"Ask Jesus Into Your Heart"???

jimmyjimmy

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You are funny.

I point out what is obvious.

If we take your understanding, then the New Testament is all "Christians" are left with.

From Genesis to Malachi, the Prophets spoke to whom? The Hebrews. (Using your principle, we must discount these books)

In the Gospels, Jesus spoke to whom?

The disciples and the Jews, and in only two places did He ever address a "Gentile". (Using your principle, we must therefore discount everything in the Gospels except the passages where Jesus addressed the Gentiles)

Acts is basically, the history of the primitive church. We must discount this also.

So what we are left with, according to your own words and principles you said,



all we have for a Bible is Romans through Revelation, minus Hebrews.

Just because the Council of Trent said:

"Praeterea ad coercenda petulantia ingenia decernit, ut nemo, suae prudentiae innixus, in rebus fidei et morum ad aedificationem doctrinae Christianae pertinentium, Sacram Scripturam ad suos sensus contorquens, contra eum sensum, quem tenuit et tenet sancta mater Ecclesia, cuius est iudicare de vero sensu et interpretatione Scripturarum Sanctarum, aut etiam contra unanimen consensum Patrum, ipsam Scripturam Sacram interpretari audeat, etiamsi huiusmodi interpretationes nullo umquam tempore in lucem edendae forent. Qui contravenerint, per Ordinarios declarentur, et poenis a iure statutis puniantur." (Latin version)

"Furthermore, in order to restrain petulant spirits, It decrees, that no one, relying on his own skill, shall,—in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, —wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,—whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,—hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers; even though such interpretations were never (intended) to be at any time published. Contraveners shall be made known by their Ordinaries, and be punished with the penalties by law established."

Council of Trent, Session IV, Decree Concerning The Edition And Use Of The Sacred Books

Don't mean a blessed thing to me.

I'm not part of the RCC, I never will be part of the RCC, so I'm not worried about anything the RCC can say is due to me.

Talk about following blindly.

Good luck with your P.O.V.

God Bless

Till all are one.

As much as I would rather stick a rusty fork into my own eye than agree with Light of the East - he has a point.

Christians, especially individualistic, western Christians tend to read the Bible as if it were directly addressed to them. Almost all of the texts aren't. That's really not a difficult point for me to argue, so I'll assume you understand it.

This does not mean that there is no application for Christians. All of scripture has application for Christians, but much of it doesn't have direct application, and most of it is not addressed (directly) to Christians, which again is an easy argument to make.

One example of a NT text which is a perfect example of where many Christians get it wrong is The Great Commission. Christ is addressing the 11. It's right in the text: "Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee. . ."

Jesus then proceeds to tell them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Now, we, as Reformed believers understand that none of what Jesus commanded can be a directive to all Christians, because we don't believe that all Christians should teach; we don't allow any and all Christians to perform baptisms, and we don't send all Christians into the world as missionaries. These directives were given to those with authority: the leaders of the Church. Jesus begins with, "All authority. . ., and ends with, "therefore", and I can hear RC Sproul's voice whenever I see the word, "therefore", instructing me to ask myself, what is therefore "there" "for"?

Certainly Jesus is passing authority to the 11 before he goes to the cross.
 
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DeaconDean

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Certainly Jesus is passing authority to the 11 before he goes to the cross.

John 16 Jesus is indeed speaking to the disciples.

But, the promise of the coming comforter, and the work that He is do to continue God's work on this earth, to restrict that to "only the disciples since Jesus was speaking to them" is ridiculous.

If you take those words to their logical conclusion, you cannot avoid anything I said. I cannot be proven wrong.

Like I said, if you follow what was said, any part of the scriptures that the prophets, God, or Jesus, if they are not addressing Gentiles, it must be excluded.

When said the when he is come, he will lead you to all truth is meant only for the disciples is laughable.

I see nothing in the verse that speaks of "authority".

When you first come to Christ, what are you?

A disciple.

I will not, and cannot accept that the promise of the coming "Comforter" and the work He was given to do, would be restricted to only the disciples.

That means that YOU, ME, AND EVERY OTHER SO-CALLED CHRISTIAN HERE, can never ever say that the Holy Spirit revealed to me, or led me to_______!

