and Ancient Jewish Monotheism, 46-7. For more on this verb, see here.

Context Between the Testaments

We will now examine Jewish speculations that accorded "the Wisdom of God" a quasi-personal status. We will then be able to see a continuity between the intertestamental literature and the New Testament that defines the nature of the relationship between God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Dunn puts it succinctly: "What pre-Christian Judaism said of Wisdom and Philo also of the Logos, Paul and the others say of Jesus. The role that Proverbs, ben Sira, etc. ascribe to Wisdom, these earliest Christians ascribe to Jesus." [James D. G. Dunn, Christology in the Making, 167] This conception of Wisdom parallels a less significant, general Jewish explanation of how a transcendent God could participate in a temporal creation. The Aramaic Targums resolved this problem by equating God with His Word; thus, in the Targums, Exodus 19:17, rather than saying the people went out to meet God, it says that the people went out to meet the word of God, or Memra.

This term became a periphrasis for God; whether it could have been reckoned as a separate person, as in Christian Trinitarianism, is a matter of debate. The risk involved with making Wisdom/Word an independent deity was too great for the rabbis to speculate further, but Christians found in the Wisdom tradition an ideal categorical conception within which to place the person of Jesus.

N.T. Wright observes in Who Was Jesus? [48-9] that Jewish monotheism "was never, in the Jewish literature of the crucial period, an analysis of the inner being of God, a kind of numerical statement about, so to speak, what God was like on the inside." Rather, it was "always a polemical statement directed outwards against the pagan nations." Rabbis of Jesus' time had no difficulty in personifying separate aspects of God's personality i.e., His Wisdom, His Law (Torah), His Presence (Shekinah) and His Word (Memra). This division had the philosophical purpose of "get(ting) around the problem of how to speak appropriately of the one true God who is both beyond the created world and active within it."

Similarly, Brad Young writes:

Within Judaism, the 'hypostatization' of Wisdom or Torah did not seem to undermine monotheism, since ultimately it was a kind of periphrasis used to circumvent the implication of direct contact between the transcendent God and the creation.

This concept, Young continues, did not challenge God's "ultimate originality and sovereignty" at all. Hence, the idea of Christianity identifying an actual person in such a way is not problematic for monotheism in any sense. Nor is a trinitarian concept entirely foreign to Judaism. O'Neill [JCO.WD, 94] records the words of the Jewish historian Philo, a contemporary of Jesus, who laid out this exposition upon the three men who came to visit Abraham in Genesis 18:2, and were presumed to be divine figures:

...the one in the middle is the Father of the Universe, who in the sacred scriptures is called by his proper name, I am that I am; and the beings on each side are those most ancient powers which are always close to the living God, one of which is called his creative power, and the other his royal power.

No one would question that Philo was a Jewish monotheist; yet here we have an exposition perfectly compatible with the Trinity: the Father, The Creative Power (the Son, or the Word), and the Royal Power (the Holy Spirit).

Similarly, in the apocryphal Baruch 4:22, we read:

For I have set hope for your salvation on the Eternal One; and joy has come to me from the Holy One, at the mercy which will soon be present for you from your Eternal Saviour.


http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.php


My second question is what does it mean? My interpretation of it is this, but I'm not quite sure. God fought Jacob for a long time because maybe Jacob was angry with Him. It's a meaningless effort for us to try to fight Him because God doesn't ever let up. But this theory was debunked when God actually dislocated his hip, Genesis 32:25

I just seem to be confused on this for some reason, it's bothering me because I cannot seem to grasp the significance of it. Any ideas?


Who are the most violent people? The ones you owe things to. Some, loan sharks will even break your leg if you don't pay them what you owe them, for starters.

So the violent people are the ones who are entitled. This entitlement comes from being PROMISED things.

Jacob had two promises pending: the promise made to his ancestor Abraham, that through his seed all the world would be blessed, and the promise that Isaac made him based on the blessings given that was actually the birthright of Esau, provision and protection all his life. Now he needed those promises fulfilled, because he was going to meet Esau! He was going to need all the protection he could get! So when he sees God, what does he do?

He pins him down and won't let go till he gets what's owed him!

Are YOU promised anything?

Yes. Life. And life does not come from bread, but by every word that comes forth from God’s mouth.

That's why the Ethiopian eunuch was so keen on being baptised. Baptism IS the promissory note. Once you are baptised, the veil, the secrecy, falls away from all the life giving words of God:

Acts 19:1-6
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit whena you believed?”
They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”
“John’s baptism,” they replied.
4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tonguesb and prophesied.


