Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

OrthodoxyUSA said:

Not everything that Rome did was wrong, and yes they did many bad things...

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And the RC feeling is mutual.

However, not every tradition was concocted. Compare their worship to the Eastern Churches from which they inherited the "Holy Traditions". "Holy Traditions" are those that come to us as revealed by Christ and His Apostles. Where we find all of the ancient Apostolic Churches agreeing we can be certain that it is the faith once delivered to the Saints.

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Which is determined by examination of the only wholly inspired substantive body of express Divine revelation, the Scriptures, and here in particular the record of what the NT church believed. In which we see:
Zero prayers to anyone else in Heaven by God.

Zero instances of NT pastors being referred by the distinctive word used for a separate class of sacerdotal believers. All believers are called to sacrifice (Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9) and all constitute the only priesthood (hieráteuma) in the NT church, that of all believers, (1Pt. 2:5,9; Re 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). But nowhere are NT pastors distinctively titled hiereus, and the idea of the NT presbuteros being a distinctive sacerdotal class titled "hiereus" (later "priests" in English) was a later development.

Zero instances of NT pastors conducting the Lord's supper as a sacrifice for sin, to be consumed as the physical body of Christ in order to obtain spiritual life.

nstead, the primary work of NT pastors is that of prayer and preaching. (Act 6:3,4; 2 Tim.4:2) by which they “feed the flock” (Acts 20:28; 1Pt. 5:2) ) for the word is called spiritual "milk," (1Co. 3:22; 1Pt. 1:22) and "meat," (Heb. 5:12-14) what is said to "nourish" the souls of believers and build them, up, (1Timothy 4:6; Acts 20:32) and believing it is how the lost obtain life in themselves. (1 Timothy 4:6; ;Acts 15:7-9; cf. Psalms 19:7)

Rather than ]the Lord's supper being the central focus of the NT church, it is only manifestly described to any real degree in one epistle in the record of the NT church (Acts onward, which writings show us how the NT church understood the gospels) and , and nowhere is the Lord's supper described as spiritual food, and the means of obtaining spiritual life in oneself.
More here by the grace of God.

Not everything that a Christian would want to know about Christianity is written in the NT scriptures...

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The recourse to another stream of Divine revelation is one that the devil himself has appealed to and as seen in cults, but while "might want to know" would be a more careful valid qualifier which would allow for commentaries, etc., and which Scripture materially provides for, God has always provided what believers need to know for obedience, even from Genesis 2, and writing is God's means of preservation, (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15,18-19; Ps. 19:7-11; 119; John 20:31; Acts 17:11; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15;Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Lk. 24:44,45; Acts 17:11)

And as is abundantly evidenced, the word of God/the Lord was normally written, even if sometimes first being spoken, and that as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

Thus even the veracity of oral preaching was subject to testing by that which was written, (Acts 17:11) and not vice versa, and in doing so we see the Catholic traditions of men exposed as such.

for instance, it was the daily habit (multiple times a day) of Christ and the Apostles to pray the Psaltar. That's why we have the psalms in our bible.

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Why not say He sung them as Levites are said to have done? The Lord may have also followed Jewish liturgy of morning, afternoon, and evening prayer services, but the Holy Spirit of Christ has not been negligent to provide what is required for the life of faith in His inspired Scriptures, which includes teachers, but such are subject to Scripture, which is were we must part from Catholicism.

Note also that the main attempted supports for PTCBIH are covered in my original post to this thread. The lengths of extrapolation that Caths must resort to for what is supposed to be a basic common practice in the NT church is itself an argument against it

Where is the unfriendly button?

Forgive me...

GUANO said:

I believe in the resurrection of the dead to eternal life. I'm weary of any religion that downplays or denies the existence of death as that puts Christianity in the same group as every other pagan religion and removes the necessary role of christ. I dont think the belief is particularly as damaging as others nor do I believe it affects the state of ones salvation...

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Okay, I was just wondering, as that was unclear from your post.

Thank you.

buzuxi02 said:

Every ancient canon including Athanasius lists the Book of Baruch as canonical, and it is indeed read from in Liturgy, No protestant bible has this OT book, this book was UNIVERSALLY recognized by all until the 16th century west.

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Maybe in the East, however, Jerome does not mention Baruch (yet includes Esther) in his "Prologue to the Books of the Kings" where he lays out the Hebrew TaNaKh. At the very least Western church ancient attestation of the 66 book canon. Not 16th century machinations.