According to you and the other member, that was restricted only to the 11.

Yea...right.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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John 16 Jesus is indeed speaking to the disciples.

But, the promise of the coming comforter, and the work that He is do to continue God's work on this earth, to restrict that to "only the disciples since Jesus was speaking to them" is ridiculous.

If you take those words to their logical conclusion, you cannot avoid anything I said. I cannot be proven wrong.

Like I said, if you follow what was said, any part of the scriptures that the prophets, God, or Jesus, if they are not addressing Gentiles, it must be excluded.

When said the when he is come, he will lead you to all truth is meant only for the disciples is laughable.

I see nothing in the verse that speaks of "authority".

When you first come to Christ, what are you?

A disciple.

I will not, and cannot accept that the promise of the coming "Comforter" and the work He was given to do, would be restricted to only the disciples.

That means that YOU, ME, AND EVERY OTHER SO-CALLED CHRISTIAN HERE, can never ever say that the Holy Spirit revealed to me, or led me to_______!

According to you and the other member, that was restricted only to the 11.

Yea...right.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Sorry, I confused you for someone who was capable of cool-headed, rational discussion.

I didn't say that I fully agreed with him. I said that he had a point. He takes it too far, but he has a point. That's all.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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By making an argument from silence?
Nope, by whether it has been taught in the Bible.

These aren't instructions to believers to be baptized, these are about what baptism is and means.
In the context of believers, not unbelievers.

If Baptism is the means by which God brings people into the faith, by delivering forgiveness of sins, giving the Holy Spirit, etc then Baptism is precisely that.
So you are suggesting baptism would automatically generate faith in unbelievers to make them suddenly believe in Christ and have faith? Why didn't John the Baptist baptize the Pharisees then?

So when St. Paul says "when you were buried with him in baptism" he doesn't mean "when you were buried with him in baptism"? That's a neat trick.
Note that the "you" were referring to the believers in Colossae:

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, to the holy ones and faithful brothers in Christ in Colossae: grace to you and peace from God our Father. (Colossians 1:1)

No. By the same token, if someone confesses faith in Christ early in their life and then walks away from Christ later in life they are throwing away their salvation. That's what apostasy is.
That is an invalid comparison. Baptized infants never confessed faith in Christ when they were baptized.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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according tot he Catholic church, specifically the Catholic Catechism, when an infanti baptized, they are to be counted among the faithful.
Isn't ViaCrucis Lutheran? Yet he put "Evangelical Catholic" in his profile though.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Isn't ViaCrucis Lutheran? Yet he put "Evangelical Catholic" in his profile though.

Lutherans never stopped being Catholic. We're not Roman Catholics, but we are Catholic. Also, the term the original Reformers used to refer to themselves and what they were doing was Evangelical (German: Evangelische) and is the historic word to refer to Lutherans in Germany (as well as Reformed), though since the Prussian Union the Evangelische Kirche has referred to the "official" Protestant church in Germany through the union of Lutherans and Reformed; more confessionally minded Lutheran bodies often seem to refer to themselves as Evangelische-Lutherische today. As such "Evangelical Catholic" is just another way to say Lutheran.

Neither Luther, nor the Lutheran churches ever sought to establish a new church apart from the Holy Catholic Church, and our Confessions make it plain that nothing that we teach or practice is contrary the Catholic Church and that we are devout Catholic Christians. Fundamentally the Lutheran squabble is with Rome, hence "Romanism" and "Papalism" as terms which were used to criticize what we saw as the errors of Rome (though these terms have largely become little more than pejorative slurs today).

From the Lutheran perspective we never left the Catholic Church, and we in fact remain faithful Catholic Christians even to this day. The breach in communion with Rome is, ultimately, a tragedy of history, this schism is not something to be celebrated, but mourned over. And we should look forward in hope that one day Roman Catholics and Lutherans will be able to come together at the same Table together.

Nope, by whether it has been taught in the Bible.

So you take a position that anything not explicitly taught in Scripture shouldn't be accepted by Christians? If that's the case, then the position is self-defeating, as Scripture never teaches this.

In the context of believers, not unbelievers.

Believers don't need to be baptized, because they are already baptized, that's why they are believers.