Have you any promises pending? Are you living the Life Eternal, knowing God and His Son, Jesus, being in union with them? If not, be violent! Don’t sit on your hands. Demand delivery!

Luke 18:1-8
1Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart,2saying, “In a certain city there was a judge who did not fear God and did not respect man. 3“There was a widow in that city, and she kept coming to him, saying, ‘Give me legal protection from my opponent.’ 4“For a while he was unwilling; but afterward he said to himself, ‘Even though I do not fear God nor respect man, 5yet because this widow bothers me, I will give her legal protection, otherwise by continually coming she will wear me out.’” 6And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge said; 7now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them? 8“I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?”



It's almost accepted by everyone now that “dikaiosune theou” means the righteous COMMITMENT of God: not the righteousness He is supposed to impute to sinners in exchange for their sins (LOL), but the demand that righteousness, justice, makes on God, to meet His commitments, to keep His promise to His followers.

Quote
I became convinced many years ago, and time and exegesis have confirmed this again and again, that Paul always uses this phrase to denote, not the status which God’s people have from him or in his presence, but the righteousness of God himself. This is not to say that there is no such thing as a righteous status held by believers. There is. It is to deny that this is the referent of Paul’s phrase dikaiosune theou.main argument for taking dikaiosune theou to denote an aspect of the character of God himself is the way in which Paul is summoning up a massive biblical and intertestamental theme, found not least in Isaiah 40-55 which I have argued elsewhere is vital for him. Gods dikaiosune, his tsedaqah, is that aspect of his character because of which, despite Israel’s infidelity and consequent banishment, God will remain true to the covenant with Abraham and rescue her none the less. This righteousness is of course a form of justice; God has bound himself to the covenant, or perhaps we should say God’s covenant is binding upon him, and through this covenant he has promised not only to save Israel but also, thereby, to renew creation itself. The final flourish of Isaiah 55 is not to be forgotten, especially when we come to Romans 8. Righteousness, please note, is not the same thing as salvation; God’s righteousness is the reason why he saves Israel.


N.T. Wright on ‘dikaiosune theou’ – Walking With Giants
 
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Here is a commentary from a Jewish point of view.

  • Wrestling with Man, Not Angel
    VAYISHLACH, GENESIS 32:4−36:43

D'VAR TORAH BY:
ZOË KLEIN
"Now Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until the rise of dawn" (Genesis 32:25).

Who was the man who wrestled with Jacob? Most commentators refer to the man as an angel. More specifically, as Rabbi Chama bar Chanina said, "It was the prince of Esau" (B'reishit Rabbah 77:3), implying that the "man" was the guardian angel of Jacob's brother Esau. The mysterious man's refusal to share his own name and his urgency to be set free before daybreak seem to indicate that he was more angel than human.

However, there is also ample evidence suggesting the man was Esau himself.

The chapter begins with Jacob sending messengers to his brother. When the messengers return with the news that Esau is on his way to meet Jacob, along with an army of four hundred men, Jacob is terrified and devises a plan. He selects hundreds of animals?ewes, goats, and others?as gifts for his brother. What most people understand in this passage is that Jacob is trying to win his brother's favor by placating him with gifts. But there is more to it than that.

In Genesis 32:18?21, Jacob instructs his servants saying, "If my brother Esau meets you and asks you, 'To whom do you belong, where are you going, and whose are these ahead of you?' say, 'These are your servant's, Jacob's; it is an offering sent to my lord Esau; and in fact he is following close behind us.'" He instructed the second, too, and third as well, and all [the others] who were to follow the droves, saying, "Thus and so shall you say to Esau when you reach him. And you shall add, 'And your servant Jacob himself is right behind us.'"

It is Genesis 32:20 that clues us in to Jacob's true purpose. Thus and so shall you say to Esau- in other words, the stuff about the gifts, that is just "thus and so." When Esau asks you about them, just say, you know, yadda yadda yadda, and you shall add- now, this is the part you cannot get wrong, this is not mere thus and so-And your servant Jacob himself is right behind us. What does Jacob mean to convey to Esau by having his servants emphasize, one after the other, that Jacob is right behind?

Is it that Jacob is by himself, alone, waiting?

I read it as an invitation. Jacob is essentially telling his brother, "This is an old feud between siblings that began when we were still quite young. Let's resolve this, just the two of us, and leave the armies out of it. No one has to know. You are a hunter and a warrior, and I am ready to face you without trickery, without deceit. I am no longer the mild man who stays in camp. I am by the river, unarmed, under cover of night, and I am ready to do this. Man to man. Meet me."

