The "Jesus" we accept, MUST be "PREACHED".

Tolworth John

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 10, 2017
8,278
4,680
68
Tolworth
✟369,559.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
that the Father is in me, and I in him.
and in Luke 22 v70+71 ' Are you the Son of God? he replied 'You are right in saying I am.'
they said ' Why do weneed any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips.'
Mark 14 they called this blasphemy'
They knew that to claim to be the Son of God meant claiming to be God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amariselle
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Yep, been there, done that, doesn't work.
John was talking about God's words. God's words were fulfilled as a flesh and blood descendant of Adam and Eve, Abraham, Judah and David, through Mary.

The tired, trinitarian brainwashing of these texts is astounding ONLY in that so MANY people swallow it!
There is no such thing as "incarnation".
The trinitarian PRETENSE that Jesus is QUOTING from Ex 3, is pure ignorance of Hebrew, and Greek.

I notice you completely dismissed and refused to in any way acknowledge the verse were Jesus says "I AM."

Convenient.
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Says no verse ever.
Of course. Jesus isn't God. Jesus 'came forth UNTO God" in Bethlehem. (Micah 5:2)
Again, amariselle, you trotting out the tired brainwashing of the last 1,700 years of trinitarian apostasy, does NOT satisfy Paul's simple instruction that the believer cling to the "Jesus" actually PREACHED by the apostles
2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached ....

Let me make this perfectly clear, UNTIL you provide at least ONE TEXT, that records an apostle PREACHING to an audience the trinity .... you have utterly failed to overcome Paul's challenge!

The "Jesus" actually PREACHED in the Scriptures, to EVERY SINGLE AUDIENCE, is NOT the trinitarian "Jesus".

The "Jesus" preached by Paul and every single disciple was God, not a mere man, as they all well knew.

What I "trotted out" is well known Scripture that unequivocally confirms this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So you may want to ask yourself who it is who is believing in "another Jesus."

When Jesus had spoken these words, He went out with His disciples over the Brook Kidron, where there was a garden, which He and His disciples entered. And Judas, who betrayed Him, also knew the place; for Jesus often met there with His disciples. Then Judas, having received a detachment of troops, and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, came there with lanterns, torches, and weapons. Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom are you seeking?”

They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Jesus said to them, "I am He. And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Then He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?”

And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”
- John 18:1-8
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Acts 5:29-32 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree. 31 Him did God exalt with His right hand (to be) a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins. 32 And we are witnesses of these things; and the holy spirit, which God hath given to them that obey Him.

Acts 10:34-43 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 but in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to Him.
36 The word which He sent unto the children of Israel, preaching good tidings of peace by Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all.) 37 that saying ye yourselves know, which was published throughout all Judaea, beginning from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 (even) Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the holy spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree. 40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, 41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, (even) to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins.


The "Jesus" Peter preached is NOT GOD!!
The "Jesus" Peter preached was EXALTED to be a Prince and a Savior, by "the God of our Fathers"!
The "Jesus" Peter preached was resurrected by his God on the third day.
The "Jesus" Peter preached was ORDAINED by his God to be the judge of the living and the dead.
The "Jesus" Peter preached was anointed by his God with the holy spirit and with power.

If Jesus was not God, how did He have the right or the ability to forgive sins?

If Jesus was not God, how was He sinless and able to save mankind?

If Jesus was not God, why does the Bible say He was always with God (the logos) and became flesh and dwelt among us? (The incarnation).

If Jesus was not God, why does He say, several times that He is? (I AM)

Do you think He is a liar?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dartman

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2017
1,311
221
71
Washington
✟27,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you don't believe in trinity in OT you have problem with Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 3:22 simply remove these verse from bible and you are ready to go .
No, no problem. Jehovah was speaking to the angels. See Job 38:7.
You see, the ONLY way you jumped to the assumption of the trinity in those verses, is you already believed it, and were LOOKING FOR ... ANYTHING ... that would support the notion. One obvious proof, Israel didn't believe in the trinity, and they had those verses for about 1,500 years. Jesus worshiped the God of the Jews. John 4:22.

Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4 said:
Also you might not like Isaiah 48:16 ...
Did you notice verse 14? Who has Jehovah been talking about for the last couple of chapters prior to 48, that would defeat Babylon?

Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4 said:
and 61:1 so just ignore their existance .
Isa 61:1 is CONTRARY to the trinity! It states Jehovah's spirit is on Jesus, and that Jehovah anointed Jesus..
How do you twist that???

Sorry, not a single point here.
So, let's get back to the OP, Where is a single instance where an audience was told about the trinity??
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
No. The two positions dominating the debate in the Council of Nicaea were both in error.