So you are suggesting baptism would automatically generate faith in unbelievers to make them suddenly believe in Christ and have faith? Why didn't John the Baptist baptize the Pharisees then?

The baptism of John isn't Christian Baptism (c.f. Acts 19:1-7). But, yes, Scripture says that faith comes by hearing and hearing is by the word of Christ (Romans 10:17), faith is the supernatural gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). So if Baptism is what Scripture says it is, then the baptized person has faith. They can throw that faith away, they can shipwreck it, turn from it, dismiss it, etc but that doesn't change the fact that God's word is inviolate.

Note that the "you" were referring to the believers in Colossae:

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, to the holy ones and faithful brothers in Christ in Colossae: grace to you and peace from God our Father. (Colossians 1:1)

Paul is speaking, past tense, of their baptism. This isn't rocket science.

That is an invalid comparison. Baptized infants never confessed faith in Christ when they were baptized.

I suspected that if I said "No" and left it at that you were going to charge that then baptism was to no effect, my additional comments were preemptive: if someone throws away their faith in Christ they are throwing away their salvation. That doesn't make null God's word in Baptism anymore than it renders the person's confession of faith null if they later reject it.

God's word is inviolate, true, and certain.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Light of the East

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So what we are left with, according to your own words and principles you said,

all we have for a Bible is Romans through Revelation, minus Hebrews.

Just because the Council of Trent said:

Well, first of all, since I am Orthodox in my theology (and hope to convert to the Orthodox Church in the future) then I don't really care what Trent said, as neither do you.

However, the Church did speak regarding the canon of Scripture at the Council of Chalcedon. Since you have said that you are a student of history, I am sure you know that there were many, many epistles and "gospels" floating around at that time which were either claiming to be of divine origin, or were actually being proposed by bishops of the Church as being divine. The letter of Clement was one of these, and was actually read in the Church every Sunday.

The council examined all the books existing and gave us our canon of Scripture today. Once again, this shows that they exerted their authority - God given authority to the bishops - and that authority was, until the Protestant Reformation, considered the final word on the Scriptures by all except pestilent heretics, who were not part of the Church.

Dean - it's about authority. Either you have it or you don't, and as I said earlier (and you appeared to get a nice laugh out of this) I don't find either your name or mine listed in the Bible as authorities over the Church.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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So you take a position that anything not explicitly taught in Scripture shouldn't be accepted by Christians? If that's the case, then the position is self-defeating, as Scripture never teaches this.
That's not my position. I'd say almost everything fall into one of the below categories:

(1) The scripture explicitly teaches that it is true/false or right/wrong
(2) The scripture indirectly teaches that it is true/false or right/wrong
(3) The scripture does not say whether it is true/false or right/wrong

I would consider (3) and anything that goes against (1) and (2) as unbiblical and cannot be treated as a dogma.

In the case of the belief that baptism would produce faith in unbelievers, I'd say it falls under (2): the scripture indirectly states that it is false. Why? Please read further to my responses below.

Believers don't need to be baptized, because they are already baptized, that's why they are believers.
So you are saying people can only believe in Jesus Christ until after they are baptized, not before? But every instances we find in the Bible are believe then baptized, not one instance that unbeliever got baptized and became believer.

Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38)

Those who accepted his message were baptized (Acts 2:41)

but once they began to believe Philip as he preached the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, men and women alike were baptized. Even Simon himself believed and, after being baptized, became devoted to Philip (Acts 8:12-13)

Crispus, the synagogue official, came to believe in the Lord along with his entire household, and many of the Corinthians who heard believed and were baptized (Acts 18:8)


But, yes, Scripture says that faith comes by hearing and hearing is by the word of Christ (Romans 10:17), faith is the supernatural gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). So if Baptism is what Scripture says it is, then the baptized person has faith. They can throw that faith away, they can shipwreck it, turn from it, dismiss it, etc but that doesn't change the fact that God's word is inviolate.
None of these verses say baptism would create faith, or would make an unbeliever believe.