Jerome on the Canon of Scripture

The first of these books is called Bresith, to which we give the name Genesis. The second, Elle Smoth, which bears the name Exodus; the third, Vaiecra, that is Leviticus; the fourth, Vaiedabber, which we call Numbers; the fifth, Elle Addabarim, which is entitled Deuteronomy. These are the five books of Moses, which they properly call Thorath, that is, 'Law.'

The second class is composed of the Prophets, and they begin with Jesus the son of Nave, which among them is called Joshua ben Nun. Next in the series is Sophtim, that is the book of Judges; and in the same book they include Ruth, because the events narrated occurred in the days of the Judges. Then comes Samuel, which we call First and Second Kings. The fourth is Malachim, that is, Kings, which is contained in the third and fourth volumes of Kings. And it is far better to say Malachim, that is Kings, than Malachoth, that is Kingdoms. For the author does not describe the Kingdoms of many nations, but that of one people, the people of Israel, which is comprised in the twelve tribes. The fifth is Isaiah; the sixth, Jeremiah; the seventh, Ezekiel; and the eighth is the book of the Twelve Prophets, which is called among them Thare Asra.

To the third class belong the Hagiographa, of which the first book begins with Job; the second with David, whose writings they divide into five parts and comprise in one volume of Psalms. The third is Solomon, in three books: Proverbs, which they call Parables, that is Masaloth; Ecclesiastes, that is Coeleth; and the Song of Songs, which they denote by the title Sir Assirim. The sixth is Daniel; the seventh, Dabre Aiamim, that is, Words of Days, which we may more descriptively call a chronicle of the whole of the sacred history, the book that amongst us is called First and Second Paralipomenon [Chronicles]. The eighth is Ezra, which itself is likewise divided amongst Greeks and Latins into two books; the ninth is Esther.

And so there are also twenty-two books of the Old Law; that is, five of Moses, eight of the prophets, nine of the Hagiographa, though some include Ruth and Kinoth (Lamentations) amongst the Hagiographa, and think that these books ought to be reckoned separately; we should thus have twenty-four books of the ancient Law. And these the Apocalypse of John represents by the twenty-four elders, who adore the Lamb and offer their crowns with lowered visage, while in their presence stand the four living creatures with eyes before and behind, that is, looking to the past and the future, and with unwearied voice crying, "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, who was and is and will be."---Jerome (Preface to the Books of the Kings. Circa A.D. 391)

buzuxi02 said:

Yes there are deuterocanonical books of the NT with Revelation being one of them.

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Yes I was aware of Revelation, however did not know the EO church actually called any NT book deuterocanonical. It's interesting to look at the development of the canon in the East. For example the Ethiopian Orthodox contains the largest canon including 1Enoch.

buzuxi02 said:

For example here is what Cyril of Jerusalem said in his catechetical lectures of which Nt books are 'canonical' Guess which is missing?:

Then of the New Testament there are four Gospels only, for the rest have false titles and are harmful. The Manicheans also wrote a Gospel according to Thomas, which being smeared with the fragrance of the name 'Gospel' destroys the souls of those who are rather simple-minded. Receive also the Acts of the Twelve Apostles; and in addition to these the seven Catholic Epistles of James, Peter, John, and Jude; and as a seal upon them all, and the latest work of disciples, the fourteen Epistles of Paul.
But let all the rest be put aside in a secondary rank. And whatever books are not read in the churches, do not read these even by yourself, as you have already heard [me say concerning the Old Testament apocrypha]

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I'll have to remember the above during the next "Luther tossed out books of the NT!" thread and that was a 16th century deal.

Which of course he did not, and treated Revelation and Hebrews much in the same vein as Cyril of Jerusalem. And the epistle of James had an early sketchy history as well.

The early church theologians treated the books of the NT it seems in the same way the Hebrews treated TaNaKh. Meaning there were levels of authority for determining doctrine. Torah comes first, then the Prophets, then the Writings.

From another similar thread.

Here is a snip from the earliest know Christian liturgy.

It comes from Syria.

The Priest says this prayer quietly:: - O mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, beseech for me the only-begotten Son, who was born of thee, to forgive me my offences and my sins, and to accept from my feeble and sinful hands this sacrifice which my weakness offers upon this altar, through thy intercession for me, O holy mother.

The liturgy itself bears the name of Addai who was a student of St. Thomas, sent into Syria and Iraq.

