God's Sabbath rest is not a weekly seventh day rest

Bob S · Aug 9, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi Doveaman and all,

Sorry I have been away for a while with work and family but I did want to come back and chat about the OP. I may have to pop in and out from time to time so please forgive me if I do not respond very quickly. Please find some comments below for your consideration.

Excellent we well said we agree!

Excellent The 10 commandments represents the character of God. It is only through love that we can obey God. This is the new covenant experience of God writing His Laws in our heart. God’s Law is the standard in the Judgement and it is the definition of righteousness which is forever (Ps 119:172; Matt 6:33; Ps 98:9; Ecc 3:14)

I decided to look up the texts you used to explain that the 10 commandments represent the character of God By the way, I refute that statement. God's character is infinite. The 10 commandments do not even contain the law of love, the greatest command. You and your church are wrong for making such a statement.

None of your texts you have given explain the truth of your statement.
Ps 119:172 May my tongue sing of your word,
for all your commands are righteous.

Matt 6:33 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Ps 98:9 let them sing before the Lord,
for he comes to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
and the peoples with equity.

Ecc 3:14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him.

Just what are you trying to prove using that verse? God gave Israel a great piece of land. Is it Israel's today? He gave them the book of the law which you tell us is no longer. If He took away part of the law why could He not take away all of it like Paul wrote in 2Cor3:7-11?

Also good The 7th Day Sabbath is indeed a memorial of creation. It was given with the other 9 commandments to God’s people and make up the Law of God which is also known as the 10 commandments (Gen 2:1-3; Ex 20:8:11; 1-22).

Very good, I might add that He gave them the 10 commandments as part of a conditional covenant. Ex 19:5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

They didn't obey did they. The covenant became void. Jesus new covenant replaced the one Israel failed at keeping. That is why Paul could write Gal 3:19, 2Cor 3:7-11 and many more thoughts that explain that we are not under the laws that Israel was under.

This is where I feel you maybe diverting from scripture and where post 325 goes into more detail that you have not addressed at all. You contradict yourself in this section of your post as you say in one breath quoting the scriptures of Gen 2:1-3 that “God rested on the seventh day of creation week because it was on that day that He ceased from His finished work.” Then in the next breath you are in your own words (not scripture) “The seventh-day rest is only a memorial/shadow of God's finished work, and God's finished work with its memorial/shadow pointed forward to the finished work of Christ on the cross.” This is against the scriptures pointed out in post 325. How can the 7th Day Sabbath by a Shadow if it is part of the FINISHED WORK of creation? The other important point you have not addressed from post 325 is when the Sabbath was given. It was given BEFORE the fall of mankind as part of a FINISHED work so it cannot be part of the shadows of ceremonial Laws because mankind had not fallen. You contradict yourself in what you are saying and haven’t addressed post 325 at all. Why? Because you say you agree that the ceremonial laws of Moses are done away at the cross.

Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

If in fact, as you would like us to believe, "Sabbath day" points not to the weekly Sabbath but to a festival then you are making Paul stutter, He had already wrote about the Sabbath festivals. They were called Sabbaths were they not? They were to be treated the same as the weekly Sabbath were they not? And since Paul grouped them all together were they all not shadows of the things that were to come and is not Christ the reality of all of them?

Then you agree that the 7th Day Sabbath is part of the finished Word of Creation.

Not if you read the Genesis account. God's work of speaking the creation ended on the sixth day. He didn't do any creating on the next day, He rested from creation.

Ex 2:2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Then in the next breath you say the opposite and contradict yourself making statements that are unbiblical

He said: “The seventh-day rest is only a memorial/shadow of God's finished work, and God's finished work with its memorial/shadow pointed forward to the finished work of Christ on the cross.” I sure don't think it is unbiblical. In fact the verse does not indicate anything about any future day of rest or that it involved His created children. There is absolutely no historical proof that anyone rested on any day until after Israel crossed the Red Sea. If the Sabbath was so important, you know thee one with a halo around it, then why didn't the Israelites get stopped by God to rest during the many days it took to get to the Red Sea?

So once again if God’s says that the 7th Day Sabbath is a FINISHED work of creation and it was given BEFORE the fall of mankind, how can it be a shadow of anything?

That is you hypothesis not from the scriptures. Where is the text that Sabbath is the finished work of Creation

If the Sabbath is part of the FINISHED work of Creation and was given BEFORE the fall of mankind then it cannot be part of any shadows that are a part of something that is not FINISHED.

"If"? You are not sure? Given to who? Another hypothesis.

If it was given BEFORE the FALL of mankind it also cannot be part of any Shadow of the plan of salvation because mankind had not fallen yet.If the 7th Day Sabbath is part of God's 10 commandments then if we knowingly and willfully break it, then we are sinning against God because SIN is the transgression of God's Law and if we through love keep 9 commandments and break one we are guilty before God as if we broke all of them (1 John 3:4; James 2:8-12). If we are knowingly sinning against God. His Word says we have neither seen him of know him (1 John 2:2-4) Please go back and re-read post 325

A bunch of "ifs". Who gives you the privilege to interpret "4 Everyone who sins breaks the law" is the 10 commandments?