I actually believe in the "Jesus" condemned by the Nicene Creed, as underlined below;
[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'— they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]
A few more questions for you:
(1) When was Jesus created:
- somewhere in the timeline but before anything else?
- at His human birth?
- at His baptism?
- at His resurrection?

(2) What does your Christology mean as a practical matter? For example, do you address prayers to Jesus? How does your salvation work with respect to Jesus? Etc.
 
Upvote 0

Dartman

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2017
1,311
221
71
Washington
✟27,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The "Jesus" preached by Paul and every single disciple was God, not a mere man, as they all well knew.
Says NO Scripture .... EVER.
You make blatant claims, without a shred of evidence.
PLEASE show ANY sermon where Paul told ANY audience that Jesus was God! You and I both know, there are NONE!
Instead, Paul preached REPEATEDLY that God: MADE, RAISED UP, SENT, Jesus, and then exalted him.

amariselle said:
What I "trotted out" is well known Scripture that unequivocally confirms this beyond a shadow of a doubt.
No, what you "trotted out" are Scriptures that have been twisted for about 1,700 years by trinitarians/oneness .... when there is a MUCH better understanding, that is harmonious with the rest of Scriptures ... ESPECIALLY with EVERY SINGLE text where an apostle is explaining Jesus to any audience!
READ THE OP AGAIN!!
PLEASE provide even ONE example of your "Jesus" being PREACHED to any audience in the
Bible!!

So you may want to ask yourself who it is who is believing in "another Jesus."

amariselle said:
When Jesus had spoken these words, He went out with His disciples over the Brook Kidron, where there was a garden, which He and His disciples entered. And Judas, who betrayed Him, also knew the place; for Jesus often met there with His disciples. Then Judas, having received a detachment of troops, and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, came there with lanterns, torches, and weapons. Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, “Whom are you seeking?”

They answered Him, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Jesus said to them, "I am He. And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Now when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Then He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?”

And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”

Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”
amariselle said:
- John 18:1-8
Perfect example!
Your insinuation that "I am he" means something OTHER than the Scriptures represent, is a CLASSIC example of just how brainwashed most trinitarians are. The context ALONE makes this perfectly clear.... "I am he" equals "Jesus of Nazareth".
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Says NO Scripture .... EVER.
You make blatant claims, without a shred of evidence.
PLEASE show ANY sermon where Paul told ANY audience that Jesus was God! You and I both know, there are NONE!
Instead, Paul preached REPEATEDLY that God: MADE, RAISED UP, SENT, Jesus, and then exalted him.

No, what you "trotted out" are Scriptures that have been twisted for about 1,700 years by trinitarians/oneness .... when there is a MUCH better understanding, that is harmonious with the rest of Scriptures ... ESPECIALLY with EVERY SINGLE text where an apostle is explaining Jesus to any audience!
READ THE OP AGAIN!!
PLEASE provide even ONE example of your "Jesus" being PREACHED to any audience in the
Bible!!

So you may want to ask yourself who it is who is believing in "another Jesus."

Perfect example!
Your insinuation that "I am he" means something OTHER than the Scriptures represent, is a CLASSIC example of just how brainwashed most trinitarians are. The context ALONE makes this perfectly clear.... "I am he" equals "Jesus of Nazareth".

You seem to be a very angry and defensive person. (Calling me and others "brainwashed", for example.) Regardless, contrary to the Scriptures that plainly state otherwise, you reject that Jesus is God. (Even though Jesus Himself stated He is God several times. You must believe He lied in that case.)

Oh well, your choice.

I'll stick with believing in the Jesus of the Bible, the incarnate God, who came in "the form of sinful flesh," who was able to save us by the sacrifice of Himself on the cross. (Fulfilling many OT prophecies in His earthly life, death, burial, resurrection and ascension to Heaven.)

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh..."- Romans 8:3

Jesus is God, always has been and always will be. You can believe otherwise if you like, contrary to Scripture, and therefore call God a liar. Your choice.
 
Upvote 0

Dartman

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2017
1,311
221
71
Washington
✟27,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If Jesus was not God, how did He have the right or the ability to forgive sins?
His God gave him that ability;
John 5:21-22 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:


amariselle said:
If Jesus was not God, how was He sinless and able to save mankind?
He was sinless to prove man can be sinless. He was able to save mankind ONLY because his God, through GRACE, accepted his death as payment.

amariselle said:
If Jesus was not God, why does the Bible say He was always with God (the logos) and became flesh and dwelt among us? (The incarnation).
Re-read John 1. Your rewording of the text betrays a brainwashed interpretation. The text ACTUALLY SAYS, God's logos, God's "uttered thought", was with God, and IS God, and IT became flesh!

amariselle said:
If Jesus was not God, why does He say, several times that He is? (I AM)
Your massive spin of the prepositional phrase "ego emi" is an inaccurate twisting of the texts.
1) "ego emi" is NOT the title Jehovah told Moses to give to Pharaoh. In the first place, Moses wrote in Hebrew, not Greek, so it is not "ego emi". In the second place, even in the Greek LXX text the title Jehovah gives is "O On" ... not "ego emi". AND it is translated into English "The Being".. or "The Being One".
MANY NT references use the phrase "ego emi", trinitarians are merely SO DESPERATE for ANY Scripture that could possibly be leveraged to suit their theory, that they have clutched this coincidence of English phrases.
 
