Are Israel and the Church Distinct?

stuart lawrence

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Clearer the way it is clear to you can only be the result of being led of your academic mind in your deductions. I'm afraid that wouldnt lead you into spiritual truth
Yep, I see it from one angle, the plain words of OT prophets written in huge swathes of scripture
 
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DeaconDean

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The promises and covenants were not set aside with the inclusion of the Gentiles, we were grafted in like wild branches grafted into a domesticated vine. We love and worship the same God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I am not going to get embroiled in this, I just want to add to the fire the teaching of "historic dispensationalism".

Israel (Hebrews, Jews, ethnic Hebrws, or whatever is the popular term today), God's promises, covenants, dealings with them were put "on hold" when Jesus was crucified. We are now in the "age of grace" whereby anybody saved is regarded as "spiritual Israel". The "world clock" is on hold at the 69th week, with the promises, covenants being restored when the preverbal 70th week begins.

Like I said, just throwing that out there.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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stuart lawrence

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However:

Where is the wise man, where is the scholar, where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1cor1:20

Do not deceive yourselves, if anyone of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this world, he should become a fool so that he may become wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: he catches the wise in their craftiness
And again: the Lord knows the thoughts of the wise are futile
1cor3:18-20
 
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Ken Rank

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In some places in Scripture there is an obvious distinction between the two. But in other places there appears to be a profound continuity between Israel and the Church.

In what way is OT/NT Israel distinct from the NT church?

In what way is OT/NT Israel to be identified with the church?

I had the priveledge of writing this last year for a certain group of people. I am sharing it only because of the history that is captured here that we don't often weigh into our studies. Every claim worth noting is end-noted with verses references. Blessings.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The Holy Scriptures declare that God made a covenant with Abraham, and within that covenant was a promise. Abraham would become the father of many nations, with descendants so numerous that no man could count them.[1] Scripture is not silent on how God’s promise would manifest; however, a great deal of time would pass before the fullness of His promise was realized. That journey began when the promise given to Abraham was passed on to his son Isaac as an oath, and then from Isaac to his son Jacob as a statute. It would continue into subsequent generations in the form of an everlasting covenant to a set-apart nation called Israel—the descendants of Jacob.[2]

Israel, like all nations before and after, would have times of peace and prosperity as well as times of war and disorder. It was during the reigns of King David and King Solomon that Israel enjoyed its greatest period of national blessing. But immediately after Solomon’s reign, conditions changed dramatically. The nation of Israel split into two separate kingdoms: Judah to the south and Israel to the north.[3] Judah predominantly continued to walk in God’s statutes and commandments, while the Northern Kingdom of Israel, prophetically known as Ephraim or Joseph, fell into a downward spiral of idolatry. God repeatedly warned the Northern Kingdom that continued disobedience would bring expulsion from the Land, but those warnings went unheeded as Israel refused to repent.[4]

Ultimately Assyria conquered Israel and took its inhabitants into exile, where they assimilated into Assyrian culture and accepted their many gods.[5] And so the God of Israel fulfilled His ominous promise, found first in Deuteronomy 28–30[6] and declared again many times in the Prophets.[7] God drove Israel even farther into the nations,[8] giving them up to their idols while simultaneously declaring them to be “not My people.” [9]They became known as the “lost sheep of the House of Israel” and were scattered as a mixed multitude to the four corners of the earth.[10]

Yet the grace of God knows no bounds, and despite His anger with the Northern Kingdom, His ominous promise also contained a pathway to restoration. When as individuals and as a nation Israel would repent and turn their hearts back toward Him, hearing and obeying His voice, He promised to gather them back from the nations into which they were scattered. Then He would circumcise their hearts and the hearts of their descendants so they might live again as a people committed to God.[11] Those who were called “not My people” would one day again hear the words, “You are sons of the Living God.”[12]

