Did God forgive our debt of sin or did Jesus pay our debt of sin?

SeventyOne said:

The scriptures show us that only the innocent have any standing before the Father. He demonstrated that over and over again, starting with Adam and Eve, when the animals innocent of sin were slain to cover them. Since then, all the sacrifices of the innocent animals pointed to only one thing, the coming sacrifice of the only innocent man.

Don't forget, this was the plan from the beginning. He willingly inserted Himself into His creation, and forever took on the nature of the very thing that He made. Colossians 2:14 describes to us that our debt before the father was a legal debt. A person with such a debt is not the only one allowed to satisfy the debt. For example, my home mortgage is a legal debt. If someone else comes along and wants to pay off that debt, they have every right to do so. Their payment is just as viable as any payment I might make.

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I fully agree someone can “pay” your mortgage, but then the mortgage lender cannot also say: “I forgive you your mortgage debt”, can he?

SeventyOne said:

Likewise, our legal debt was paid by another. The difference here is that we actually have no standing before the Father to pay that debt ourselves. We don't have the proper 'currency'. It would be just as if I tried to pay off my home with bags of M&M's. They wouldn't be acceptable for payment.

People need to get used to the idea that our unpayable debt was paid by someone else who could pay it, and in the only manner acceptable, by the sacrifice of the innocent. This is not God somehow being mean or bloodthirsty. He demonstrates that only the innocent can be with Him, and we simply do not qualify on our own, and that demonstration was very dramatic and certainly catches our attention.

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Yes, it does present God as being very cruel and blood thirsty, since you are saying that is what He requires (personally needs) for payment. Does God need anything?

Is your God so weak and powerless that He cannot forgive sins without having innocent blood, since in the OT we find God did forgive without any mention of Christ’s sacrifice?

How can you possible see any fairness and justice in having Christ tortured, humiliated and murdered to satisfy a need God has so God can now forgive us?

AlexDTX said:

You are confused because you see yourself as an individual instead of a corporate person. We are all Adam. Even Eve, who was named by Adam is called Adam by God in Genesis 5:2. The sins of all mankind are in Adam. It is this same thinking that underlies the writer of Hebrews that says that Levi paid tithes to Melchisdec when he was in the loins of Abraham (Hebrews 7:9 & 10). All the sins of the world were in Adam in that all mankind was in Adam. Jesus became the second Adam took all the sins of Adam upon himself so that Adam was fully punished in Christ. Your sins are forgiven because as an individual in the corporate man of Adam you had not yet committed those sins, although you had committed your own individual sins as well. When you trust in Christ, you then became part of the corporate Christ called the body of Christ, who was justified and resurrected.

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Most of the time when it is everyone’s problem I do not take ownership of it as even being my problem.

Since every man woman and child was in the “loins” of Adam, you say we all sinned from conception?

What keeps me from blaming Adam instead of myself?

Making it “corporate” does distant me personally responsibility and personal salvation, but is that the way the New Testament presents it?

AlexDTX said:

See the above answer.

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The above does not explain: “How is it correct for God to say “Jesus paid your debt in full and I forgave your debt in full”, or did God not say or suggest that?”

AlexDTX said:

It is true that our salvation is a legal matter, but is also an organic matter. By the legal expediency of another paying the debt we are able to enter the organic union with the Holy Spirit. It is only fair and just if the one paying the debt does so freely. In the parable of the laborers, a farmer hires people for a penny early in the morning. He sees others standing around in the afternoon and hires them for the same wage. Lastly there are some who he hires in the evening for the same wage. Those hired in the morning then assumed that they would be paid more since they worked longer, but the farmer declared he had the right to do what he wants with his own money. Those hired in the morning had agreed to the terms and had no just complaint for they got what was agreed upon. Also, the psalmist speaking of Jesus, said sacrifice and offering you did not want, but I came to do thy will. The Word agreed to do the will of the Father, so, yes, it is just and fair.

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That is not making it just/fair, it cannot be both paid in full and fully forgiven.

AlexDTX said:

You err in thinking of your self. As I said in the first question, He paid for all the sins of the world in Adam, and you were in Adam, when that was done.

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How does the New Testament especially continue this concept of corporate salvation?

AlexDTX said:

Loving much refers to us in what we did before salvation. It is the individual gratitude we all have. Those who do not think they did much wrong will still keep an attitude of self justification, and have less love than those who know they did much wrong, yet were forgiven nonetheless.

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AlexDTX said:

But quantity of sin is not the issue. St. Augustine in his book, Confessions, tells the story of how as a youth he stole an apple from a neighbor's tree. He admits that he was not hungry at the time, nor had any other need. Afterwards, though, when he thought about his deed, he saw the depth of his own depravity in that one act. It was an act of pure evil and total selfishness. The stolen apple did not harm the farmer, but it was Augustine's realization that to steal it was nonetheless extremely sinful. Augustine had a glimpse of the divine perspective which is perfect and holy. This is the same as God warning Adam that eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would bring his death and destruction to the entire creation. This is the same as James saying if you commit one sin you have committed them all. For once perfection is cracked, that crack spread to the rest of the perfect creation. A cracked coffee mug is ruined because it will eventually break and bacteria gets into the crack which can cause sickness to the user.