Upvote 0

Dartman

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2017
1,311
221
71
Washington
✟27,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You seem to be a very angry and defensive person. (Calling me and others "brainwashed", for example.) Regardless, contrary to the Scriptures that plainly state otherwise, you reject that Jesus is God. (Even though Jesus Himself stated He is God several times. You must believe He lied in that case.)
You seem to be a very misguided person. Blindly claiming there are Scriptures that plainly state your position, and never providing any.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
His God gave him that ability;

No one can forgive sins but God alone and He does not share His glory with another.

He was sinless to prove man can be sinless. He was able to save mankind ONLY because his God, through GRACE, accepted his death as payment.

So, if mere mortals, subject to sin, can be sinless, have you achieved this sinlessness in your own life?

Re-read John 1. Your rewording of the text betrays a brainwashed interpretation. The text ACTUALLY SAYS, God's logos, God's "uttered thought", was with God, and IS God, and IT became flesh!

Exactly! Jesus is the Word (logos) Who became flesh and dwelt among us. (The incarnate God)

Your massive spin of the prepositional phrase "ego emi" is an inaccurate twisting of the texts.
1) "ego emi" is NOT the title Jehovah told Moses to give to Pharaoh. In the first place, Moses wrote in Hebrew, not Greek, so it is not "ego emi". In the second place, even in the Greek LXX text the title Jehovah gives is "O On" ... not "ego emi". AND it is translated into English "The Being".. or "The Being One".
MANY NT references use the phrase "ego emi", trinitarians are merely SO DESPERATE for ANY Scripture that could possibly be leveraged to suit their theory, that they have clutched this coincidence of English phrases.

The Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant when He said "I AM."
 
Upvote 0

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
You seem to be a very misguided person. Blindly claiming there are Scriptures that plainly state your position, and never providing any.

I've provided plenty.

Believe as you like.
 
Upvote 0

Dartman

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2017
1,311
221
71
Washington
✟27,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A few more questions for you:
(1) When was Jesus created:
- somewhere in the timeline but before anything else?
- at His human birth?
- at His baptism?
- at His resurrection?
Jesus didn't "come forth" .. even for Jehovah.... until Bethlehem, Jesus' birth. (Micah 5:2)
Jesus became "the first born from the dead", "the only begotten son", "the first born of every creature", at his resurrection;
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that He hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

cloudyday2 said:
(2) What does your Christology mean as a practical matter? For example, do you address prayers to Jesus? How does your salvation work with respect to Jesus? Etc.
Jesus is my Lord, my king, my brother, my mediator, my advocate, my Savior, the Christ/anointed, my shepherd, my priest. I do not pray TO him, I pray THROUGH him to his God and my God.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,784
Pacific Northwest
✟728,105.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Most Christians aren't "Bible only" Christians; because that simply isn't how Christianity historically has operated. And, further, "Bible only" is itself something that can't be found in the Bible. No where does the Bible itself say this, and further, the Canon of Scripture is never spelled out in the Bible either.

The Bible exists as the result of historic Christian teaching and tradition, yes, the Bible is part of Christian tradition.

The historic teaching of the Church is a living, active teaching preserved through the passing down of teaching from one generation to the next which began with the apostles; the Scriptures are part of that body of teaching. There was no Bible in the 1st century, there was a general affirmation of Scripture, but there was no established Canon; first century Jews had no established Canon and so Christians obviously couldn't have had one either. The Jewish Canon took shape following the fall of Jerusalem and the centralization of Jewish religious authority among the rabbanim which grew out of Pharisaim leading to the writing down of the Mishna and Gemara as the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds--this also resulted in the formation of a definite Canon of Jewish Scripture which we know as the Tanakh.

Christians also addressed the issue of a Canon of Scripture, which over the course of many centuries finally gave us the Bible, of which there is still continued debate over what is and is not properly canonical.