As for the "man" renaming Jacob "Israel," as it is written in Genesis 32:29, ". . . for you have struggled with God and with human beings, and you have prevailed," I do not see this as evidence of the man's divine origins. Rather, it is a reference to the time Esau learned his brother had stolen his father's blessing. In Genesis 27:36, Esau declared, "Is he not named Jacob? Twice now he has cheated me?he took my birthright and now, look, he has taken my blessing!"

The name Jacob means "supplanter" or "trickster," and clearly this is how Esau sees him. Esau has two names, Esau and Edom, meaning "hairy" and "red," respectively. Both names describe his appearance. Until the night of wrestling, Jacob only has one name, an action name, which describes an aspect of his character that Esau far from admires. After Esau realizes that Jacob has indeed grown, Esau finally gives his brother his second name, a new action name, one that is far more heroic. It is as if Esau is saying, "After this night I will no longer think of you as the one named Jacob, who supplanted me two times in my youth, for as an adult you have shown me that you have grown courageous and strong. You are no longer my cowardly little brother hiding behind his pot of lentil stew, sneaking around wearing skins to pretend you are me, fooling our dear father. From now on, I will call you Israel."

Jacob named the place of his encounter Peni'el, explaining, "For I have seen God face- to-face "(Genesis 32:31). This is further proof to the commentators that the man must have been an angel. However, when Jacob encounters Esau the next day, in the open, he explains, "To see your face is like seeing the face of God" (Genesis 33:10). There is no animosity expressed in the text between them. Their demons have been put to rest.

Why are the commentators reluctant to see the man as Esau himself? Strange as it sounds, sometimes it is easier to wrestle with God than it is to wrestle with our fellow man. It is easier to wrestle with theological concepts than it is to confront our neighbor.


I believe that to consider the man an angel is to stifle an essential message of the Torah. The message is that it is possible to reconcile, that it doesn't take a miracle to heal the rift between siblings. It does take courage, often heartache, and as in Jacob's case, a twisted hip joint! But it is possible. Brothers who at one time vow to kill one another can reunite with kisses and weeping. In the middle of the night, by the Jabbok river, two brothers come together. They wrestle. They fight. And at daybreak, light breaks, and for the first time, they see the divine image in each other. Esau sees Jacob as one who wrestles with beings divine and human, and Jacob sees in Esau's face the face of God.

As I wonder why the commentators are reluctant to see the man as flesh and blood, I also find myself wondering why we are reluctant to see the divine in each other. As Rabbi Levi Yitzchak of Berdichev said, whether a person really loves God can only be determined by the love that person shares with others.
Source; Judism .org
 
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Here is a commentary from a Jewish point of view.

  • Wrestling with Man, Not Angel
    VAYISHLACH, GENESIS 32:4−36:43

D'VAR TORAH BY:
ZOË KLEIN
"Now Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until the rise of dawn" (Genesis 32:25).

Who was the man who wrestled with Jacob? Most commentators refer to the man as an angel. More specifically, as Rabbi Chama bar Chanina said, "It was the prince of Esau" (B'reishit Rabbah 77:3), implying that the "man" was the guardian angel of Jacob's brother Esau. The mysterious man's refusal to share his own name and his urgency to be set free before daybreak seem to indicate that he was more angel than human.

However, there is also ample evidence suggesting the man was Esau himself.

The chapter begins with Jacob sending messengers to his brother. When the messengers return with the news that Esau is on his way to meet Jacob, along with an army of four hundred men, Jacob is terrified and devises a plan. He selects hundreds of animals?ewes, goats, and others?as gifts for his brother. What most people understand in this passage is that Jacob is trying to win his brother's favor by placating him with gifts. But there is more to it than that.

In Genesis 32:18?21, Jacob instructs his servants saying, "If my brother Esau meets you and asks you, 'To whom do you belong, where are you going, and whose are these ahead of you?' say, 'These are your servant's, Jacob's; it is an offering sent to my lord Esau; and in fact he is following close behind us.'" He instructed the second, too, and third as well, and all [the others] who were to follow the droves, saying, "Thus and so shall you say to Esau when you reach him. And you shall add, 'And your servant Jacob himself is right behind us.'"