Paul is speaking, past tense, of their baptism. This isn't rocket science.
But Colossians 2:12 does not say baptism would create faith for unbelievers:

In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NABRE)

I suspected that if I said "No" and left it at that you were going to charge that then baptism was to no effect, my additional comments were preemptive: if someone throws away their faith in Christ they are throwing away their salvation. That doesn't make null God's word in Baptism anymore than it renders the person's confession of faith null if they later reject it.
Baptism only has effect when someone has faith; otherwise, it would just be another ritual washing that cannot perfect the worshiper in conscience, and such regulation concerning the flesh was only imposed until the new covenant:

In this way the holy Spirit shows that the way into the sanctuary had not yet been revealed while the outer tabernacle still had its place. This is a symbol of the present time, in which gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the worshiper in conscience but only in matters of food and drink and various ritual washings: regulations concerning the flesh, imposed until the time of the new order. (Hebrews 9:8-10)
 
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ViaCrucis

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That's not my position. I'd say almost everything fall into one of the below categories:

(1) The scripture explicitly teaches that it is true/false or right/wrong
(2) The scripture indirectly teaches that it is true/false or right/wrong
(3) The scripture does not say whether it is true/false or right/wrong

I would consider (3) and anything that goes against (1) and (2) as unbiblical and cannot be treated as a dogma.

In the case of the belief that baptism would produce faith in unbelievers, I'd say it falls under (2): the scripture indirectly states that it is false. Why? Please read further to my responses below.

So you are saying people can only believe in Jesus Christ until after they are baptized, not before? But every instances we find in the Bible are believe then baptized, not one instance that unbeliever got baptized and became believer.

No, I'm saying that one can only believe in Jesus Christ once they have been given faith. And faith comes to us from outside of ourselves as a gift, given through Means, in Lutheran parlance, "Word and Sacrament". The preaching of the Word delivers faith, but so does Holy Baptism. Since we believe that the Sacraments are God's Word connected with a material element, in the case of Baptism that's water, in the case of the Holy Eucharist that's bread and wine. That God operates through His Sacraments to achieve the purposes for which He gave them. The reason for Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, to be buried with Christ, clothed with Christ, and indeed our very salvation--all these things are explicitly taught in Scripture. As such Baptism delivers faith because it is, as St. Paul writes in Ephesians 5:26, a washing of water with the word, τῷ λουτρῷ τοῦ ὕδατος ἐν ῥήματι. Baptism, as the connection of water and word together, accomplishes what it promises, and herein God's word is delivered connected as it is to the water of Baptism.

Peter [said] to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins (Acts 2:38)

Those who accepted his message were baptized (Acts 2:41)

but once they began to believe Philip as he preached the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, men and women alike were baptized. Even Simon himself believed and, after being baptized, became devoted to Philip (Acts 8:12-13)

Crispus, the synagogue official, came to believe in the Lord along with his entire household, and many of the Corinthians who heard believed and were baptized (Acts 18:8)


None of these verses say baptism would create faith, or would make an unbeliever believe.

And yet in each case Baptism comes as the means of bringing people into Christ, into the Church, into the household of faith. When Peter said "repent and be baptized" he was speaking to unbelievers; the Samaritans likewise believed and were baptized, and with Crispus, and with the Cornelius, and with every other case mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles.

Preaching and baptizing happen in unison as the Church's call and commission, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..."

But Colossians 2:12 does not say baptism would create faith for unbelievers:

In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:11-12 NABRE)

But what it does say is what Baptism is and does, "You were buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead" that's the meaning and significance of Holy Baptism.

Baptism only has effect when someone has faith; otherwise, it would just be another ritual washing that cannot perfect the worshiper in conscience, and such regulation concerning the flesh was only imposed until the new covenant:

In this way the holy Spirit shows that the way into the sanctuary had not yet been revealed while the outer tabernacle still had its place. This is a symbol of the present time, in which gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the worshiper in conscience but only in matters of food and drink and various ritual washings: regulations concerning the flesh, imposed until the time of the new order. (Hebrews 9:8-10)

Baptism isn't just another ritual washing, as St. Peter himself says, "not to the cleansing of dirt from the body, but of the pledge of a new conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21).

It boils down to this:

Either Baptism is what Scripture says it is, and does what Scripture says it does, which the Church has always believed and confessed; in which case to deprive our children from the waters of Baptism is no different than to deprive our children of Christ and His Gospel.