Bob S · Aug 9, 2017

LGW, I have a question for you. Do you know how much money the SDA church spends every year trying to convince the World that we have to observe the old covenant Sabbath?

If the 10 commandments are written on our hearts wouldn't you think it would be very easy to bring the throngs of people into the "truth"? Wouldn't you think the Holy Spirit would be pricking the hearts of Christians to keep the Sabbath like He pricks our hearts not to steal? We are not going to steal because it wouldn't be the loving thing to do. I didn't join the SDA church because my heart told me to, it was because I didn't understand the covenants and what the 10 commandments were part of and I thought God expected it of me. It became my duty.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 9, 2017

Hello Bob my friend,

How are you today? So nice to see you. Some comments for your to consider below.

Bob S said:
None of your texts you have given explain the truth of your statement. Ps 119:172 May my tongue sing of your word, for all your commands are righteous. Matt 6:33 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Ps 98:9 let them sing before the Lord, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness and the peoples with equity.

Here Bob, let me help you make the connection. God's Law (10 commandments) is the work of God (Ex 32:16). Therefore if it is God's Word it is forever so it is not done away with (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is the very definition God's Word gives (not mine) of what RIGHTEOUSNESS is (see Ps 119:172). Jesus commands us to seek first for his Kingdom and His RIGHTEOUSNESS (Matt 6:33). His RIGHTEOUSNESS is God's Law written in our hearts (Heb 8:10-12). Because we can only follow Jesus if we LOVE him. This is why Jesus says "If you LOVE me keep my commandments" (John 14:15) and on these two commandments (LOVE to GOD and our Neighbor) hang all the Law and the prophets (Matt 22:37-40). Hope that help you to connect the verses.

Bob S said:
Very good, I might add that He gave them the 10 commandments as part of a conditional covenant. Ex 19:5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” They didn't obey did they. The covenant became void. Jesus new covenant replaced the one Israel failed at keeping. That is why Paul could write Gal 3:19, 2Cor 3:7-11 and many more thoughts that explain that we are not under the laws that Israel was under.

Absolutely, Bob. God's promises and Covenants are indeed conditional on us continuing, believing and following God's Word. (John 14:15-16; 15:10; 14; 8:31-32; 36 Matt 6:14-15; 21:3; 21; 24; John 5:47; 8:24; 42; 9:41; 15:7; Rom 8:9;13; 1 Cor 3:17; Col 1:23; Heb 12:25; James 2:8-12; 2 Pet 1:10; 1 John 2:1; 2:29 etc). If we willfully disobey God and break His commandments we commit SIN because SIN is the transgression of God's Law. (1 John 3:4) If we follow the traditions and teachings of man over the Word of God we are not following God and are "Unbelievers" and unbelievers have no part in the Kingdom of God. Sunday Worship is a teaching and tradition of man and God has not commanded us to keep it over the 4th commandment (Ex 20:8-11)

Bob S said:
Col 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Hi Bob, this is fully answered here in post 325 you might like to finally take some time to read it.

Bob S said:
If in fact, as you would like us to believe, "Sabbath day" points not to the weekly Sabbath but to a festival then you are making Paul stutter, He had already wrote about the Sabbath festivals. They were called Sabbaths were they not? They were to be treated the same as the weekly Sabbath were they not? And since Paul grouped them all together were they all not shadows of the things that were to come and is not Christ the reality of all of them?

Who said the annual Festival Sabbaths do not include the weekly? These are called High Sabbaths (John 19:31). However, it was only the annual feasts included in the ceremonial laws of Moses that we no longer need to keep anymore because they all pointed to Jesus and the plan of salvation. God's 4th commandment (7th Day Sabbath) is a Law of God that God made a Holy day in the creation week and God commands us to keep it Holy. (Gen 2:1-3; Ex 20 8:11) Just like all the other commandments if you willfully and knowingly break it you are sinning against God. (1 John 3:4; Rom 6:23)

Bob S said:
Not if you read the Genesis account. God's work of speaking the creation ended on the sixth day. He didn't do any creating on the next day, He rested from creation. Ex 2:2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Bob you should be reading from Gen 2:1-3. Actually God did some very important things on the 7th Day of the creation week. Lets read them again;

GEN 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Scripture context points:
* God finished all the work of creation on the 7th Day of the week (v1)
* God ended His Work on the 7th Day of the creation week and rested from all His work of creation, it was completed no more work required (v2)
* God blessed the 7th Day and set it apart as a holy day as a memorial of creation

How can the 7th Day Sabbath by a Shadow if it is part of the FINISHED WORK of creation? The other important point you have not addressed from post 325 is when the Sabbath was given. It was given BEFORE the fall of mankind as part of a FINISHED work so it cannot be part of the shadows of ceremonial Laws because mankind had not fallen.

Bob S said:
That is you hypothesis not from the scriptures. Where is the text that Sabbath is the finished work of Creation

Bob it is not a hypothesis it is God's Word and it is found in Genesis 2:1-3 The Word "rest " is the root word of Sabbath (Ex 20:8-11). God blessed the 7th Day of the creation week and made it a Holy day for God's people (Gen 2:1-3). This day was made for mankind (Mark 2:27) and Jesus is the Lord of it and the one who made it for us (Mark 2:28; John 1:1-14). It is a sign that God's people worship the only true God of creation (Ex 31:13) and will be the distinguishing sign of God's people in the last days (Rev 14:12) Hope that is helpful.