It is Genesis 32:20 that clues us in to Jacob's true purpose. Thus and so shall you say to Esau- in other words, the stuff about the gifts, that is just "thus and so." When Esau asks you about them, just say, you know, yadda yadda yadda, and you shall add- now, this is the part you cannot get wrong, this is not mere thus and so-And your servant Jacob himself is right behind us. What does Jacob mean to convey to Esau by having his servants emphasize, one after the other, that Jacob is right behind?

Is it that Jacob is by himself, alone, waiting?

I read it as an invitation. Jacob is essentially telling his brother, "This is an old feud between siblings that began when we were still quite young. Let's resolve this, just the two of us, and leave the armies out of it. No one has to know. You are a hunter and a warrior, and I am ready to face you without trickery, without deceit. I am no longer the mild man who stays in camp. I am by the river, unarmed, under cover of night, and I am ready to do this. Man to man. Meet me."

As for the "man" renaming Jacob "Israel," as it is written in Genesis 32:29, ". . . for you have struggled with God and with human beings, and you have prevailed," I do not see this as evidence of the man's divine origins. Rather, it is a reference to the time Esau learned his brother had stolen his father's blessing. In Genesis 27:36, Esau declared, "Is he not named Jacob? Twice now he has cheated me?he took my birthright and now, look, he has taken my blessing!"

The name Jacob means "supplanter" or "trickster," and clearly this is how Esau sees him. Esau has two names, Esau and Edom, meaning "hairy" and "red," respectively. Both names describe his appearance. Until the night of wrestling, Jacob only has one name, an action name, which describes an aspect of his character that Esau far from admires. After Esau realizes that Jacob has indeed grown, Esau finally gives his brother his second name, a new action name, one that is far more heroic. It is as if Esau is saying, "After this night I will no longer think of you as the one named Jacob, who supplanted me two times in my youth, for as an adult you have shown me that you have grown courageous and strong. You are no longer my cowardly little brother hiding behind his pot of lentil stew, sneaking around wearing skins to pretend you are me, fooling our dear father. From now on, I will call you Israel."

Jacob named the place of his encounter Peni'el, explaining, "For I have seen God face- to-face "(Genesis 32:31). This is further proof to the commentators that the man must have been an angel. However, when Jacob encounters Esau the next day, in the open, he explains, "To see your face is like seeing the face of God" (Genesis 33:10). There is no animosity expressed in the text between them. Their demons have been put to rest.

Why are the commentators reluctant to see the man as Esau himself? Strange as it sounds, sometimes it is easier to wrestle with God than it is to wrestle with our fellow man. It is easier to wrestle with theological concepts than it is to confront our neighbor.


I believe that to consider the man an angel is to stifle an essential message of the Torah. The message is that it is possible to reconcile, that it doesn't take a miracle to heal the rift between siblings. It does take courage, often heartache, and as in Jacob's case, a twisted hip joint! But it is possible. Brothers who at one time vow to kill one another can reunite with kisses and weeping. In the middle of the night, by the Jabbok river, two brothers come together. They wrestle. They fight. And at daybreak, light breaks, and for the first time, they see the divine image in each other. Esau sees Jacob as one who wrestles with beings divine and human, and Jacob sees in Esau's face the face of God.

As I wonder why the commentators are reluctant to see the man as flesh and blood, I also find myself wondering why we are reluctant to see the divine in each other. As Rabbi Levi Yitzchak of Berdichev said, whether a person really loves God can only be determined by the love that person shares with others.
Source; Judism .org

This doesn't sound like a second meeting:

Genesis 33:4,11
4Then Esau ran to meet him and embraced him, and fell on his neck and kissed him, and they wept. 5He lifted his eyes and saw the women and the children, and said, “Who are these with you?” So he said, “The children whom God has graciously given your servant.” 6Then the maids came near with their children, and they bowed down. 7Leah likewise came near with her children, and they bowed down; and afterward Joseph came near with Rachel, and they bowed down. 8And he said, “What do you mean by all this company which I have met?” And he said, “To find favor in the sight of my lord.” 9But Esau said, “I have plenty, my brother; let what you have be your own.” 10Jacob said, “No, please, if now I have found favor in your sight, then take my present from my hand, for I see your face as one sees the face of God, and you have received me favorably. 11“Please take my gift which has been brought to you, because God has dealt graciously with me and because I have plenty.” Thus he urged him and he took it.