This call to repentance, which went out into all the nations, came from His anointed servant. Through Him, the rebuilding of the House of Israel began. Two thousand years ago, Yeshua of Nazareth came, in His own words, to call “the lost sheep of the House of Israel.”[13] Though He lived among and addressed the descendants of the Southern Kingdom of Judah, the weight of His mission was clearly aimed at turning the hearts of Ephraim, the Northern Kingdom, back to the God of Israel. He trained twelve students to continue His work after He was gone and told them to “go to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.”[14] Since that time, by the Holy Spirit, many millions around the world have turned to the God of Israel and have been marked as His sheep. These “prodigal sons” [15] were given enough understanding to remain separate from the world, but not enough to regain full understanding of their identity. One day, however, that started to change as the great awakening promised by God began to dawn.[16]

I believe this promised awakening began over the last few decades and that we are not only witnesses to this awakening but participants as well.[17] Being drawn to the Torah, to the Land, and to the people of the Land while retaining the testimony of Yeshua, many now believe themselves to be the “B’ney Yosef”—the “Children of Joseph”—prophetically called “Ephraim,”[18] a people who are being called out of the nations,[19] now and once again part of the Commonwealth of Israel.[20] And as part of this “called-out assembly,” we stand on the promise that God will one day join us to the House of Judah (the Jewish People) to become one united Israel, never again to be divided.[21]

[1] Gen. 13:6, 15:5, 17:3-8

[2] Ps. 105:8-10. See also Gen. 17:1-9, 26:1-5, 35:9-12.

[3] 1 Kings 12; 2 Chron. 10

[4] 1 Kings 11:29-35; 2 Kings 17:6-22; Hos. 11:5

[5] 2 Kings 15:29, 18:9-12

[6] Though these three chapters reveal the full picture, God’s intent is summed up well in Deut. 30:1-6.

[7] Lev. 26:33; Deut. 4:23-27; Hos. 1. See also Deut. 28:25, 37, 64 and Jer. 50:17.

[8] Isa. 11:12; Ezek. 28:25-26, 34:13

[9] Hos. 1:9

[10] 1 Kings 22:17; Jer. 50:6

[11] Deut. 30:1-6

[12] Hos. 1:10, 2:23

[13] Matt. 15:24

[14] Matt. 10:5-6

[15] Luke 15:11-32. Many believe this parable is speaking of Judah (the older brother) and Ephraim (the younger brother).

[16] Ezek. 37:4-11; Matt. 24:32-34

[17] It was not until the mid-1990s that assumed “Gentiles” began to be drawn to the Torah, the Land, and the people of the Land.

[18] Gen. 48:19; Isa. 11:13; Ezek. 37:19

[19] The Greek word translated as “church” is ekklesia. It simply means “to be called out.”

[20] Eph. 2:12-19 (Key verses are 12 and 19.)

[21] Jer. 31:31-34/Heb. 8:8-11; Ezek. 37:15-19
 
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ViaCrucis

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In some places in Scripture there is an obvious distinction between the two. But in other places there appears to be a profound continuity between Israel and the Church.

In what way is OT/NT Israel distinct from the NT church?

In the sense that the Jews are heirs of the ancient covenants, though there are many (most) who do not have faith in Christ. I think Scripture touches upon the hope that, ultimately, all of earthly Israel will have salvation in Christ--how that ultimately works out is not revealed to us.

In what way is OT/NT Israel to be identified with the church?

Even as Christ is the fulfillment of all the promises and ancient covenants which are realized in Him we, who are in Christ, share in the fullness of those promises whether we be Jew or Gentile. As such the Church and Israel are one and the same people. The Church is Israel, and Israel is the Church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Open Heart

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In some places in Scripture there is an obvious distinction between the two. But in other places there appears to be a profound continuity between Israel and the Church.

In what way is OT/NT Israel distinct from the NT church?

In what way is OT/NT Israel to be identified with the church?

As a Jew who is a Christian, these questions are right up my ally.

Israel and the Church are not the same thing, although an individual can be a part of both groups.

Israel is a tribal group, a PEOPLE descended from Abraham, including those converts who have been adopted in such as Ruth, Rahab, etc. The Church is a voluntary association of assorted people who share a faith in Jesus Christ and have been baptized into new life.

Abraham was given certain promises by God, which are unconditional, such as unnumbered descendants, many nations and kings coming from him, the Land of Canaan belonging to him and his offspring through Isaac forever. One of the promises was a spiritual one, which was that his seed would benefit the whole world.