You haven’t addressed post 325. If you cannot address it why do you not believe God Word? Please show me the scripture that says God’s 7th Day Sabbath commandment is abolished and not a commandment of God’s Law anymore and the Scripture that says that God commands us to keep Sunday as a Holy day of Worship?

Hope this is helpful

In Christ

listed · Aug 10, 2017

Bob S said:
I decided to look up the texts you used to explain that the 10 commandments represent the character of God By the way, I refute that statement. God's character is infinite. The 10 commandments do not even contain the law of love, the greatest command. You and your church are wrong for making such a statement.

None of your texts you have given explain the truth of your statement.
Ps 119:172 May my tongue sing of your word,
for all your commands are righteous.

Matt 6:33 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

Ps 98:9 let them sing before the Lord,
for he comes to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
and the peoples with equity.

Just what are you trying to prove using that verse? God gave srael a great piece of land. Is it Israel's today? He gave them the book of the law which you tell us is no longer. If He took away part of the law why could He not take away all of it like Paul wrote in 2Cor3:7-11?

He's not trying to prove anything with Ecc 3:14. He showing he's scared of God and trying to manipulate by spreading fear.

listed · Aug 10, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello Bob my friend,

How are you today? So nice to see you. Some comments for your to consider below.

Here Bob, let me help you make the connection. God's Law (10 commandments) is the work of God (Ex 32:16). Therefore if it is God's Word it is forever so it is not done away with (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is the very definition God's Word gives (not mine) of what RIGHTEOUSNESS is (see Ps 119:172). Jesus commands us to seek first for his Kingdom and His RIGHTEOUSNESS (Matt 6:33). His RIGHTEOUSNESS is God's Law written in our hearts (Heb 8:10-12). Because we can only follow Jesus if we LOVE him. This is why Jesus says "If you LOVE me keep my commandments" (John 14:15) and on these two commandments (LOVE to GOD and our Neighbor) hang all the Law and the prophets (Matt 22:37-40). Hope that help you to connect the verses.

You misunderstand Malachi 3:6.

For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 10, 2017

Hi Doverman,

How are you today? Hope you are well. Some comments for you below for your consideration. I like most of what you have said but do have trouble with what you have said below.

Doveaman said:
The Spirit of the law is God’s eternal law. God’s eternal law is the one law eternally expressed by the Father and Son before time began. The letter of the law was temporarily made for man.

As a way of salvation the above statement is true. It is true that we cannot keep God’s Law (10 commandments) in order to gain salvation. Salvation is a gift of God in us only as we have faith in His Word. God’s Law (10 commandments) point out sin. Is God’s Law temporary however? This statement is just not biblical. How would we know what sin is without God’s Law (10 commandments).

You say;

“God’s Law (10 commandments) was temporarily made for man”

God’s Word says:

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Ex 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Ps 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants and the Judgement to come (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12; Exe 36:26-27; Jer 31:33-34). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Ex 20:1-22). God’s 10 commandments are the spoken word of God (Ex 20:1-22). God’s Word does not pass away (Matt 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4 etc.). God’s Law reveals sin to us and the penalty of sin so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Rom 6:23; Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Heb 10:26-28; Rom 1:29-32;2:-9;2Cor 5:10; Heb 9:27; Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood as we have faith (Gal 3:24; Rev 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Rom 13:10). This is why Jesus says to those that love him If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15).

Doveaman said:
The Spirit of the law reveals the righteousness of God.
The letter of the law is obedience to the 10 commandments.

You say:

“The Spirit of the law reveals the righteousness of God.”

God’s Word says:

It is only God’s 10 commandments that reveal what sin is and the penalty of sin (1 John 3:4; Rom 3:20; Rom 6:23) It is the Spirit of God however that will convict us of Sin (John 16:8). You cannot separate the Spirit of God from the Word of God they are both one (1 John 5:7-8). God’s Word defines what righteousness is and that it is God’s Law, his 10 commandments. (Psa 119:172)

You say:

“The letter of the law is obedience to the 10 commandments.”

God’s Word says:

No one can keep the letter of the Law because all God’s Law does is to point out Sin (1 John 3:4). It is our mirror that shows us our condition and that all our own righteousness is as filthy rags (James 1:22-25; Isa 64:6). It is our teacher to bring us to Jesus so that we can have salvation by faith in God’s Word alone because there is nothing that we can do in our own strength to save ourselves. It is a gift of God lest any man shall boast (Rom 6:23). It is God’s Law that brings us to Jesus (Gal 3:24). He has not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance (Matt 9:13).

Many of your statements have truth in them. It is some of your interpretation however that is not biblical that may be a stumbling block not only to yourself but to others that may be reading.

LOVE is the fulfilling of God’s Law In us who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit;

Love is in-deed the fulfilling of God’s Law. This is the promise of the New Covenant. Spoken about by God in the Old Testament and repeated in the New.