But then the Jewish commentators are known for taking liberties. ;)
 
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This doesn't sound like a second meeting:

Genesis 33:4,11
4Then Esau ran to meet him and embraced him, and fell on his neck and kissed him, and they wept. 5He lifted his eyes and saw the women and the children, and said, “Who are these with you?” So he said, “The children whom God has graciously given your servant.” 6Then the maids came near with their children, and they bowed down. 7Leah likewise came near with her children, and they bowed down; and afterward Joseph came near with Rachel, and they bowed down. 8And he said, “What do you mean by all this company which I have met?” And he said, “To find favor in the sight of my lord.” 9But Esau said, “I have plenty, my brother; let what you have be your own.” 10Jacob said, “No, please, if now I have found favor in your sight, then take my present from my hand, for I see your face as one sees the face of God, and you have received me favorably. 11“Please take my gift which has been brought to you, because God has dealt graciously with me and because I have plenty.” Thus he urged him and he took it.

But then the Jewish commentators are known for taking liberties. ;)

Well if we simply do not add anything to the passage,God's Word says he wrestled a man.
Not a Angel
Not God
Not Esau
Out of the three beings that is not in the narritive,the only one who was a man was Esau.
 
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God can appear as a man.

Yes he can,and He has already.
My point of discussing this is ,we are taught certain precepts from God's Word.
I never thought anything else but Jacob wrestling a Angel ,because that is the common teaching.
When doing a deeper study of the event,and the events prior and after,my conclusion was it was Esau.
1 Jacob was already blessed by God ,and received conformation by looking up at Bethel and seeing Christ,and hearing the blessing from Christ.
2 When Jacob was to meet Esau he was afraid,due to his buying the blessing and tricking his Father for His blessing.
3 There is no mention of God or Angel in this event,only Jacob meeting a man.
4 Esau tells Jacob he has been blessed by God.
5 When they meet in daylight Esau is joyful to see Jacob,knowing he is the chosen one of God.
Jacob wrestled in order to win Esaus approval, and forgiveness.

But it's fine to disagree ,I simply believe this event was misinterpreted at sometime and passed down the theology pipe line.
I can present nothing more than God's Word says,and study the circumstances pertaining to this event.
 
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Yes he can,and He has already.
My point of discussing this is ,we are taught certain precepts from God's Word.
I never thought anything else but Jacob wrestling a Angel ,because that is the common teaching.
When doing a deeper study of the event,and the events prior and after,my conclusion was it was Esau.
1 Jacob was already blessed by God ,and received conformation by looking up at Bethel and seeing Christ,and hearing the blessing from Christ.
2 When Jacob was to meet Esau he was afraid,due to his buying the blessing and tricking his Father for His blessing.
3 There is no mention of God or Angel in this event,only Jacob meeting a man.
4 Esau tells Jacob he has been blessed by God.
5 When they meet in daylight Esau is joyful to see Jacob,knowing he is the chosen one of God.
Jacob wrestled in order to win Esaus approval, and forgiveness.

But it's fine to disagree ,I simply believe this event was misinterpreted at sometime and passed down the theology pipe line.
I can present nothing more than God's Word says,and study the circumstances pertaining to this event.


Most of the posters on this thread and commentators think the man was God. Maybe because of:

Genesis 32:30
30So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.”

The only puzzling element was the reason for the struggle. Hence this thread.
 
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Most of the posters on this thread and commentators think the man was God. Maybe because of:

Genesis 32:30
30So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.”

The only puzzling element was the reason for the struggle. Hence this thread.

Yes Jacob in a vision had seen the face of God and received the Blessing of God.
Genesis: 28. 13. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14. And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

And God was faithful in His covenant, by saving Jacobs life from the wrath of Esau.
Otherwise people interpret what has already happened in the previous chapters,with Jacobs wives, the number of Children in a short time,and the spotted livestock that increased greatly.
Being Blessed and forgiven by Easu was part of God's covenant of Blessing at Bethel.
Often God's chosen people would name a place in honor of what God had done.
Jacob vowed a tenth of all he had to God at Bethel.
In Hebrew Bethel translated is house of God.

In the context of the of the narrative Jacob is using a flash back.

Flashback is a literary device wherein the author depicts the occurrence of specific events to the reader, which have taken place before the present time the narration is following, or events that have happened before the events that are currently unfolding in the story. Flashback devices that are commonly used are past narratives by characters, depictions and references of dreams and memories and a sub device known as authorial sovereignty wherein the author directly chooses to refer to a past occurrence by bringing it up in a straightforward manner. Flashback is used to create a background to the present situation, place or person.

Peniel is translated ,I have seen the face of God and have been preserved.
We know that no man can look upon the face of God,so wrestling with God would be impossible.
So Jacob is referring to his dream or vision of the ladder.
He is giving God the glory for his being saved from death.
Past tense and present tense is a example of semantics in the narritive.
 