The church is not the tribal descendants of Abraham, and so are not entitled to the earthly promises. But Christians ARE the spiritual children of Abraham, and so do inherit the spiritual promise: Christ is the seed of Abraham that has come to save the world.

There are also different covenants for Israel and the Church.

Israel was given the Law, and the sign of the covenant is circumcision (meaning if one becomes ritually circumcised, one is agreeing to take on the Law). There are 613 laws, of which 10 were written by God's own hand (the rest were given by God orally). There are two laws which sum up all the rest: Love God with all your heart, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. The reward for keeping this covenant is to live in the Promised Land. Oh, the land is ALWAYS Israel's, but whether Israel lives in it or not depends on whether they keep the covenant.

The Church are those who have entered into the New Covenant. They have repented of their sins, believed and professed that Christ died, is risen, and will come again, are baptized, and now walk in his ways. Their reward is freedom from the chains of sin, gradual transformation of the mind, and eternal life.

The NT Church was built upon Judaism. While Judaism can stand alone as a religion without Christianity, Christianity cannot stand without Judaism. It is our roots, it permeates our being. Our Lord and Savior himself was an observant Jew who fulfilled every aspect of the Law, giving the example for future believing Jews (Gentiles are a different matter). All of the first Christians, like the disciples, belonged to both groups: Israel AND the Church. James told Paul that there were thousands of believing Jews in Jerusalem, all of whom were zealous for Torah.

But that is an uncommon thing these days. After the bar Kochba rebellion, in which Messianic Jews refused to fight alongside Rabbinical Jews against the Romans, MJ's were kicked out of the synagogues. The Christian backlash was to hate Judaism (right back at ya!), and thus Christianity became a Gentile thing. It was a terrible thing when the Church broke it's ties with Israel. Until those ties are restored, something will be lacking.
 
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Blade

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Right now... ANYONE on this planet that HEARS Jesus is lord and rejects Him.. GOD FOR BID and Father forgive me.... are lost for ever. Being JEWISH will not save anyone. That is NOT what was born from above or born again.

Christ made it very clear about the LAW. Jesus came and died....there is no other sacrifice that can will did take away sins. As our brother John said.. behold the lamb of God that takes away the SINS OF THE WORLD! Jesus is the only way in. God LOVES every other nation out there the same.


But I do know...right now... Jesus came...and He is the ONLY way in period. I pray for Israel..and EVERY other nation the same. For.. I KNOW MY Father loves EACH the same
 
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Open Heart

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I pray for Israel..and EVERY other nation the same.
I'm glad you pray for Israel. But Israel is NOT the same as every other Nation. God set Israel apart. Israel is the chosen people. Always will be.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Christian Church and today's state of Israel are in no way connected
Christianity is Spiritual Israel- contending with that is contending with the whole of historical Christian orthodoxy.
Stop trying to make Christianity second to heretics.
I am not going to get embroiled in this, I just want to add to the fire the teaching of "historic dispensationalism"...........
Sounds like this is getting more into the doctrine of "Dispensationalism", which I quit debating years ago.......

Dispensationalism
Dispensationalism
Dispensationalism | Grace Online Library

Dispensationalism
has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place. My own experience bears witness to the truth of what I say.............

National Israel is cursed forever !
National Israel is cursed forever!

quote OP:
Many have been deceived to think that Gods Israel, to whom all the promises were made, is a particular race of people, but its not, Gods Israel to whom pertains the promises is ethnically diversified, comprised of men and women of all nationalites, its not a people of race, but of grace..

Jesus has given many indications that Israel according to the flesh was not the chosen People of God..and that their nation would be cut off even from its earthly privileges of once being in a National Covenant relationship with God..

Matt 21 43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The word taken here is the greek word airo: And means: cause to cease

Jesus Christ death on the cross caused their end as Gods national Covenant People and later the confirmation of that was seen by the armies coming and destroying their worship capital..
So His taking away their privilege, caused it to cease..

Heb 8: 13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away/cease.

The National Covenant of Israel has become obsolete and Has ceased to exist, it has poof, vanished away...............
 