If someone doesn't believe Baptism accomplishes anything at all, but is merely a ritual washing that is only a symbol of faith, then it doesn't matter anyway. It doesn't matter whether we baptize our children, it doesn't matter if we don't baptize anyone ever--if Baptism does not itself accomplish anything at all and is just getting wet.

Thus if we are correct, and Baptism is new birth in Christ from God, affecting forgiveness, making us new creations, and bringing us into union with the death and resurrection of Jesus (etc) it would be foolish and unfaithful to deprive our children from coming to Jesus. And if we are wrong, then nothing has happened at all and it doesn't matter anyway.

Me? If I ever have kids I plan on having them baptized. Because I want my children to know Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Lily of Valleys

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No, I'm saying that one can only believe in Jesus Christ once they have been given faith. And faith comes to us from outside of ourselves as a gift, given through Means, in Lutheran parlance, "Word and Sacrament". The preaching of the Word delivers faith, but so does Holy Baptism.
The preaching of the Word does not necessarily result in faith. They need to believe it:

In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

Since we believe that the Sacraments are God's Word connected with a material element, in the case of Baptism that's water, in the case of the Holy Eucharist that's bread and wine. That God operates through His Sacraments to achieve the purposes for which He gave them. The reason for Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, to be buried with Christ, clothed with Christ, and indeed our very salvation--all these things are explicitly taught in Scripture
We don't need baptism for the forgiveness of sins or to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, or even to be saved. We only need to believe!

Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. (Acts 10:43)

For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 10:46-48)

the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. (Romans 3:21-22)


As such Baptism delivers faith because it is, as St. Paul writes in Ephesians 5:26, a washing of water with the word, τῷ λουτρῷ τοῦ ὕδατος ἐν ῥήματι. Baptism, as the connection of water and word together, accomplishes what it promises, and herein God's word is delivered connected as it is to the water of Baptism.
Ephesians 5:26 does not say baptism delivers faith. "Church" and "her" are obviously referring to believers, not unbelievers:

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. (Ephesians 5:26)

And yet in each case Baptism comes as the means of bringing people into Christ, into the Church, into the household of faith. When Peter said "repent and be baptized" he was speaking to unbelievers; the Samaritans likewise believed and were baptized, and with Crispus, and with the Cornelius, and with every other case mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles.
Yes, Peter was speaking to unbelievers when he said "repent and be baptized", but only those who accepted his message were baptized:

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day. (Acts 2:41)

As you said, Samaritans believed and were baptized, not that baptism actually produces faith in those who don't believe (e.g. infants).

Preaching and baptizing happen in unison as the Church's call and commission, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..."
But infants haven't been preached and believed before they are baptized.

Baptism isn't just another ritual washing, as St. Peter himself says, "not to the cleansing of dirt from the body, but of the pledge of a new conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21).
According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, baptism only saves us because we have earnestly sought a conscience reconciled to God, which means we are saved because we have earnestly sought a conscience reconciled to God, not because of the ritual washing itself:

"which now saves us not because in receiving it we have put away the filth of the flesh, but because we have earnestly sought a conscience reconciled to God"

It boils down to this:

Either Baptism is what Scripture says it is, and does what Scripture says it does, which the Church has always believed and confessed; in which case to deprive our children from the waters of Baptism is no different than to deprive our children of Christ and His Gospel.

If someone doesn't believe Baptism accomplishes anything at all, but is merely a ritual washing that is only a symbol of faith, then it doesn't matter anyway. It doesn't matter whether we baptize our children, it doesn't matter if we don't baptize anyone ever--if Baptism does not itself accomplish anything at all and is just getting wet.

Thus if we are correct, and Baptism is new birth in Christ from God, affecting forgiveness, making us new creations, and bringing us into union with the death and resurrection of Jesus (etc) it would be foolish and unfaithful to deprive our children from coming to Jesus. And if we are wrong, then nothing has happened at all and it doesn't matter anyway.

Me? If I ever have kids I plan on having them baptized. Because I want my children to know Jesus.
I do think all believers should get baptized because that's what Jesus taught His disciples to do, and what the apostles actually did in Acts: preached => believed => repented => baptized.

There is no harm in baptizing infants as long as they know that it doesn't give them a free ticket to heaven, and they still need to hear the gospel, believe and accept Jesus Christ to be saved. The down side about infant baptism is that the person usually doesn't think it is necessary for them to get baptized "again" after they have truly believed in Jesus Christ, but that is what I think all believers should do.