Eze 36:26-27,
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh and I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jer 31:33-34,
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 8:10-12,
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people and they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

So now under the new covenant when God changes our heart; we will love God and our neighbour.
if we love God we will not steal
if we love God we will not murder
if we love God we will not commit adultery
if we love God we will not lie
if we love God we will honour our parents
if we love God we will not covet
if we love God we will have no other gods except our God who loves us
if we love God we will not make unto any idols
if we love God we will not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
if we love God we will Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy as he asked us to!

God’s Law has always been central to both the Old and the New Covenant. It is only by the operation of God as we have Faith in His Word that God changes our hearts so that we can love him and love our neighbour that we can walk in his ways. This is why Jesus says its only if you love me we can keep hid commandments (John 14:15)

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psa 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Love is the fulfilling of the God’s Law. I love Jesus and want to follow Him how about you?

If we are knowingly and wilfully breaking any of God’s Laws however we are sinning against God. Sin is the transgression of God’s Law and God’s Word tells us that if we continue in sin the wages of sin is death (1 John 3:4; Rom 6:23). If we choose to follow the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God then we are unbelievers in God’s Word. Sunday Worship is a teaching and tradition of man breaking God’s Law which has no basis in God’s Word. The question remains who do we really follow God or Man? This is the great test that will come to each of us. God’s sheep hear his voice… He that has ears to hear let him hear (Matt 11:15) If we say that we know Jesus and are breaking His commandments God’s Word says we are lying and the truth is not in us (1 John 2:3-4)

Hope this is helpful,

In Christ always

Bob S · Aug 10, 2017

Hi LGW, I truly believe that Paul in 2Cor 3:7-11 is telling us that the 10 commandments were transitory and that they no longer are guide. The You are my brother in Christ ND i PRygift of the Holy Spirit which is God is our guide and lives within each of us. So you see there is no reason for me to delve into your post #325. Until you actually address that fact I don't see any reason to comment on Post #325.

You are my brother in Christ and my goal is to help resolve the ingrained doctrines that bind you to a covenant that is defunct. I compare what the SDA belief system is to what Paul opened the book of Galatians with:
Faith or Works of the Law
3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteous.

Ellen White, the spiritual leader of SDAs, wrote that keeping the Sabbath is vital to our eternal salvation. To me that smaks of salvation by works. What do youu think?

LoveGodsWord · Aug 10, 2017

Bob S said:
Hi LGW, I truly believe that Paul in 2Cor 3:7-11 is telling us that the 10 commandments were transitory and that they no longer are guide. The You are my brother in Christ ND i PRygift of the Holy Spirit which is God is our guide and lives within each of us. So you see there is no reason for me to delve into your post #325. Until you actually address that fact I don't see any reason to comment on Post #325. You are my brother in Christ and my goal is to help resolve the ingrained doctrines that bind you to a covenant that is defunct. I compare what the SDA belief system is to what Paul opened the book of Galatians with: Ellen White, the spiritual leader of SDAs, wrote that keeping the Sabbath is vital to our eternal salvation. To me that smaks of salvation by works. What do youu think?

Hello Bob,

How are you today my friend. I likewise consider you a brother and enjoy our conversations very much and love sharing God's Word with you. Your post however in relation to 2Cor 3:7 has been clearly addressed with the Word of God in posts 325; 331; 335; 339 and 345. What is sad is that you ignore all the scripture I send you because it does not fit your interpretation of it. If you will notice the scriptures I send you seem to contradict your interpretation of the Scriptures. This should be a warning to you because God's Word never contradicts itself. If you see scriptures that seem to contradict your interpretation of God's Word it is because maybe your understanding of God's Word is not correct.

What is sad is that you close your eyes to the scriptures in post 325. The scriptures presented in this post could be a blessing to you and help bring you closer to Jesus. What is important for all of us to remember is that Jesus is the Word of God. I follow no man or woman or Church. I only follow Jesus who is the Word of God. If we reject God's Word we reject Jesus. If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak and I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. (John 12:47-50) I follow Jesus because I love him. Bob do you love Jesus? If you do you would keep His commandments and the 7th Day Sabbath is one of them (Ex 20:8-11)

In Christ Always

Doveaman · Aug 10, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
The 10 commandments represents the character of God. It is only through love that we can obey God.

This is where your whole argument falls apart.

You seem to think that the law of 10 commandments fulfills God’s love, but you have it all backwards.
It is God’s love that fulfills the law of 10 Commandments.
Those who are led by the love of God’s Spirit are fulfilling the spiritual intent of the 10 commandments, and therefore do not need the 10 commandments.
“Whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

The 10 commandments does not represent the character of God.
Love represents the character of God.
“God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him" (1 John 4:16-17).

The 10 commandments does not fulfill God's law.
Love fulfills God's law.
"Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

To fulfill the law is to obey the spiritual intent of the law.
The spiritual intent of the law is love, not the 10 commandments.
The 10 commandments is the letter of the law
Love is the Spirit of the law.
God is Spirit and God is love, and love fulfills the spiritual intent of the law.
“Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

This is the new covenant experience of God writing His Laws in our heart.

No, it is not.

The law of God written in our heart is the Spirit of the law, not the letter.
The Spirit of the law written in our heart is love, not the 10 commandments.
"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...which was engraved in letters on stone" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).
The new covenant is not based on the 10 commandments which was engraved in letters on stone.
Instead, the new covenant is based on the love of the Spirit that is expressed from our hearts.