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Yes Jacob in a vision had seen the face of God and received the Blessing of God.
Genesis: 28. 13. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14. And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

And God was faithful in His covenant, by saving Jacobs life from the wrath of Esau.
Otherwise people interpret what has already happened in the previous chapters,with Jacobs wives, the number of Children in a short time,and the spotted livestock that increased greatly.
Being Blessed and forgiven by Easu was part of God's covenant of Blessing at Bethel.
Often God's chosen people would name a place in honor of what God had done.
Jacob vowed a tenth of all he had to God at Bethel.
In Hebrew Bethel translated is house of God.

In the context of the of the narrative Jacob is using a flash back.

Flashback is a literary device wherein the author depicts the occurrence of specific events to the reader, which have taken place before the present time the narration is following, or events that have happened before the events that are currently unfolding in the story. Flashback devices that are commonly used are past narratives by characters, depictions and references of dreams and memories and a sub device known as authorial sovereignty wherein the author directly chooses to refer to a past occurrence by bringing it up in a straightforward manner. Flashback is used to create a background to the present situation, place or person.

Peniel is translated ,I have seen the face of God and have been preserved.
We know that no man can look upon the face of God,so wrestling with God would be impossible.
So Jacob is referring to his dream or vision of the ladder.
He is giving God the glory for his being saved from death.
Past tense and present tense is a example of semantics in the narritive.

Not true.

Abraham saw God and spoke with Him:

Genesis 18:2, 3
When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.

Quote
The role that Proverbs, ben Sira, etc. ascribe to Wisdom, these earliest Christians ascribe to Jesus." [James D. G. Dunn, Christology in the Making, 167] This conception of Wisdom parallels a less significant, general Jewish explanation of how a transcendent God could participate in a temporal creation. The Aramaic Targums resolved this problem by equating God with His Word; thus, in the Targums, Exodus 19:17, rather than saying the people went out to meet God, it says that the people went out to meet the word of God, or Memra.

Jesus Gods Wisdom

You make conclusions that are not called for. Jacob saw God at Peniel. No flashback.
 
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Not true.

Abraham saw God and spoke with Him:

Genesis 18:2, 3
When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.

Quote
The role that Proverbs, ben Sira, etc. ascribe to Wisdom, these earliest Christians ascribe to Jesus." [James D. G. Dunn, Christology in the Making, 167] This conception of Wisdom parallels a less significant, general Jewish explanation of how a transcendent God could participate in a temporal creation. The Aramaic Targums resolved this problem by equating God with His Word; thus, in the Targums, Exodus 19:17, rather than saying the people went out to meet God, it says that the people went out to meet the word of God, or Memra.

Jesus Gods Wisdom

You make conclusions that are not called for. Jacob saw God at Peniel. No flashback.

John: 1. 18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John: 8. 58. Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus: 33. 20. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22. And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

God is three ,yet one.
Each being God,and all together one God.
The reference to not seeing God face to face in the scriptures refer to God the Father.

Did Jacob see God at Bethel?

As well does it seem logical for God to ask the name of Jacob?

Genesis: 32. 26. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

This statement is in present perfect tense,it uses both internal and external analepsis, the use of and in verse 30 is
used to introduce a sentence, implying continuation)also; then:
And then it happened.
As well in verse 28 the man says thou hast power with God and with men.
This implys Jacob has the power from God already,why would God make such a statement?

But my Brother this is growing long in the tooth,it's ok if we agree to disagree.
 
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John: 1. 18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John: 8. 58. Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus: 33. 20. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. 21. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22. And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

God is three ,yet one.
Each being God,and all together one God.
The reference to not seeing God face to face in the scriptures refer to God the Father.

Did Jacob see God at Bethel?

As well does it seem logical for God to ask the name of Jacob?

Genesis: 32. 26. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

This statement is in present perfect tense,it uses both internal and external analepsis, the use of and in verse 30 is
used to introduce a sentence, implying continuation)also; then:
And then it happened.
As well in verse 28 the man says thou hast power with God and with men.
This implys Jacob has the power from God already,why would God make such a statement?

But my Brother this is growing long in the tooth,it's ok if we agree to disagree.

Quote
It is safe to assume that every visible manifestation of God in bodily form in the Old Testament is to be identified with the Lord Jesus Christ. The prince of the host of Jehovah (Josh 5:13-15), the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Jehovah of Ezekiel (Ezek 1:1-28),

A4. The Preincarnate Son of God
 
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