Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

amariselle said:

It is rather interesting, many will likely just dismiss it as "conspiracy theory" however.

Click to expand...

It is strange. My heart and my prayers go out to them.


...

Jason0047 said:

What would be better is if you can find a verse that actually shows us where believers pray to dead saints is actually at. I do not see this in the New Testament.

Click to expand...

Jesus spoke with Moses at the transfiguration.

How about the pagan fish hats? I do not see that one either.

I mean, are you not curious. Try doing a Google image search using the keywords:

"pagan fish hats in babylon and RCC."

Then do one for sunworship and the RCC.

Pretty scary stuff.

...

Click to expand...

I have better things to do.

Then there is the upside cross thing in Catholicism. Why?
Satanists use this symbol!!! People who are in rockbands and worship the devil use this symbol. Why associate with that same symbol!? It is insanity. I would want to steer as far away from anything that is like what the bad guys do. So it makes no sense why the Catholic Church would imitate these things.


...

kepha31 said:

I don't trusty your quotes because they are incomplete, out of context, and you give obscure sources that can't be found.

Click to expand...

I quoted theological texts and gave ebook version links. The page numbers are cited in the quote.

I'm sure you understand quotes are just that. If you want to show me the quotes are out of context please point it out using the original source documents I linked.

If not I will consider this a hand wave that you just can't handle the truth of what Newman, Manning and Ratzinger are quoted as actually saying.

kepha31 said:

Do I have to repost what you intentionally left out?

Click to expand...

You posted what I posted and changed the subject. Go ahead repost it and I will show you I did not leave it out.

kepha31 said:

You are another angry anti-Catholic straining to use theologians as weapons against the Church

Click to expand...

NEWMAN, MANNING, RATZINGER.

Giants of RC post Trent theology and that is straining. Got it.

PeaceB said:

Jesus spoke with Moses at the transfiguration.

Click to expand...

#1. Jesus did not pray to Moses up in Heaven.
#2. Jesus is God incarnate and can talk with whomever He pleases; But this is not a situation of traditional prayer taking place here. This was God the Father making this event possible. Jesud did not call upon Moses and Elijah on bended knee.
#3. When the disciples tried to interact with Moses and Elijah, they were rebuked by God the Father and they were told to listen to His Son (Jesus).

You said:

I have better things to do.

Click to expand...

No you don't. You just don't want to see it. Are you afraid?


...

PeaceB said:

Jesus spoke with Moses at the transfiguration.

Click to expand...

Jesus told his disciples that was a vision

Jason0047 said:

#1. Jesus did not pray to Moses up in Heaven.
#2. Jesus is God incarnate and can talk with whomever He pleases; But this is not a situation of traditional prayer taking place here. This was God the Father making this event possible. Jesud did not call upon Moses and Elijah on bended knee.
#3. When the disciples tried to interact with Moses and Elijah, they were rebuked by God the Father and they were told to listen to His Son (Jesus).



No you don't. You just don't want to see it. Are you afraid?


...

Click to expand...

Yeah. I am shaking in my boots.

Jason0047 said:

Then there is the upside cross thing in Catholicism. Why?
Satanists use this symbol!!! People who are in rockbands and worship the devil use this symbol. Why associate with that same symbol!? It is insanity. I would want to steer as far away from anything that is like what the bad guys do. So it makes no sense why the Catholic Church would imitate these things.


...

Click to expand...

Their answer for that is because Peter was crucified upside down.

Doesn't really explain why the cross itself is upside down, however.

Edit: In regard to it also being a satanic symbol. I'll need to do more research on this.

PeaceB said:

Yeah. I am shaking in my boots.

Click to expand...

Then you have no reason to not do a Google Image Search then on these things.

Do a Google Image Search on:

#1. Pagan fish hats Babylon and RCC
#2. Pagan sun worship and RCC
#3. Upside down cross in satanism and RCC

I mean, stop and think for a moment, Jesus condemned those who were in long flowing robes and loved to be greeted (Luke 20:46).
We are told to call no man father here upon this Earth.
We are told not to contact familar spirits (i.e. the dead).
Exodus 20 says you shall:

(a) Not make a graven image
(b) Bow down to that graven image.