None of the churches I have ever attended practice infant baptism. All of them have infant dedication ceremonies where the parents commit to raise their children in faith and teach them about God. Those churches provide Sunday school and worship for children so they learn about God since a young age. Whether the children know Jesus or not depending on whether we have taught them about Jesus, not on whether they have been baptized as an infant.

a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law (Romans 3:28)
 
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Noxot

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Let me put this in a nutshell. The simple fact is that you don't understand authority. God gives authority to those whom He chooses. This is a covenant principle. The Apostles were given that authority. You and I were not. As you say, case closed.

why do you judge if you/others have authority or not when only God gets to do that? I think it's because you are the authority and you have laid down what seems good to yourself. you certainly act like it, but like the cops who give themselves special permissions in the name of the law so you too have given your church special permissions in the name of your conceptions or acceptance of whatever.... about how God orders reality.

not saying it's bad, just saying God is the final authority and how would we know what God does with each of us?

do psychological traits such as orderliness restrict the Spirit of God? because you can certainly break down a persons ideas about God and say they think that way because of how their biology and personality tends to be. it does not mean it holds final truth about Gods will. we all partake of God as much as we can, that was long ago established by many different authorities.
 
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Cassidy Bennett

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What is the proper response to the proclamation of the gospel? What do we ask of an unbeliever when we proclaim the gospel to him?

Do we ask him to say a particular prayer, e.g., the "sinners prayer"?

Do we ask him to "invite Jesus into his heart"?

If in a church setting, do we ask him to raise his hand or come forward for prayer?

What's the very first thing you tell, or ask of, someone after you present him with the gospel?

The first thing you ask of a non believer is if they want to hear about God.

A simple "formula" would be something like this: elaborate on these ideas.
Step 1: God's world - explain about the creator.
Step 2: God's standard - perfection
Step 3: God must punish sin
Step 4: God's predicament - he has loved us with an everlasting love.
Step 5: Heaven is a free gift - saved by grace (Jesus) not works
Step 6: Its your decision - Do you want to receive or take hold of Christ?
If yes...pray " Heavenly Father, I am sorry for my sins. I repent, Lord, of all my sins and desire to change my life and live for you. I give you control of my life as I ask for your forgiveness and freely receive your grace and mercy so that I might live eternally with you in heaven. Help me to love you as you love me and to love others as myself. "

Explain that they are already saved. They can move forward by reading the bible, finding a good church, praying and talking/ Listening with God, listening to Christian music, getting baptized, helping others. Again those things do not save.... they are already saved.

Taking "Jesus into your heart" is biblical. It's off the greatest commandment. In those days Jews believed the heart was the whole body... mind and soul. Taking Jesus into your whole being or loving God.

If they want to come forward in church that's up to them. People may want time to process everything instead and should not be pressured.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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The first thing you ask of a non believer is if they want to hear about God.

A simple "formula" would be something like this: elaborate on these ideas.
Step 1: God's world - explain about the creator.
Step 2: God's standard - perfection
Step 3: God must punish sin
Step 4: God's predicament - he has loved us with an everlasting love.
Step 5: Heaven is a free gift - saved by grace (Jesus) not works
Step 6: Its your decision - Do you want to receive or take hold of Christ?
If yes...pray " Heavenly Father, I am sorry for my sins. I repent, Lord, of all my sins and desire to change my life and live for you. I give you control of my life as I ask for your forgiveness and freely receive your grace and mercy so that I might live eternally with you in heaven. Help me to love you as you love me and to love others as myself. "

Explain that they are already saved. They can move forward by reading the bible, finding a good church, praying and talking/ Listening with God, listening to Christian music, getting baptized, helping others. Again those things do not save.... they are already saved.

Taking "Jesus into your heart" is biblical. It's off the greatest commandment. In those days Jews believed the heart was the whole body... mind and soul. Taking Jesus into your whole being or loving God.

If they want to come forward in church that's up to them. People may want time to process everything instead and should not be pressured.

That's quite a list. Do you find evidence of such a list in scripture? If so, where. If not, how have you arrived at it?