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AlexDTX said:

Love and righteousness are the same thing. Paul said when you love another you fulfill the law. Your question misunderstands forgiveness. We forgive others not because they have repented and we find it in our heart to forgive them, but because their sin is already paid for by Christ, even though they may not be Christians. We still need them to repent and bring restitution if we are to continue a relationship with them, but we can forgive them for Christ's sake. Likewise with God. He gave all mankind grace before the Mosaic law, nevertheless death reigned because the payment had not been made. God gave that grace because of the certainty of Christ's payment for sin to come. Nonetheless, none went to heaven. They remained in sheol until Christ died and rose again. This opens a different discussion about people who never hear the Gospel, of which I do not want to address now because that is irrelevant to answering the question of God's love and forgiveness.

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I will not address everything in the paragraph. We are commanded to forgive everyone unconditionally, but like we see in Matt. 18 forgiveness itself may not take place if the person being forgiven does not accept the forgiveness as pure charity.

AlexDTX said:

This is the reason for the incarnation. You are in Adam already. When Christ became a man, He too was in Adam. So you were in Christ already when he died on the cross since He was in Adam and you and I were in Adam, too. However, we are no longer in Adam but Christ now that we are born again. This is what being born again means. Through the resurrection, you and I were born again into Christ, and no longer Adam, for the old man was crucified with Christ.

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So was Christ accountable for Adam’s sin?

Did Christ have “original sin”?

AlexDTX said:

Correct, if the innocent was unwilling. But Jesus was willing because of his love for all mankind and for all the creation. The work of Christ goes beyond humanity, for he is the new material of the new creation to come that will never, ever sin again.

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Justice does not depend on the person being willing or not, it is still unjust to torture the innocent.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

Just be careful not to fall into the trap that has God the Father angry at us. That's not Christian.

Forgive me...

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God can be upset with His children and will Lovingly discipline us if at all possible

amariselle said:

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. - Romans 6:23

This debt of sin had to be satisfied, and there was no amount of animal sacrifices of "good works" done by mankind that could do so. (Hebrews 10:1-23) Only the perfect sacrifice of the sinless spotless Lamb of God is sufficient to purge our sins. (John 1:29)

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Why does “This debt of sin had to be satisfied” and not just forgiven by a Loving God?

Are you saying God is blood thirsty and must be satisfied with blood?

Where does it say our sins are “purged” and what do you mean by that because our sins are forgiven?

amariselle said:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3:14-18

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:36

This promised salvation through the Messiah is also foretold throughout the OT, Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 are both excellent examples of this. Jesus also confirmed that the Scriptures pointed to Him. (John 5:39)

Paul shares the Gospel of our salvation in Christ and confirms it was fulfilled according to Scripture.

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures... - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Quite simply, there is no other sacrifice for sin and no other name by which we can be saved. (Acts 4:12)

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I have no issue with Christ’s torture; humiliation and murder being our atonement sacrifice and ransom payment (it is spoken of as an actual ransom payment and not like a ransom payment). But the sacrifice is not the whole atonement process and forgiveness seems to come after the correct fulfilment of the entire process (Lev. 5).

RGW00 said:

Jesus did. God sent Jesus here to die for us, in human form. We are to follow Jesus and God, but the only way to Heaven is through Jesus. They both were in existence during creation.

The reason that God sent Him down is because He couldn't pay the debt in Heaven. God is perfect and doesn't live in sin.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Notice here, if the wages of sin is death, God cannot die. He is eternal. He sent someone down to die on Earth in order to accomplish His gift of salvation. Jesus practically went through Hell on Earth (probably worse) for the period of time He was on the cross.

Something else that isn't necessarily in the Bible that is purely my opinion, not fact, but I think Jesus died also to give us a glimpse into Hell and to show us that that will be eternity for us if we don't follow Him which could be why it is so detailed how graphic it was.

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So you feel the wages of sin is physical death?

A few people did not physically die so were they sinless?

You are still not addressing why this wage (death) had to be paid and God was powerless to just forgive this debt?

-V- said:

Your analogy is off. It's more like the judge forgives the debt and then pays it himself, not having your brother pay it.

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The debt is owed God so why would God have to pay himself and why did God come up with this cruel bloody rule that an innocent person will be murdered to pay the debt off? Is God to weak or powerless to just forgive sin and not have to go through this unrelated torture of a sinless person?

Would God take pleasure in torturing, humiliating and murdering Himself?

Think about this: Sinning against God is unbelievably huge, so would a totally unpayable debt be greater than a debt that could be paid?

-V- said:

How is it forgiven *and* paid for?

Suppose a friend comes over to your house and breaks your lamp. You tell your friend that you forgive him and he doesn't owe you anything. You still need to replace the lamp, and since you've forgiven your friend, YOU are the one who pays for the lamp. So the breaking of the lamp is both forgiven and paid for.

Our sin is breaking the lamp. God forgives us, we don't pay for our sin. God then paid for the sin Himself (through Jesus).