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Dkh587

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The National Covenant of Israel has become obsolete and Has ceased to exist, it has poof, vanished away...............

Did you forget that the Renewed Covenant according to Jeremiah 31:31-33 is only with the house of Yahudah(Judah) & Israel?

You say the Covenant is gone, but yet God prophesied that he would renew the covenant with the house of Yahudah & Israel. He didn't say the new covenant would be with Gentiles.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Sounds like this is getting more into the doctrine of "Dispensationalism", which I quit debating years ago.......

Dispensationalism
Dispensationalism
Dispensationalism | Grace Online Library

Dispensationalism
has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place. My own experience bears witness to the truth of what I say.............

National Israel is cursed forever !
National Israel is cursed forever!

quote OP:
Many have been deceived to think that Gods Israel, to whom all the promises were made, is a particular race of people, but its not, Gods Israel to whom pertains the promises is ethnically diversified, comprised of men and women of all nationalites, its not a people of race, but of grace..

Jesus has given many indications that Israel according to the flesh was not the chosen People of God..and that their nation would be cut off even from its earthly privileges of once being in a National Covenant relationship with God..

Matt 21 43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The word taken here is the greek word airo: And means: cause to cease

Jesus Christ death on the cross caused their end as Gods national Covenant People and later the confirmation of that was seen by the armies coming and destroying their worship capital..
So His taking away their privilege, caused it to cease..

Heb 8: 13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away/cease.

The National Covenant of Israel has become obsolete and Has ceased to exist, it has poof, vanished away...............
And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of hadad rimon in the plains of Megiddo.
The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of shimei and their wives, and all of the rest of the clans and their wives
zech ch12:10-14
 
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Followers4christ

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We must remember that Israel, the nation, is very special to God. We read in Deuteronomy 7:6-8 these words: "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt."

God's eternal purpose is to bless the world through Israel. Already He has done so in measure, for "salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22), but the fullness of future blessing is indicated in the wondrous promise of Isaiah 27:6: "In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit."

The declaration that "salvation is from the Jews” suggests our immeasurable debt to Israel. All that we have worth having has come to us through the Jews. Our Bible is a Jewish Book, and our Savior is a Jewish Savior. Let us never forget to pray for God's chosen people.

Should Christians support the nation of Israel?

"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,“The Deliverer will come from Zion. He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” 27 “And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable," (Rom. 11:25-29).

It is apparent from the above Scripture that God is not finished with Israel. Paul tells us that a partial hardening has happened to Israel. This is so the Gentiles can be included in the covenantal faithfulness of God in his redemptive work. This was prophesied in Genesis 12:3 and reiterated in Galatians 3:8. In those two verses, God says that in Abraham all the nations will be blessed. Paul quotes Gen. 12:3 in Galatians and calls it the gospel.

Is God finished with Israel? | carm

God calls Israel the “apple of His eye" which is a term of endearment (Duet. 32:10, Zech. 2:8).

God adds a blessing to those nations and people who bless Israel and a curse on those who curse Israel (Gen. 12:2-3). Do these blessings and cursings still apply? I do not see why they don’t since God changes not (Malachi 3:6). God was seen as the husband of Israel (Jer. 3:14). God is evidently still concerned over Israel, saying in 2 Chronicles 6:6, “Yet I have chosen Jerusalem, that My name may be there, and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel." Wherever God places His name is where He still places His love. Jesus wept over Jerusalem, knowing what their fate held, “As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it" (Luke 19:41).

This may be the very reason that God has prospered the United States. America is one of the few nations that have chosen to be her ally but that seems to have recently began to change. When America withdraws her support and defense of Israel, God could take His hand of blessing off of the U.S. Perhaps He has already begun to do so since relations with Israel have cooled off lately.

There are dozens of Scriptures where God says that we should pray for the peace of Israel. In Psalm 122:6 it says, “Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: “May those who love you be secure."

Why Should We Pray for Israel? A Christian Perspective
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
The National Covenant of Israel has become obsolete and Has ceased to exist, it has poof, vanished away...............
Did you forget that the Renewed Covenant according to Jeremiah 31:31-33 is only with the house of Yahudah(Judah) & Israel?