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

Gentiles who do not have the law of 10 commandments do obey the spiritual intent of the law from their hearts when they love each other.

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

We transgress God's law, not by violating the letter of 10 commandments, but by violating the spiritual intent of God's law to love each other as we love ourselves, because love is the fulfillment of the law. “Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

God’s Law is the standard in the Judgement and it is the definition of righteousness which is forever

No, it is not.

The law of 10 commandments is not the definition of righteousness.
"No one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law"..."Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, 'the righteous will live by faith.' And the law is not based on faith” (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:8-17).

The 7th Day Sabbath is indeed a memorial of creation.

No, it is not.

The creation is the result of God's work.
The 7th day Sabbath is a memorial of God's rest.
Big difference.
"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy...For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but He rested on the seventh day" (Ex 20:8).
The 7th day Sabbath is a memorial/shadow of God's rest, but it is not the reality of God's rest.
Just as independence day is a memorial/shadow of independence, but is not the reality of independence.

It was given with the other 9 commandments to God’s people and make up the Law of God which is also known as the 10 commandments.

The 10 commandments is not God's eternal law. It is not the law the Father and Son lived by from eternity, before time began.
And in the new heaven and earth to come, time and days will cease to exists, and a 7th day observance will be no more.
"There will be no more night there; and they will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun" (Revelations 22:5).

This is where I feel you maybe diverting from scripture and where post 325 goes into more detail that you have not addressed at all. You contradict yourself in this section of your post as you say in one breath quoting the scriptures of Gen 2:1-3 that “God rested on the seventh day of creation week because it was on that day that He ceased from His finished work.” Then in the next breath you are in your own words (not scripture) “The seventh-day rest is only a memorial/shadow of God's finished work, and God's finished work with its memorial/shadow pointed forward to the finished work of Christ on the cross.” How can the 7th Day Sabbath by a Shadow if it is part of the FINISHED WORK of creation?

The 7th day and God's finished work are not the same thing. The 7th day is a part of God's material creation. God's finished work occurred after the 7th day creation was completed. The 7th day of creation week was then sanctified as a memorial/shadow of God's finished work. God's finished work, therefore, is the true Sabbath-rest, and the 7th day memorial was just a shadow of that true rest.

Christians are now called to observe the true Sabbath-rest, and not a mere memorial day: "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own works, just as God did from His" (Hebrews 4:9-10).

When we enter God's true Sabbath-rest we cease from our works of the sinful nature, just as God ceased from His works of the material creation.

Our works of the sinful nature is now a finished work, just as God's works of the material creation is also a finished work.

The other important point you have not addressed from post 325 is when the Sabbath was given. It was given BEFORE the fall of mankind as part of a FINISHED work so it cannot be part of the shadows of ceremonial Laws because mankind had not fallen.

The time in which the 7th day Sabbath was given is not important, because it's only a memorial day. The reality of God's Sabbath-rest is what's important, and the reality of God's Sabbath-rest is when God finished or ceased from His material works, which occurred after the 7th day creation was completed.

You contradict yourself in what you are saying and haven’t addressed post 325 at all. Why?

Are you accusing me of not addressing your post after you ignored the scriptures I posted and the explanation I gave about the "shadow"?

Because you say you agree that the ceremonial laws of Moses are done away at the cross.

I do.

The entire Old Covenant ministry with its earthly sanctuary was a copy and shadow of the true heavenly sanctuary:

“They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven...But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is mediator is superior to the old one.” (Hebrews 8:4-6).

The earthly sanctuary of the Old Covenant was a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary in which Christ now serves.

Hebrews 9 gives us further details of what was included in the copy and shadow of the earthly sanctuary:

“Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary...which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant...and the stone tablets of the covenant.” (Hebrews 9:1-5).

The stone tablets of the covenant, which was the 10 Commandments, was included in the copy and shadow of the earthly sanctuary. The 10 Commandments in the earthly sanctuary was only a shadow of God's eternal truth that is found in Christ, who now serves in the heavenly sanctuary.

"For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; He entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence" (Hebrews 9:24).

Doveaman · Aug 10, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
So now under the new covenant when God changes our heart; we will love God and our neighbour.
if we love God we will not steal
if we love God we will not murder
if we love God we will not commit adultery
if we love God we will not lie
if we love God we will honour our parents
if we love God we will not covet
if we love God we will have no other gods except our God who loves us
if we love God we will not make unto any idols
if we love God we will not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
if we love God we will Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy as he asked us to!

You seem to be confirming my point more than you are confirming yours.

It's as if you are arguing against yourself.

If we are led by the love of God's Spirit, we do not need to rely on the 10 commandments.
Those who love their parents will not dishonor their parents. And you don't need the 10 commandments to know that. Honoring our parents is a basic human instinct imparted by God at birth.

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law of 10 commandments, do honor their parents out of love for their parents, they are showing love to their parents from their hearts, even though they do not have the law of 10 commandments.

Danthemailman · Aug 10, 2017

Bob S said:
Ellen White, the spiritual leader of SDAs, wrote that keeping the Sabbath is vital to our eternal salvation. To me that smacks of salvation by works. What do you think?