The Bible is invaluably important to the formation and informing of Christian faith and practice, and the Reformation principle of Sola Scriptura is to place the definitive weight of ecclesiastical authority upon the Scriptures themselves where the Scripture form the norma normans or chief regula fidei of Christian theology and praxis. But the Bible doesn't exist in a vacuum, and the Bible has never been the sole locus of Christian faith and praxis which is found in the entirety of the Church's living tradition and body of teaching.

I'll concede that the Trinity is problematic because it can't be explicitly found in the pages of Holy Scripture when it can be shown to me, from Scripture, that the Church must only believe that which is explicitly found in the pages of Holy Scripture. Until then it's an argument without substance defeated by its own internal inconsistency.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Dartman

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2017
1,311
221
71
Washington
✟27,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No one can forgive sins but God alone and He does not share His glory with another.
You have taken phrases out of context, and made a "frankenverse". Jesus stated plainly;

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.... 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

So, are you pitting your "frankenverse" against Christ's actual statements??
amariselle said:
So, if mere mortals, subject to sin, can be sinless, have you achieved this sinlessness in your own life?
Only at times. The FACT that Jesus DID, proves we CAN, which condemns us.
amariselle said:
Exactly! Jesus is the Word (logos) Who became flesh and dwelt among us. (The incarnate God)
Nope, read it again. Jesus is NOT "the word", Jesus is the fulfillment OF "the word". Jehovah/YHVH God GAVE Jesus "the word", and Jesus then SPOKE "the word". Jesus stated plainly,

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings (LOGOS): and the word (LOGOS) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 17:14 I have given them thy word (LOGOS); and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word (LOGOS) is truth.

amariselle said:
The Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant when He said "I AM."
Hogwash. They were wrong, and Jesus corrected them .... "..I SAID, "I am the SON of God"!!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dartman

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2017
1,311
221
71
Washington
✟27,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Dartman said:
You seem to be a very misguided person. Blindly claiming there are Scriptures that plainly state your position, and never providing any.
I've provided plenty.

Believe as you like.
You haven't met Paul's challenge, and you know it.
You can't, and you know it.
You have been spouting trinitarian drivel, quoting tired, twisted texts, that blatantly FAIL to actually state trinitarian theory, and ONLY appear to support trinitarian theory, when viewed from an entrenched trinitarian perspective.

Again, PLEASE provide ANY example of ANY tenet UNIQUE to the trinity, being explained to ANY audience in the Scripture.
OR, PLEASE provide ANY example of ANY tenet UNIQUE to the trinity, being explained in ANY Scripture.
OR, PLEASE provide ANY example of ANY Scripture that STATES "Jesus is God".
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dartman

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2017
1,311
221
71
Washington
✟27,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Most Christians aren't "Bible only" Christians; because that simply isn't how Christianity historically has operated. And, further, "Bible only" is itself something that can't be found in the Bible. No where does the Bible itself say this, and further, the Canon of Scripture is never spelled out in the Bible either.

The Bible exists as the result of historic Christian teaching and tradition, yes, the Bible is part of Christian tradition.
Paul's tearful warning of the Elders from Ephesus puts your observations in context;
Acts 20:28-31 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

The apostasy (2 Thess 2:1-12) was beginning in Paul's time, and would last until the 2nd coming of Christ. Church history proves beyond doubt, poorly converted disciples of Greek philosophy began distorting "Jesus" immediately following the death of the apostles. This heresy developed over the next 3 centuries, resulting in a GROSS "falling away" from Christ's teaching .. including NO hierarchy, NO violence, and Jehovah is his God.
 
Upvote 0

Dartman

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2017
1,311
221
71
Washington
✟27,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο

-CryptoLutheran
Yes, IT did! God's words (logos) were fulfilled as a flesh and blood baby descendant of Eve, Abraham, Judah and David through Mary.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
You have taken phrases out of context, and made a "frankenverse". Jesus stated plainly;

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.... 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

So, are you pitting your "frankenverse" against Christ's actual statements??
Only at times. The FACT that Jesus DID, proves we CAN, which condemns us.
Nope, read it again. Jesus is NOT "the word", Jesus is the fulfillment OF "the word". Jehovah/YHVH God GAVE Jesus "the word", and Jesus then SPOKE "the word". Jesus stated plainly,

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings (LOGOS): and the word (LOGOS) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 17:14 I have given them thy word (LOGOS); and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word (LOGOS) is truth.

Hogwash. They were wrong, and Jesus corrected them .... "..I SAID, "I am the SON of God"!!

Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. - John 17:1-5

I am the Lord, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
- Isaiah 42:8

So, if God, as He says, will not give His glory to "another", and Jesus says that He had glory with the Father before the world began, either God lied in Isaiah 42:8, or Jesus is in fact God.
 
Upvote 0