You say the Covenant is gone, but yet God prophesied that he would renew the covenant with the house of Yahudah & Israel. He didn't say the new covenant would be with Gentiles.
That wasn't my quote, but taken from this link. You can argue that over there if ya like.

National Israel is cursed forever !
National Israel is cursed forever!


You say the Covenant is gone, but yet God prophesied that he would renew the covenant with the house of Yahudah & Israel. He didn't say the new covenant would be with Gentiles
IMHO, evensome/most Christians are not very knowledgeble about the Houses/Nations/Kingdoms of Israel and Judah.
The House of Judah consists of the tribes of Judah, Levi and Benjamin [those 3 are also mentioned among the 12 tribes shown in Revelation].
Here is an interesting thread on the 12 tribes in Revelation a person mentioned forming a prayer, according to the meaning of the names of the Tribes:

12 Tribes in Revelation 7 form a prayer?

The 12 tribes are not in order of the births (Judah is at the top here). Also, Dan and half tribe of Ephraim are missing, but the half tribe of Manasseh is mentioned]

Reve 7:
1. Judah= "I will praise YAHWeY" 2. Reuben= "He looked on my humiliation" 3. Gad= "In raid" 4. Asher= "Happy am I" 5. Naphtali= "My wrestling" 6. Manasseh= "Making me to forget" 7. Simeon= "He hears me" 8. Levi= "and obligated me" 9. Issachar= "Gave me hire"10. Zebulun= "a dowry" 11. Joseph= " he took away my reproach" 12. Benjamin= "by Son of His right hand"

I will praise the Lord for he has looked on me and granted good fortune.
I am happy because my wrestling, God is making me to forget.
God hears me and is joined to me. He has purchased me a dwelling
and will add to me, the Son of His right hand.

=============================================
IMHO, even some/most Christians are not very knowledgeble about the Houses/Nations/Kingdoms of Israel and Judah

All Articles - Here a little, there a little - Index

The Two Houses Of Israel - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy
THE TWO HOUSES OF ISRAEL

There is a general error among most Christians and a lot of Jews regarding the identity of the children of Israel. Because of a general lack of historical understanding, most Christians believe that the Jews are ALL of the people chosen by God in the Old Testament.
Additionally, many Christians believe that they belong to an unrelated group known biblically as "Gentiles." In this article, we are going to show from the Scriptures that both of these conclusions are founded on incorrect assumptions.........

First, let's examine the Scriptures to see who God chose as His own special people:.........
 
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Followers4christ

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But I do know...right now... Jesus came...and He is the ONLY way in period. I pray for Israel..and EVERY other nation the same. For.. I KNOW MY Father loves EACH the same

That's not very biblical. God said Israel was the “apple of His eye" (Duet. 32:10, Zech. 2:8) and in 2 chronicles 6:6 God said he placed His name on Israel. Did he do any of that for any other nation? No only one nation and we are told to pray for Israel dozens of times in the Bible. So let's not play games that Israel is just like any other nation when it is the birth place of our faith and it's out of Israel that saved us all.
 
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Christian Church and today's state of Israel are in no way connected

Well let's see our Bible is a Jewish book, Our Savior is a Jewish Savior and as the Bible declears in John 4:22 "salvation is from the Jews”. The nation of Israel is not only the birth place of our faith but it's out of Israel which we are saved. So we the church and Israel are very much connected and we are told to pray for Israel many times in the Bible.
 
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God's dealings of the gentile church and the jews are different in this respect. Firstly, God does not deal with them at the same time. He deals with the Israelites as a nation but deals with the Gentiles individually as a Church. The Gentile church is a bouquet of different flowers or different nationalities and will be a very small number.

God's dealings with Israel was in the natural realm, natural war, promised land, harvests and so on. They are more political orientated or influential if you want to call it that.

God deals with the Gentile Church or Bride in the Spiritual Realm. Spiritual warfare if you know Her history through the last 2000 years and Her end time promise will be the change of our bodies, the rapture if you will.

When the Jews rejected the gospel it wen to the gentiles. Likewise the gentile majority's rejection will turn the gospel back to the jews, the 144 000.

Acts 14:36
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Romans 11:25
“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
 
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