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We are not talking about anything that can be “replaced” since there is no way to “replace” rebellious disobedience directly against God with anything. Would you have me believe God torturing, humiliating and murdering Christ would “replace”/satisfy what I did?

-V- said:

One may argue that is more "loving", but "love" is not the sole quality of God. God has another quality - He is just. There must be justice. Sin just being ignored and swept under the rug would not be justice.

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Think about this:

There is a, one of a kind, Tiffany vase on your parent’s mantel that has been handed down by your great grandmother. You, as a young person, get angry with your parents and smash the vase. You are later sorry about it and repent and your loving parent can easily forgive you. Since this was not your first rebellious action your father, in an act of Love, collects every little piece of the vase and you willingly work together with your father hours each night for a month painstakingly gluing the vase back together. The vase is returned to the mantel to be kept as a show piece, but according to Antique Road Show, it is worthless. Working with your father helped you develop a much stronger relationship, comfort in being around him and appreciation for his Love.

Was your father fair/just and would others see this as being fair treatment? Did this “punishment” help resolve the issue?

Was restitution made or was reconciliation made and would you feel comfortable/ justified standing by your father in the future?

Suppose after smashing the vase, repenting and forgiveness, your older brother says he will work with your father putting the vase together, so you can keep up with your social life. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

Suppose Jesus the magician waved his hands over the smashed vase and restored it perfectly to the previous condition, so there is really very little for you to be forgiven of or for you to do. Would this scenario allow you to stand comfortable and justified by your father?

What are the benefits of being lovingly disciplined?

Suppose it is not you that breaks the vase but your neighbor breaks into your house because he does not like your family being so nice and smashes the Tiffany vase, but he is caught on a security camera. Your father goes to your neighbor with the box of pieces and offers to do the same thing with him as he offered to do with you, but the neighbor refuses. Your father explains: everything is caught on camera and he will be fined and go to jail, but the neighbor, although sorry about being caught, still refuses. The neighbor loses all he has and spends 10 years in jail. So was the neighbor fairly disciplined or fairly punished?

How does the neighbor’s punishment equal your discipline and how is it not equal?

Was the neighbor forgiven and if not why not?


Justice is not served by having just “someone” pay for rebellious disobedience, since justice requires the offender to be disciplined and not some willing innocent individual?

-V- said:

When there is a monetary debt, courts allow substitutionary payments all the time. They don't care who pays, just as long as it is paid. We don't typically allow substitutionary payments for jail time, because that is something you can pay. If you have no money, it doesn't matter, you don't need money to spend time in jail. God allows substitutionary payment for sin because the price is one that you simply can't pay. There's no other way to pay the debt to God than to have someone else other than us pay it.

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We are talking about rebellious disobedience and not some monetary debt. Having God punish a willing Christ by torturing, humiliating and murdering him is not just, fair, or Loving for the guilty party (us). We need Loving personal disciplining by our Father.

-V- said:

If the innocent *volunteers* to pay it because you can not, I don't see the injustice. And don't forget the Judge who imposed the sentence is the innocent One volunteering to pay it.

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In any court the judge would be unfair/unjust to torture and murder an innocent person (even a willing volunteer) to allow the guilty to go free.

Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4 said:

Well , if you think about it your judge and your advocate is the same person in your case , so one person is paying your debt in full and the other is forgiving you in full . Moreover you have a witness inside you who will prove that you are not guilty and it's the same person as judge and advocate , i don't think you can be made guilty in this case

Jesus himself on cross said paid in full or is it done depending on which bible you use , meaning paid in full forever .

He could pay for everybody at once because he is infinite God , and we are just finite creatures in finite world .

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I knew of no translation which had Christ saying just prior to dying “paid in full”, since he said “It is finished” prior to his death.

Is our Debt to God or Christ or both?

OrthodoxyUSA said:

The Psalms say as much.
If his sons forsake My law, and if they walk not in My
judgements, If My statutes they profane, and keep not My
commandments, I will visit their iniquities with a rod, and
their injustices with scourges.
But My mercy will I not disperse away from them, nor will I
wrong them in My truth.

Forgive me...

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Very good!

amariselle said:

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. - Romans 6:23

Hebrews 9

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Paul in Gal. 6: 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

The eternal life is contrasted with destruction (hell) and those that gave up sowing after the flesh did not reap destruction and started sowing after the Spirit did not receive the reward of (hell), so why can’t God do this without having Christ go to the cross?

amariselle said:

No. He is a righteous and Holy God.

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It sounds very much like God is blood thirsty and that is the way many see it when explained this way.

amariselle said:

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. - Hebrews 1:1-4

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Not familiar with the KJV translation of that verse others use cleansed or purified, so what are you trying to convey with “purged”?

amariselle said:

Christ's sacrifice is the "whole atonement", we receive His finished work through faith.

God bless.

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So there was no part the individual played in the atonement process for unintentional sins as described in Lev. 5?

Aseyesee said:

This comes under the heading of an end from the beginning.

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself from the foundation of the world.

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Do not see how that addresses my questions?