It doesn't matter the reason. You are not to do these two things. You can say, "Yeah, but I was thinking about eating ice cream and playing with my dog fluffy as I did these things so it doesn't count." No. You are not two do these two things! It does not matter! Read Exodus 20 again.

I mean, there are so many red flags in the RCC, it makes one think they were in a Russian airport.


...

amariselle said:

Their answer for that is because Peter was crucified upside down.

Doesn't really explain why the cross itself is upside down, however.

Edit: In regard to it also being a satanic symbol. I'll need to do more research on this.

Click to expand...

Yes, I was already aware that they believed this. It does not carry any weight or water in my book because the obvious bad guys use this symbol as one of their key occult symbols.

As for researching this symbol: I think a quick image search is all one needs to see the connection. I would be careful to do a study on evil things for too long. I strive to always fill my mind with primarily good things from God's Word and in loving God and loving others (Philippians 4:8).


...

Jason0047 said:

Yes, I was already aware that they believed this. It does not carry any weight or water in my book because the obvious bad guys use this symbol as one of their key occult symbols.

As for researching this symbol: I think a quick image search is all one needs to see the connection. I would be careful to do a study on evil things for too long. I strive to always fill my mind with primarily good things from God's Word and in loving God and loving others (Philippians 4:8).


...

Click to expand...

True.

It does seem though that the inverted cross did not become associated with Satanism until comparatively recently.

Interesting though.

But yes, we should focus on good thing, things of God.

Jason0047 said:

Then you have no reason to not do a Google Image Search then on these things.

Do a Google Image Search on:

#1. Pagan fish hats Babylon and RCC
#2. Pagan sun worship and RCC
#3. Upside down cross in satanism and RCC

I mean, stop and think for a moment, Jesus condemned those who were in long flowing robes and loved to be greeted (Luke 20:46).
We are told to call no man father here upon this Earth.
We are told not to contact familar spirits (i.e. the dead).
Exodus 20 says you shall:

(a) Not make a graven image
(b) Bow down to that graven image.

It doesn't matter the reason. You are not to do these two things. You can say, "Yeah, but I was thinking about eating ice cream and playing with my dog fluffy as I did these things so it doesn't count." No. You are not two do these two things! It does not matter! Read Exodus 20 again.

I mean, there are so many red flags in the RCC, it makes one think they were in a Russian airport.


...

Click to expand...

That is nothing I have not heard before.

At least be unique in your anti-Catholiciism. Spice it up a bit.

PeaceB said:

Can you be less specific?

Click to expand...

If you click on the link, a specific definition is provided.

PanDeVida said:

Praying to Mary or to any Saint in Heaven

By Tim Staples

Click to expand...

"Each one of them has or is receiving the incense, which are the prayers (that's plural) of the saints... "

"So in other words, each one of them is receiving multiple prayers from multiple saints... "

Holding and receiving don't mean the same thing. They are not synonymous.

Tim Staples also makes a huge assumption here.

"...Multiple prayers from multiple saints, coming up from the earth, and they take them to God."

How does he know they are taking them to God and not simply holding the prayers that are directed to God? Nowhere in Revelation 5 does it say they came holding the bowls full of incense.
The angels in Revelation 8:3-5 are given the incense at the altar, they do not arrive with it.

Finally, none of this answers the two questions Tim Staples had for Catholics at the beginning of the video.

amariselle said:

If you really wanted to know what I was actually saying you would have needed to read and address my post in it's entirety. Taking the first sentence alone and fixating on it ignored the entire point. (And led you to suggest I was quoting verbatim, well known heresy) No small accusation by the way.

Here is what I actually said:
(Notice, you didn't even quote a complete sentence, just the first part of one)



Next time, please address what I actually said, in its entirety, or feel free to ask questions if you still don't understand what I'm saying.

God bless.

Click to expand...