That's exactly what it is. Salvation by works. :sigh:

Bob S · Aug 11, 2017

Danthemailman said:
That's exactly what it is. Salvation by works.

Did you notice that LGW will not address that fact or ant other scriptural fact like 2Cor3:7-11 where Paul makes it very clear that no man is any longer under the 10 commandments. How could man be under ant part of the old covenant. It ended when the new covenant began. Seems very clear to me. The problem lies with those who are programed to believe lies taught by those who have no idea bout the real plan of salvation.

Bob S · Aug 11, 2017

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello Bob,

How are you today my friend. I likewise consider you a brother and enjoy our conversations very much and love sharing God's Word with you. Your post however in relation to 2Cor 3:7 has been clearly addressed with the Word of God in posts 325; 331; 335; 339 and 345. What is sad is that you ignore all the scripture I send you because it does not fit your interpretation of it. If you will notice the scriptures I send you seem to contradict your interpretation of the Scriptures. This should be a warning to you because God's Word never contradicts itself. If you see scriptures that seem to contradict your interpretation of God's Word it is because maybe your understanding of God's Word is not correct.

What is sad is that you close your eyes to the scriptures in post 325. The scriptures presented in this post could be a blessing to you and help bring you closer to Jesus. What is important for all of us to remember is that Jesus is the Word of God. I follow no man or woman or Church. I only follow Jesus who is the Word of God. If we reject God's Word we reject Jesus. If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak and I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. (John 12:47-50) I follow Jesus because I love him. Bob do you love Jesus? If you do you would keep His commandments and the 7th Day Sabbath is one of them (Ex 20:8-11)

In Christ Always

Hi my brother, When you will admit that Paul wrote in 2Cor3:7-11 that the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! I will look into your post 325. Until then it seems we are at a stand still. I didn't write those verses and they do not contradict any other part of scripture.

Why are you SDAs so reluctant to reason to the words of Paul. I have had some SDAs tell me that Paul's writings are either fake or should not have been part of the Holy Writ. You certainly are one to avoid discussing his council. As to your words on where your understanding comes from I can only say it seems like you have bought into SDAism hook, line and sinker. I bet if we had a debate about the Sanctuary and the investigative judgement your take would come straight from, who else but, the prophet.

Doveaman · Aug 11, 2017

BobRyan said:
The Ten Commandments define what sin is.and what righteousness is.

No, they do not.

The Ten Commandments do not define righteousness, they only make us aware of sin:

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Romans 3:20-21).

You are obviously contradicting the scriptures.

"Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, 'the righteous will live by faith.' And the law is not based on faith” (Galatians 3:8-17).

The sinful nature is in fact the law of sin and death - at war with the Ten Commandments

The sinful nature is at war with the Spirit, not the Ten Commandments. Why did you even highlight that part in red? You are obviously misquoting the scriptures again:

"For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." (Galatians 5:17-18).

... and in fact exposed by them.

That's about all the Ten Commandments do, they expose sin through death.

The Ten Commandments exposes the sin that already exists in human nature by convicting us of sin and condemning us for sin:

"I had not known sin, except through the law…But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good" -- (Romans 7:9-13).

BobRyan said:
"silly wabbit" - - you cannot refute scripture. Not even one text.

But I can refute the text messages you post online.

BobRyan said:
The text you are so reluctant to quote says this --

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Jeremiah knew that "God's Commandments" included the TEN Commandments when in Jeremiah 31;31-33 Jeremiah says that the NEW Covenant writes the "LAW of God on the heart and mind"

Paul knows in Eph 6:2 that the ONLY unit of LAW that satisfies his statement - is the TEN Commandments

You have no clue what Jeremiah or Paul knew.

There is no '10' in 1 John 5 or Jeremiah 31 or Ephesians 6 -- "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Honoring our parents does not require the 10 Commandments. Honoring our parents is a basic human instinct imparted to us by God at birth:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” (Romans 2:14-15).

For when Gentiles, who do not have the 10 commandments, do honor their parents out of love for their parents, they are showing love for their parents from their hearts, even though they do not have the 10 commandments.

We honor our parents out of love for our parents without relying on the 10 commandments, because we rely on the love of God: “And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.” -- (1 John 4:16-17).

We Christians live without the 10 Commandments just as the Gentiles live without the 10 Commandments. The difference is that the Gentiles are inspired by their natural instinct to love and respect their parents, but we Christians are inspired by God's divine Spirit to love and respect our parents.

BobRyan · Aug 11, 2017

Doveaman said:
No, they do not.

The Ten Commandments do not define righteousness, they only make us aware of sin:

A "distinction without a difference" as we saw here --

God's Law defines what sin is -- right vs wrong.
=============================

KEEP the Commandments - God's Ten Commandments are included as the "Commandments of God"

10 Commandments are
Commandments of God Neh 10:29
Law of God Neh 10:29
Word of God Mark 7:13
Commandment of God Mark 7:6-13
NT Scripture James 2:8
NT Law James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

1John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

John says -
Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.(KJV)

The teaching of Christ: Commandment of God = Word of God = "Moses said" in the case of the TEN Commandments.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Exodus 20
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in that still valid - unit of TEN.

Matt 19 "if you would have eternal life KEEP the Commandments... Which ones?.." then comes Christ list FROM the Ten Commandments.