The Syrian Church could have made it up... but that won't change the timeline.

Forgive me...

amariselle said:

Actually, the angel Gabriel did not "pray" to Mary. Angels serve and glorify God alone. Nor did the angel Gabriel "ask" Mary to do anything, he came as a messenger from God and conveyed God's will, to which Mary submitted reverently and humbly.

To even suggest that an angel would ever pray to a mere human being is far more than just a little unBiblical.

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You would be wrong, in that praying is an act of asking. Angel Gabriel asked Mary to be the mother of the most High. Otherwise, it would be a command, which it wasn't. God did not demand that Mary carry His Son, he asked, prayed. Otherwise, she would not have been given the opportunity to say Yes.

amariselle said:

Really? Paul saying that a person needs to be "handed over to Satan" is not a judgement?

Okay.

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Well, he says he's speaking for God, so it's God's judgement.

amariselle said:

Well, that's certainly not at all prideful...

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Nope. I humbled myself and accepted the truth.

PeaceByJesus said:

What?! You mean the supreme standard for what the original Christian beliefs were is not the only wholly inspired substantive word of God, but the uninspired record of Catholic accretion of traditions of men?

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Not quite. The Supreme standard is that God speaks in more ways than just what's written in the Bible. But, you know, the content of the Bible is, itself, what you call 'tradition of men'.

Even the veracity of the oral preaching of the apostles was subject to testing by Scripture, not vice versa, let alone the writings of uninspired men who could err, and disagree with each other (and Rome), and even abuse Scripture (as Jerome).

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Paul says to test against Scripture, and that's what's true. But he also says to Timothy to hold fast to the traditions I have taught you.

Indeed, as warned, in addition to false teaching in the church.

Which is a mere assertion, which those who sat in the seat of Moses could have used (and essentially did) against a band of itinerant preachers who reproved them by Scripture and established their claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power.

On this issue I can present over 200 prayers to Heaven by believers, and with not one of them addressed to anyone by the Lord, and instruction on prayers which tells us to address Him, with only prayers to pagans making supplication to any other invisible being in heaven, and with quite a substantial record of what the NT church mainly believed, manifesting that prayer to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) was not one of them, despite this being a most basic common Catholic practice.

This is more a matter of deduction of the obvious than it is your attempted support of PTCBIH that is a matter of interpretation, requiring extrapolation after extrapolation as if we were trying to argue for pets being in Heaven.


Really? Then read Acts thru Revelation and tell me where you see PTCBIH. But no, it must be that you are arguing that uninspired post-apostolic men and ultimately your church is the supreme authority, based on upon the premise that the stewards of Divine revelation must be the faithful interpreters of it. Which in principal invalidates the NT church itself.

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In Revelation it shows the prayers of the faithful rising to those alive in heaven.

The Mormons and like cults claim the same, and faced with the absence of even one prayer to anyone else in Heaven by believers in over 200 prayers to Heaven, the appeal to another stream of revelation is the classic Catholic recourse.

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The difference between the Mormons, the Protestants and all the other 33,000 denominations of Christianity is that they are all later than the apostolic age. The Catholic Church began on the first Pentecost and was guided by the Holy Spirit, as Jesus declared.

However, men like the apostles did preach the formal word of God orally, but could speak as wholly inspired of God, and also provide new public revelation, neither of which RC popes claim to do, and yet can even require belief in an event which was so lacking in valid testimony from early tradition that Rome's scholars opposed it as being apostolic doctrine.

You can believe what you must, but there are zero examples of prayer to anyone else in Heaven by believers in over 200 prayers to Heaven in Scripture.

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Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 – this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 – we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 – therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 – Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 – God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 – Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor. 12:26 – when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 – now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.

1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 – we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

2 Peter 1:4 – since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 – we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 – in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 – in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

PeaceByJesus said:

The analogy of your opinion is apt. SS preachers can enjoin obedience to the oral preaching of the word, under the premise that it is Scripture, as that of the apostles was, but as said, men like the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God, and also provide new public revelation, neither of which RC popes claim to do.