OK.

amariselle said:

She is the mother of Christ the man, (that is, His humanity/physical body), not of Christ as God. Jesus, as God, existed "in the beginning" and is the Creator of all things, as Scripture plainly states.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (John 1:1-5)

We can see, from the above Scripture, that Jesus, as God, is Mary's Creator, Mary did not create Him or conceive His diety in her womb, as He always existed as God, without beginning or end.

Click to expand...

To argue that the Virgin Mary could not have given birth to God but only to the man Jesus, because as the uncreated God He existed before Mary; one would separate the Theandric God-man Jesus into a human and a Divine person. The error of this thinking lies in the failure to understand the intricacies of Christology and the doctrine of Incarnation. This was the subject of the Third Ecumenical Council that took place in Ephesus in 431 A.D.

The Council decreed that Christ was one person, not two separate "people": fully God and fully man, with a rational soul and body. The Virgin Mary is Theotokos because she gave birth not to a mere man but to God as a man. The union of the two natures of Christ took place in such a fashion that one did not disturb the other.

The Council also declared the text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed to be complete and forbade any additional change to it.

John 1:14 the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
(by being born of the Virgin Mary Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 2)

FenderTL5 said:

This was the subject of the Third Ecumenical Council that took place in Ephesus in 431 A.D.

Click to expand...

A very old argument indeed.

Forgive me...

redleghunter said:

If you click on the link, a specific definition is provided.

Click to expand...

Not exactly. I am not about to read an entire website to find it.

Can you post the definition you want to use here?

PeaceB said:

That is nothing I have not heard before.

At least be unique in your anti-Catholiciism. Spice it up a bit.

Click to expand...

But did you look at the images? A picture sometimes says a thousand words.


...

amariselle said:

True.

It does seem though that the inverted cross did not become associated with Satanism until comparatively recently.

Interesting though.

But yes, we should focus on good thing, things of God.

Click to expand...

Just because history does not record something does not mean such a practice did not happen in the ancient past. As far as we know it appears to be a recent thing, but even the idea of the supposed story of Peter being crucified upside down is not a good one to imitate because Peter is not our Lord and Savior and it was making a mockery of the cross upon which Jesus died. What is odd is that the Catholic church at one time condemned a man who was using the cross in an upside down way.

Here is a quote from another poster on another Christian Forum:

Source:
When did the "upside down cross" become a symbol of anti-Christianity?

This suggests that the Catholics were not using the upside cross prior to this event and they also have taken on this upside down cross recently, as well. They simply could have added to their history books that they had always did this. For just because something is reported to be written in history, does not always mean that it is true. For let God be true and let every man be a liar.


...

Jason0047 said:

Just because history does not record something does not mean such a practice did not happen in the ancient past. As far as we know it appears to be a recent thing, but even the idea of the supposed story of Peter being crucified upside down is not a good one to imitate because Peter is not our Lord and Savior and it was making a mockery of the cross upon which Jesus died. What is odd is that the Catholic church at one time condemned a man who was using the cross in an upside down way.

Here is a quote from another poster on another Christian Forum:

Eugène Vintras (1807–1875) may be the first to use the inverted cross in a distinctly anti-Christian way. He was a Gnostic revivalist operating in France during the middle of the 19th century. He preached the end of the age, and claimed to have received messages from Michael the Archangel and that he himself was a reincarnation of Elijah. He was condemned by the Vatican, and subsequently began using an upside-down cross:

Vintras, following further attacks from the Church, adopted the inverted cross as the symbol of the new dispensation of which he was the prophet, inverted because the Reign of the Suffering Christ had been superseded by the Reign of the Holy Spirit of Love.

His masses reportedly included "chalices magically overflowing with blood," and occultist Eliphas Levi considered the inverted cross that Vintras wore as "indicative of satanic influences"​

Source:
When did the "upside down cross" become a symbol of anti-Christianity?

This suggests that the Catholics were not using the upside cross prior to this event and they also have taken on this upside down cross recently, as well. They simply could have added to their history books that they had always did this. For just because something is reported to be written in history, does not always mean that it is true. For let God be true and let every man be a liar.


...

Click to expand...

I agree. Revisionist history is a well known fact.