Romans 7 - quoting the Commandments - from the TEN
Romans 13 - from the TEN
James 2 - from the TEN.

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

Rom 7 Sin defined by the LAW
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Rom 4:15 - where there is no Law there is no sin.

Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

And of course - under the NEW Covenant the "LAW of God written on heart and mind" - Jeremiah 31:31-33 and certainly Jeremiah knew about the TEN.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 11, 2017

Hi Doveaman,

Hope you are well today my friend? Please find some comments below for your consideration.

Doveaman said:
LoveGodsWord said: ↑
So now under the new covenant when God changes our heart; we will love God and our neighbour.
if we love God we will not steal
if we love God we will not murder
if we love God we will not commit adultery
if we love God we will not lie
if we love God we will honour our parents
if we love God we will not covet
if we love God we will have no other gods except our God who loves us
if we love God we will not make unto any idols
if we love God we will not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
if we love God we will Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy as he asked us to!

Doveaman said:
You seem to be confirming my point more than you are confirming yours. It's as if you are arguing against yourself. If we are led by the love of God's Spirit, we do not need to rely on the 10 commandments. Those who love their parents will not dishonour their parents. And you don't need the 10 commandments to know that. Honouring our parents is basic human instinct imparted by God at our birth. “For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15). For when Gentiles, who do not have the law of 10 commandments, do honor their parents out of love for their parents, they show the love for their parents from their hearts, even though they do not have the law of 10 commandments.

Absolutely not! What I have presented above is consistent with everything I have presented unless you are confirming now that “If you love God you will Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy like God asks you to”? Maybe you missed that section in the post I do not know. I have only ever shared that it is only through the Spirit of LOVE that God fulfils His Laws in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Rom 8:1-9; Eze 36:26-27; Heb 8:10-12). This is the New Covenant and is consistent with every post I have written. If we are knowingly and wilfully breaking any of God’s Laws including God’s 7th Day Sabbath we are sinning against God. Sin is the transgression of God’s Law and God’s Word tells us that if we continue in sin the wages of sin is death (1John 3:4; Rom 6:23). If we choose to follow the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God then we are unbelievers in God’s Word. Sunday Worship is a teaching and tradition of man breaking God’s Law and has no basis in God’s Word. The question remains who do we really follow God or Man? This is the great test that will come to each of us. God’s sheep hear his voice…If we say that we know Jesus and are breaking His commandments God’s Word says we are lying and the truth is not in us (1John 2:3-4)

In Christ Always!

Doveaman · Aug 11, 2017

BobRyan said:
A "distinction without a difference" as we saw here --

God's Law defines what sin is -- right vs wrong.
=============================
KEEP the Commandments - God's Ten Commandments are included as the "Commandments of God"

10 Commandments are
Commandments of God Neh 10:29
Law of God Neh 10:29
Word of God Mark 7:13
Commandment of God Mark 7:6-13
NT Scripture James 2:8
NT Law James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10

1John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

John says -
Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.(KJV)

The teaching of Christ: Commandment of God = Word of God = "Moses said" in the case of the TEN Commandments.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Exodus 20
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in that still valid - unit of TEN.

Matt 19 "if you would have eternal life KEEP the Commandments... Which ones?.." then comes Christ list FROM the Ten Commandments.

Romans 7 - quoting the Commandments - from the TEN
Romans 13 - from the TEN
James 2 - from the TEN.

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

Rom 7 Sin defined by the LAW
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Rom 4:15 - where there is no Law there is no sin.

Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

And of course - under the NEW Covenant the "LAW of God written on heart and mind" - Jeremiah 31:31-33 and certainly Jeremiah knew about the TEN.

There is still no '10' in any of those scriptures -- "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

And copy-pasting old posts doesn't change the fact that you are contradicting the scriptures.

You say the law defines righteousness, but the scriptures say righteousness is not by the law, but by faith: "Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, 'the righteous will live by faith.' And the law is not based on faith” (Galatians 3:8-17).

You say the law defines sin, but the scriptures say the law helps us to recognize sin: "Indeed I had not known sin except through the law...But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good." (Romans 7:7-13).

According to you, the law of 10 commandments defines righteousness and sin, but according to scriptures, the law of 10 commandments neither defines righteousness nor sin: "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Romans 3:20-21).

The purpose of the law was to make us conscious of sin by helping us to recognize the sin existing in human nature: "Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—for before the law was given, sin was in the world." (Romans 5:12-13).

Sin existed in human nature before the 10 commandments were given, but when the law of commandments came, we were made conscious of sin through the condemnation of the law: "For apart from the law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death." (Romans 7:7-10).

Sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin had no power to condemn us until after the law was given: "For before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law." (Romans 5:13).

Sin is like a poisonous sting that results in death, but the poison of sin comes from the law: "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." (1 Corinthians 15:56).

Sin without the law is still a painful sting, but because there is no law it does not result in death: For the sinful nature lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the sinful nature; and they are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." (Galatians 5:17-18).

LoveGodsWord · Aug 11, 2017

Hello Doveaman my friend,

How are you today? Hope you are well and thanks for your post. Here are some comments for your consideration

Doveaman said:
This is where your whole argument falls apart. The 10 commandments does not represent the character of God. Love represents the character of God. “God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him" (1 John 4:16-17).