Thanks.
 
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Cassidy Bennett

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That's quite a list. Do you find evidence of such a list in scripture? If so, where. If not, how have you arrived at it?

Thanks.

You will not find a formula for sharing the word in scripture.

It is based on "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect" in scripture.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Why do you judge if you/others have authority or not when only God gets to do that? I think it's because you are the authority and you have laid down what seems good to yourself. you certainly act like it, but like the cops who give themselves special permissions in the name of the law so you too have given your church special permissions in the name of your conceptions or acceptance of whatever.... about how God orders reality.

You miss the whole point of what I am saying. We have scriptural evidence of where God put His authority.

1. Authority is covenantal. The word covenant appears over 300 times in the OT and NT. We live in the New Covenant. Therefore, covenant principles apply. One of those principles is that of HIERARCHY, or leadership. Not everyone has the right to be a leader. God appoints those whom He desires to lead. Covenant leadership began with Adam, who was the covenant head of mankind. Then, with each expansion of the covenant, such as with Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and Christ, that authority was passed down. We see how God regards His covenant leaders by watching what happens when they are opposed. You remember Dathan and Abihu? Didn't go very well for them in their "protest" anism against Moses, did it?

2. Christ Jesus, who is the Last Adam (1 Corin. 15:45) and the King of the New Covenant, God's appointed leader, took His authority and gave it to the Apostles to carry out His mission on earth. We see this in John 20:23 where Christ gives the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles, a thing that is reserved for God alone. Jesus Christ, our God, grants His authority to the heads of the Church - the Apostles.

3. The Apostles passed on their offices and authority by the laying on of hands as mentioned in


1Ti 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.


This is the same laying on of hands which took place when a covenant head over a tribal family would die. The authority and headship of the covenant unit (the family) was passed on to the oldest son.

not saying it's bad, just saying God is the final authority and how would we know what God does with each of us?

Ray Sutton, a Protestant writer, says that unless there is visible authority on earth, God does not have authority. Without visible authority to rule over us, there is no authority that God has, and anyone can claim, as Deacon Dean wishes to do, to have authority and to rule over the consciences of others.

do psychological traits such as orderliness restrict the Spirit of God? because you can certainly break down a persons ideas about God and say they think that way because of how their biology and personality tends to be. it does not mean it holds final truth about Gods will. we all partake of God as much as we can, that was long ago established by many different authorities.

There is only one authority - the Church. All others are bogus and self-appointed.
 
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Noxot

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Light of the East

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i'm sure that is a very comforting belief for you to hold

Fine. So now I'll play this game your way. From the Scriptures alone (sola scriptura) show me anywhere that

1.) YOU or any OTHER PROTESTANT was given the keys to the Kingdom of God.

2.) YOU or any OTHER PROTESTANT was given the authority to forgive sins.

3.) YOU or any OTHER PROTESTANT was named by name as head of the Church on earth.

4. YOU or any OTHER PROTESTANT was told that if you don't like the Church, you can form another assembly and call it "The Church."

5. YOU or any OTHER PROTESTANT are named as the "pillar and ground of truth," which would mean that you can interpret and translate the Scriptures without error.

6.) YOU or any OTHER PROTESTANT can show a succession of authority which goes in a straight line all the way back to the Apostles, by the laying on of hands, which would give you the same authority they were given in John 20:23.

I'll be waiting....
 
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Noxot

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Fine. So now I'll play this game your way. From the Scriptures alone (sola scriptura) show me anywhere that

1.) YOU or any OTHER PROTESTANT was given the keys to the Kingdom of God.

2.) YOU or any OTHER PROTESTANT was given the authority to forgive sins.

3.) YOU or any OTHER PROTESTANT was named by name as head of the Church on earth.

4. YOU or any OTHER PROTESTANT was told that if you don't like the Church, you can form another assembly and call it "The Church."

5. YOU or any OTHER PROTESTANT are named as the "pillar and ground of truth," which would mean that you can interpret and translate the Scriptures without error.

6.) YOU or any OTHER PROTESTANT can show a succession of authority which goes in a straight line all the way back to the Apostles, by the laying on of hands, which would give you the same authority they were given in John 20:23.

I'll be waiting....

i'm not a protestant lol.
 
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