Meanwhile, what even the apostles orally preached was subject to testing by the wholly inspired written word of God, and not vice versa. For it is manifest that writing is God's means of preservation. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15,18-19; Ps. 19:7-11; 119; John 20:31; Acts 17:11; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15;Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Lk. 24:44,45; Acts 17:11)

• And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book.. (Exodus 17:14)
• And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. (Exodus 34:1)
• And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. (Exodus 34:27)
• And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing.. (Deuteronomy 10:4)
• And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law,..(Deuteronomy 27:3)
"Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever: (Isaiah 30:8; cf. Job 19:23) "
• And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: (Deuteronomy 17:18)
• And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law, when thou art passed over, that thou mayest go in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, a land that floweth with milk and honey; as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee. (Deuteronomy 27:3)
• " And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, (Deuteronomy 31:24) "
• This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. (Joshua 1:8)
• "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:31) "
• Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (Revelation 1:19)
• "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Revelation 20:12) "
• "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15) "

As is abundantly evidenced, as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

And it was not the veracity of Scripture that subject to testing by oral preaching/tradition, but oral preaching was subject to testing by Scripture:

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)
And it was not because oral tradition preserved the Word of God that brought about a national revival, but because of the wholly inspired-of-God written word:

And Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hilkiah delivered the book to Shaphan. (2 Chronicles 34:15)
Then Shaphan the scribe told the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath given me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king. And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the law, that he rent his clothes. (2 Chronicles 34:18-19)

Nor was it passed-down oral tradition that was ever lauded like the written word of God, (Ps. 19:7-11; 119) and was the authority the Lord reproved the devil and religious leadership by, and substantiated His clams by, and opened the minds of the disciples to. (Mt. 4; 22; Lk. 24:44,45)

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. (Matthew 4:5-7)

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:44-45)

Scripture is the only wholly inspired substantive transcendent standard, to which all men are to submit.

And looking through the God-inspired record of what know the NT church believed (Acts onward), we see that the Catholic distinctives are not there , but are contrary to it.

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And praying to saints in heaven is, too:
Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (“Catholic”) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the “communion of saints.” There cannot be a “communion” if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 – this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.

1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 – we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.

Rom. 8:35-39 – therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 – Jesus converses with “deceased” Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.

Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 – God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.

Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.

John 15:1-6 – Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.

1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.

1 Cor. 12:26 – when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.

1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 – now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!

Heb. 12:1: we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses. The “cloud of witnesses” refers to the saints who are not only watching us from above but cheering us on in our race to heaven.

1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 – we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.

2 Peter 1:4 – since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.

1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 – we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:

Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 – in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called “saints.”

Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 – in these verses, we also see that “saints” also refer to those in heaven who united with us.

Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.

OrthodoxyUSA said:

Not everything that Rome did was wrong, and yes they did many bad things. However, not every tradition was concocted. Compare their worship to the Eastern Churches from which they inherited the "Holy Traditions". "Holy Traditions" are those that come to us as revealed by Christ and His Apostles.

Where we find all of the ancient Apostolic Churches agreeing we can be certain that it is the faith once delivered to the Saints.

Not everything that a Christian would want to know about Christianity is written in the NT scriptures... for instance, it was the daily habit (multiple times a day) of Christ and the Apostles to pray the Psaltar. That's why we have the psalms in our bible. But hardly anybody in the west does that today.

Much love.

Forgive me...

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Priests do, and some committed laity, I for one.

redleghunter said:

Yes I was aware of Revelation, however did not know the EO church actually called any NT book deuterocanonical. It's interesting to look at the development of the canon in the East. For example the Ethiopian Orthodox contains the largest canon including 1Enoch.



I'll have to remember the above during the next "Luther tossed out books of the NT!" thread and that was a 16th century deal.

Which of course he did not, and treated Revelation and Hebrews much in the same vein as Cyril of Jerusalem. And the epistle of James had an early sketchy history as well.

The early church theologians treated the books of the NT it seems in the same way the Hebrews treated TaNaKh. Meaning there were levels of authority for determining doctrine. Torah comes first, then the Prophets, then the Writings.

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I'm using the term deuterocanonical as a way to dinstinguish those books actually read publicly in Liturgy(canonical) with those sanctioned to be read outside of liturgy(worthy of reading; deuterocanonical) and those completely rejected which were called apocrypha. There are a number of ancient canons in Orthodoxy which list the books. The varying list will include 1 &2 Clement, Didache, Hermas.
The best manuscripts that represent the eastern (byzantine)canon are probably codex Sinaiticus and codex Alexandrinus.
And yes the Ethiopian canon differs from all others. This difference from their Coptic counterparts can probably be traced to the fact they had their own (Aksum) Kingdom while the Alexandrians were within the Romans Empire, thus less influence on a standardized table of contents.