You must be many posts behind already as I have already stated that it is only by Love that any can fulfil God’s Laws. God’s commandments do indeed represent God’s character of Love because Love works no wrong doing towards his neighbour therefore love that can fulfil God’s Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Rom 8:1-9; 13:9-10).

Friend you cannot separate God’s 10 commandments from His Love. Combined this is indeed the character of God! Love is the Spirit of God’s Law. Therefore it is only by Love that God fulfills His Law in us. This is the New Covenant (Eze 36:26-27; Jer 31:33-34; Heb 8:10-12).

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

He that hath my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. If ye love me, keep my commandments. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love and hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. Whoever abides in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abides in death. He that loveth not knows not God; for God is love.

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loves is born of God, and knows God <compare this scripture with does not sin; John 3:6; 9). Whoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed <Seed = Love; 1 John 4:7-8> remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1Jo 5:2-3, Mat 22:36-40, John 14:15; 21: 15:9-10; 1 John 2:3-5; 3:6-10;14; 4:7-8; Rom 13:9-10)

So are you can see you cannot separate God’s Law from LOVE because combined they represent the character of God

Rom 13:9-10,
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

The 7th Day Sabbath is one of the 10. If we knowingly and willfully break it God's Word says we do not know God and are in danger of God's judgement unless we return to God. God is not willing that any of us should be lost and he is calling each one of His people no matter where they may be to hear His voice and return home to him.

Isa 55:6-7,
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

In Christ Always!

LoveGodsWord · Aug 11, 2017

Hi Doveaman,
Some more from God’s Word to consider below.

Doveaman said:
God’s Law is the standard in the Judgement and it is the definition of righteousness which is forever
No, it is not. The law of 10 commandments is not the definition of righteousness. "No one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law"..."Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, 'the righteous will live by faith.' And the law is not based on faith” (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:8-17).

Dear friend, you seem to be trying to build an argument that is not there to start with. No one is telling anyone that you are saved by observing God’s Law. These are your words and not mine. What you are saying does not even address what you quoted. You need to let the Word of God define what righteousness means. How does God’s Word define “Righteousness”?

Psalms 119:172,
My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are “righteousness”.

Hebrew meaning righteousness צדק tsedeq tseh'-dek From H6663; the right (natural, moral or legal) morally and legally right; righteous צדּיק tsaddı̂yq tsad-deek' From H6663; just: - just, lawful, righteous (man).

Greek meaning righteousness δικαιοσύνη dikaiosunē dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay From G1342; equity (of character or act); specifically (Christian) justification: - righteousness.
righteous δίκαιος dikaios dik'-ah-yos From G1349; equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous)

So from God’s Word we have the definition of righteousness. God says the definition of “righteousness” according to His Word is his 10 commandments The Hebrew and Greek meaning of righteousness is to be morally and legally right; lawful character of act, innocent and holy.

Psalms 119:142,
Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

Psalms 9:8
And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Act 17:31
Because he hath appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

James 2:10-12
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak, ye and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Ecc 12:13-14
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

I think you get the picture righteousness is right doing and the very standard of right doing is God’s 10 commandments.

In Christ Always!

LoveGodsWord · Aug 11, 2017

Hi Good friend,

Again for your consideration below.

Doveaman said:
The 10 commandments does not fulfill God's law. Love fulfills God's law. "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10). To fulfill the law is to achieve the spiritual requirements of the law. The spiritual requirements of the law is love, not the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments is the letter of the law
Love is the Spirit of the law. God is love and God is Spirit, and love fulfills the spiritual requirements of the law. “Whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

You seem to be making arguments that are simply not there to be made. I have only ever said LOVE is the fulfilling of God’s Law.

Doveaman said:
This is the new covenant experience of God writing His Laws in our heart.
No, it is not. The law of God written in our heart is the Spirit of the law, not the letter.
The Spirit of the law written in our heart is love, not the 10 commandments. "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...which was engraved in letters on stone" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

Absolutely it is! The New Covenant is God writing His Laws in our heart so we can love Him. Love is the fulfilling of His Laws in us as we walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Rom 8:1-9 Please read Eze 36:26-27; Jer 31:33-34; Heb 8:10-12) What does God's Word say?

Eze 36:26-27,
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart (tables of stone) out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh and I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Heb 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts (LOVE): and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Love is indeed the fulfilling of God’s Law however it is God Word that clearly tells us what sin is. SIN is the transgression (breaking) of any of God’s commandments (1 John 3:4; James 2:8-12) If we knowingly and wilfully break any of God’s 10 commandments we are guilty before God and are in danger of the Judgement to come and do not know God (1 John 2:4)

Doveaman said:
We transgress God's law, not by violating the letter of 10 commandments, but by violating the spiritual requirements of the law to love others as we love ourselves, because love is the fulfillment of the law. “Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

God says that in the New Covenant he wants to write His Laws In our heart. These are God's Words not mine. The 7th Day Sabbath is one of the 10 Commandments. If we love Jesus we should follow him. If we do not follow God's Word then we are an "Unbeliever" and unbelievers have no part in the Kingdom of God.

In Christ Always!

God's Sabbath rest is not a weekly seventh day rest

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